<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">to say his presence is more important (which i disagree with)is one thing, but to say that he isn't a top 8 player in the game today is just flat out stupid. name me 8 players who are currently better than Wade.</div> Tim Duncan Healthy Shaquille Oneal Kevin Garnett Kobe Bryant Lebron James Dirk Nowitzki Steve Nash Healthy Tracy McGrady I'd take all of them over Wade.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan proved he could score 20 ppg at age 40 which simply amazes me. Lets not forget he averaged 37.1 ppg in one season scoring 3000+ points. I think he would literally destroy the competition today, if Wade gets as many calls as he does Jordan would live on the free throw line. </div> no one is arguing that Wade is better than Jordan...and Jordan got away just as much if not more then any other player that has ever played the game, don't bring the ref argument into this.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Duncan Healthy Shaquille Oneal Kevin Garnett Kobe Bryant Lebron James Dirk Nowitzki Steve Nash Healthy Tracy McGrady I'd take all of them over Wade.</div> Okay the same Dirk who didn't show up in the finals last year, the same T-Mac (although I love him) who doesn't take it to the rack and has never made it out the first round, the same Lebron who can't shoot a FT if his life depended on it, the same Shaq who avg. about 13 points in the finals last year and at times looked as if Zo was outplaying him, the same KG who doesn't have "it"...seriously do you watch basketball?
<div class="quote_poster">~Fatality~ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Tim Duncan Healthy Shaquille Oneal Kevin Garnett Kobe Bryant Lebron James Dirk Nowitzki Steve Nash Healthy Tracy McGrady I'd take all of them over Wade.</div> I agree with The Dream, that list makes no sence at all. I repeat people don't even acknowledge the fact Wades a champion. If Lebron, Nash, or Garnett would have a ring and become Finals MVP then this wouldn't even be a question.
<div class="quote_poster">THE DREAM Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">no one is arguing that Wade is better than Jordan...and Jordan got away just as much if not more then any other player that has ever played the game, don't bring the ref argument into this.</div> What the hell are you talking about? First I used Wade as a example because he gets to the line alot, I'm saying if Wade can do it then surely Jordan could get to the line alot more. He would average over 30ppg, the thread says how would Jordan fair against Kobe, Wade, or Lebron. I say he would have better numbers then all of them.
<div class="quote_poster">Miami Flash City Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">When Shaq was out we didn't have Eddie Jones (who's doing most of the damage currently), or any of our important role players. And also have to take into consideration Antoine Walker..was playing the worst basketball of his career. You can't blame Wade for our record while Shaq was out because he was putting up insane numbers and we still won some big games. If you ask anyone who saw all those games we played without Shaq they will tell you Wade was incredible, win or lose he did everything he could for us and he took over in many important games. ???? Lets go back two seasons ago 2nd round of the playoffs vs. Wizards, Shaq was out for the series and we swept the Wizards with Wade scoring 40 + points in 2 or 3 games in only his second season in the league. Also how about Wades rookie year without Shaq or any big offensive power when he destroyed the Hornets and led us to Game 6 in the 2nd round with his play. I agree completely that Shaq's presence helps the team more than Wades, but saying Wade can't win without "specialists" on his team just doesn't make sence considering what hes accomplished before. Fatality- WHAT??!! If anything Wade is underated, just because he knows how to get to the line people are knocking him for that and aren't giving him credit for his scoring or his championship for that matter. It's ridicilous, my reminder is to just watch how Wade dominates games, its not all the free throw line, Wade has put the Heat on his back plenty occasions and he's proven time and time again he's a true supertar. Now as for how M.J would fair against today's superstars, I think he would still dominate and be on top of the league. But he would still have to adjust because of today's NBA rules and style of play. He wouldn't be the best by a huuge margin, but he would still be #1 I think. Kobe Bryant is on MJ's level in my opinion but I still don't think he's there yet. The young stars like Wade/Lebron both have a chance to be on Jordan's level as well with how they've been playing in their short careers. As for comparisons, I would say Wade has more a Jordan style of play taking it in and such. Kobe has more of Jordans shooting game; his outside jumper has helped him become one of the greatest scorers of all time.