Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! Recently Steve Francis said it was:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>For perhaps the first time in his career, Francis - it would be remiss of me to not mention his 'friendship' with Cuttino Mobley - said something intelligent this week:"In other sports, there are incidents that are way worse than basketball," the Knicks guard said. "So many worse things happen every game or four or five times a year, but because there are more black players in the NBA, it's under the microscope more than baseball or hockey." In talking with a friend yesterday, I brought up a classic baseball fight from yesteryear, 75-year-old Nolan Ryan vs. Robin Ventura. There have been many-a-basebrawl that have garnered National headlines - Michael Barrett cold-cocking AJ Pierzynski last summer? - but an old man getting a young kid in a headlock and unleashing a flurry of punches is pure classic. In fact, Ryan probably connected with more punches that night (three? four?) than any NBA fight has ever seen. Don't seem to recall the word thug or the phrase 'black eye for the sport' being used in that instance.</div>linkNow hey, I know it's Francis. I also know it's the racism card. Hey, when a white guy punches some black guy and it's automatically a hate crime, I'm pretty mind-boggled there. However, in this case, I think he's got a point.Stuff like this happens in EVERY sport. In fact, I'd be willing to say that this happens in other sports more than in the NBA by quite a bit. Bench-clearing brawls always happen in baseball. Just this year, there was that ridiculous brawl between Miami and FIU (right team?). Hockey is, well, hockey, and even things like this have been happening in NASCAR lately. So why exactly when something like this happens in NBA, it's such a "black eye" for the sport? Why are the suspensions so harsh. I can see getting a suspension for smacking a guy in the face, but 15 games? Meh.Another incident that happened in baseball was when one Texas Rangers pitcher hit an Angels batter after charging the mound. That's not the part that gets me... after the two got a few swings in, Mark DeRosa (Rangers Third Baseman at the time) came and tackled the Angels player. How many games do you think DeRosa was suspended for? Boom, a big fat zero. (which, by the way, was very reasonable)Y'see, I'm not saying that it's racist to look down on the incident. It wasn't good for basketball, and it's not something that should be condoned. I just feel like everytime they hand down a judgement in the NBA, it is because they feel they have to clear up that they won't take sh*t just because they are the self-implied "Nigger Basketball Association" (I use this term, because it's how they act). Let's face it. Fighting happens. Could the players have handled the situation better? Most definitely. But I think that Stern and the other heads of the NBA could have handled it better, as well. I think they cause more bad publicity by making a big deal out of nothing, really. When something bad happens, give a fair and reasonable suspension, and move on. Don't try to teach your players a lesson.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! I think the answer lies within your post. In hockey, you are supposed to fight. That is a main draw for the fans, and so that sport should probably be discluded from the argument.In baseball, it is normal to have several bench clearouts per season. That's why people don't care as much about it.In basketball however, big-time fights are pretty rare. That's why when players get into them, it's a big deal.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! Well... Carmelo threw a cheap shot (at a white guy), and Robinson had a star role in pulling off a marevelous submission move when he got tackled, and punched the guy that tackled him. Yes, "blacks" were the stars in this showdown. It can be speculated that racism was involved in the suspensions. But think about it. The number of fights like this lately (as in 'past few years') has been increasing in the NBA. Stern is trying to be, well, stern. He's taking it seriously. The Pacers brawl. Ron Artest. 