</div> No one is saying Wade wasn't playing amazing basketball, but I'll have to repeat it for the 3rd time, what he does on the court is easier to replace, than what Shaq brings to the court. "We didn't have Eddie Jones." Who cares? A player of Eddie Jones caliber does not make or break a team. Antoine Walker was playing terrible because Shaq wasn't on the court. He doesn't have the same spacing, and defenders can pressure him more when Shaq isn't on the court. Maybe you're confusing the criteria again. In a 7 game series which one player would you want to build a team around. The odds favor you heavily when you build your team from the outside in. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><font size=""3"">I agree completely that Shaq's presence helps the team more than Wades,</font> but saying Wade can't win without "specialists" on his team just doesn't make sence considering what hes accomplished before.</div> This is exactly my argument, which is why I'd take Shaq ahead of Wade if I needed one player right now to win a 7 game series. It doesn't mean Shaq is individually better than Wade, it just means it would be harder to replace Shaq and what he gives a team, than what Wade does for a team. Wade cannot win without specialists on the court, no one can win a game or series by themselves. It's not a hard concept to understand. If you put Shaq or Duncan on any team in the league, that team would instantly become a playoff contender. You can't say the same for Wade.
<div class="quote_poster">Miami Flash City Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I agree with The Dream, that list makes no sence at all. I repeat people don't even acknowledge the fact Wades a champion. If Lebron, Nash, or Garnett would have a ring and become Finals MVP then this wouldn't even be a question.</div> LeBron Nash Garnett have never had Shaq on their team.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">His footwork in the post is more polished than Jordan's. It allows Kobe to have more counter moves once the defender reacts. Kobe has more versatility in his mid-range game than Jordan had. Kobe is better at finishing with his left hand than Jordan ever was.</div> Jordan was a better motivator. Jordan was a better passer and did it more often. Jordan made his teammates better, far more than Kobe does. Jordan was a better defender...yes i know Kobe is a good defender, Jordan was just better. Jordan was a better rebounder. Jordan was more clutch...yes I know kobe is clutch...Jordan just more so. Jordan carried his team to the promise land many many more times. Kobe was often times not the most dominant player on his own team, let alone the league or ever. Kobe is great obviously, but he is in no way as good as Jordan
<div class="quote_poster">02civic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan was a better motivator. Jordan was a better passer and did it more often. Jordan made his teammates better, far more than Kobe does. Jordan was a better defender...yes i know Kobe is a good defender, Jordan was just better. Jordan was a better rebounder. Jordan was more clutch...yes I know kobe is clutch...Jordan just more so. Jordan carried his team to the promise land many many more times. Kobe was often times not the most dominant player on his own team, let alone the league or ever. Kobe is great obviously, but he is in no way as good as Jordan</div> We're discussing who is the better scorer, not player. Everyone pretty much agrees (including myself) Jordan was the better player. However, I think Kobe is a more skilled player on offense than Jordan was.
Jordan was clever, he could rack points up..has a career shooting percentage of 50 percent...3 pts 33 percent. Kobe (as of) is a better 3 pt shooter..but MJ was a dominate shooter, he created his shot every time...Jordan's career was more intense than Kobe's...many stars back in his time hated him because he knew how to win.
<div class="quote_poster">23MJordan23 Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan was clever, he could rack points up..has a career shooting percentage of 50 percent...3 pts 33 percent. Kobe (as of) is a better 3 pt shooter..but MJ was a dominate shooter, he created his shot every time...Jordan's career was more intense than Kobe's...many stars back in his time hated him because he knew how to win.</div> Kobe played in Jordan's era, he's a Laker, everyone in the league brings their A game when the Lakers come to town. Jordan was very clever, and worked hard off the ball to get baskets. I'm not going to downplay anything Jordan has done in his career and on the court, he is the best player ever. But when we're talking about a more skilled offensive player, I tip my hat to Kobe. He's more polished and fundamentally sound than Jordan ever was. There's so many intracacies in his game you just don't notice or appreciate because he makes it look so easy.
i agree with the fact that Kobe is more fundamentally sound than Jordan was. Shape, how would you rate Kobe's passing ability compared to Jordans?
<div class="quote_poster">authentiq Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">i agree with the fact that Kobe is more fundamentally sound than Jordan was. Shape, how would you rate Kobe's passing ability compared to Jordans?</div> Great question, I don't think either excels at it, but I think Jordan was better at finding open players in traffic, but Kobe is more creative in the open court.
<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not making that assumption, I'm pointing out the Heat's supporting cast has less dropoffs in production than San Antonio's roster. The Spurs supporting cast does play better defense, because of Duncan anchoring the middle. If you can calculate the weighted average for every player on the roster, I'm sure Miami's average would be higher. Unfornately Hollinger's rankings only show 194 players.</div> I did it for every player, actually (not including Duncan and Wade). Check Knickerblogger's stat page and click the Download Data link. If you have Excel, you can see all the player's stats.
I think we're moving away from the main purpose of this topic, which should've been about how these 4 (MJ, Kobe, LeBron, Wade) compare against each other as players. Dont even bring accomplishments into it, at the end of the day, accomplishments, in reality, mean very little (even though they are valued so highly by the critics). Robert Horry for example has 6 rings, but is he a great player? No, he isnt. Steve Nash has 2 MVP awards, does anyone consider him a HOF player? No, they dont. I dont care if Jordan has 100 rings, it means absolutley nothing when comparing him as a player to the likes of Kobe Bryant. MJ was great to me, not because he won 6 rings, 5 MVP awards etc. etc., but because of how he performed on the court, and until now, no one has been able to top his stellar game, except for Kobe Bryant. Jordans game was uncanny, the things he did were un explainable, thats why he is a legend, Kobe has shown he can do all of what Jordan did, plus more (as Shape explained in one of his early posts), he's taken a worse team than Jordan ever had to the playoffs in the last 2 seasons, he comes up big when he needs too, Jordan never had as many big performances as Kobe has had. LeBron and Wade are nothing like Jordan, Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan you'll get.
Wade is like the early year of MJ when MJ hadn't mastered fadeaways yet. He had to drive to the basket to score and draw some fouls. Kobe now looks like MJ in prime years when no one can stop his fadeaways...while he can also drive to the baskets too. Lebron is just a different type of player...
<div class="quote_poster">Brian Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan and Kobe are pretty much equal now in my books. Maybe Jordan still has a slight edge, but Kobe still has tons of basketball left in the tank</div> OL HELL NA'LL! Wade is nowhere near Kobe. Wade's a great player, but Kobe's already HALL OF FAME. Wade's still, well um, just a great player at this point. Wade's mannerisms are more like Jordan (facial expression, reaction etc...). But his game favors a point guard more than a pure shooting guard. Jordan's patent move was his fadeaway, Wade's is still a work in progress. Kobe's fadeaway is equal to MJ's at this point, if not more effective.
"Kobe played in Jordan's era, he's a Laker, everyone in the league brings their A game when the Lakers come to town." Kobe played in the late Jordan Era. He started in 1996 - 97..The Jordan Era stopped after 1997 - 98 season....Kobe has little to no experience as to what Michael Jordan experienced....The Bad Boy pistons, Larry Bird and the Celtics, Even Julius Erving and the Sixers...Imagine If Kobe had to face Magic, Kareem and the Lakers back in the day...and Charles Barkley and the Suns...Charles was awesome in his prime. Kobe probably will not experience anything like what Jordan experienced.
Here's a video of Jordan vs Kobe back in his rookie year: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC5sW1Xnj3g Watching this video helps me conclude that Jordan couldn't handle Kobe NOW. He couldn't even stay in front of him then. Kobe was givin it to Jordan for a sec lol