70 games. Racism? He deserved it. Carmelo restarted the fight. He pulled a hit-and-run. That's why he got the more serious punishment. It was over, but he wasn't done yet. He kept going, and he singled himself out in doing so. If he didn't make such a ridiculous choice, he might not have had any suspension at all. Are you seeing this a little more clearly now? Yes, Francis has a point, to some extent. The NBA does have the spotlight on the players when fights happen, and they hold the players up by their throats to make sure they don't fight again. But I don't think it's because they're black. If you wanted to blame this on somebody, blame it on Artest. It is rare that players fight with fans. That singled out the whole NBA when he did that. Stern knew that fans would be dissatisfied with anything less than what he gave Artest for his actions. He also knew that the image of the NBA was at stake. That could be where Francis has a good point: the face of the NBA has a lot of black on it. But if you want a reason to be mad at Stern for these punishments, call him paranoid, not racist. Stern is just being a stern person, and doesn't want to have the NBA thought of as a league of hot-head players. So he's doing everything possible to discourage fights. I personally don't see much wrong with that. Although 10 games for Carmelo and 5 for Nate and Francis might have been better, just because people think he's racist now. But Francis, he's not punishing you so 'harshly' because he's racist. He's doing it because he has the 'league image' in mind. So call him paranoid, and save our country a lot of arguing and finger-pointing.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! [quote name='KMart?' post='230840' date='Dec 21 2006, 02:20 PM']I think the answer lies within your post. In hockey, you are supposed to fight. That is a main draw for the fans, and so that sport should probably be discluded from the argument.In baseball, it is normal to have several bench clearouts per season. That's why people don't care as much about it.In basketball however, big-time fights are pretty rare. That's why when players get into them, it's a big deal.[/quote]Okay, so... for example. A player hits someone hard in hockey. They fight. A player fouls someone in basketball. They fight. I understand that there's a difference, but they make it a bigger deal than it should be. OH HOLY CRAP THERE'S SOME PLAYERS WRESTLING ON THE GROUND. That's not going to give a black eye to the sport. Give me a break.[quote name='LiveAtTheHardwood' post='230842' date='Dec 21 2006, 02:21 PM']But think about it. The number of fights like this lately (as in 'past few years') has been increasing in the NBA. Stern is trying to be, well, stern. He's taking it seriously. The Pacers brawl. Ron Artest. 70 games.[/quote]Are they really increasing? I recall someone in another topic saying there were fights in the NBA all the time back in the day. I think we are given the perception that fights are worse now because of Stern and the media.[quote name='LiveAtTheHardwood' post='230842' date='Dec 21 2006, 02:21 PM']Racism? He deserved it. Carmelo restarted the fight. He pulled a hit-and-run. That's why he got the more serious punishment. It was over, but he wasn't done yet. He kept going, and he singled himself out in doing so. If he didn't make such a ridiculous choice, he might not have had any suspension at all.[/quote]My point is not that just Carmelo received a ridiculous suspension or anything like that. I think the punishment was a bit excessive across the board and presented as excessive by Stern to teach them a lesson. What lesson? Stop acting black? Once again, why is an excessive suspension needed in this league and not in others?[quote name='LiveAtTheHardwood' post='230842' date='Dec 21 2006, 02:21 PM']But I don't think it's because they're black. If you wanted to blame this on somebody, blame it on Artest. It is rare that players fight with fans. That singled out the whole NBA when he did that. Stern knew that fans would be dissatisfied with anything less than what he gave Artest for his actions. He also knew that the image of the NBA was at stake. That could be where Francis has a good point: the face of the NBA has a lot of black on it. But if you want a reason to be mad at Stern for these punishments, call him paranoid, not racist. Stern is just being a stern person, and doesn't want to have the NBA thought of as a league of hot-head players. So he's doing everything possible to discourage fights. I personally don't see much wrong with that. Although 10 games for Carmelo and 5 for Nate and Francis might have been better, just because people think he's racist now. But Francis, he's not punishing you so 'harshly' because he's racist. He's doing it because he has the 'league image' in mind. So call him paranoid, and save our country a lot of arguing and finger-pointing.[/quote]Hey, you could be right. Maybe Stern is afraid that one of these days a player will kill a fan or something. It's just that when people call it a black eye, it makes me think that they are saying that the scar it causes to the league is a real issue. I don't think it is. I don't think this is any worse than what happens in other sports. Hell, the other day there was a huge fight in soccer between Barcelona and Ecuador that injured bunches of players. Anyway, sure, if you look at this incident alone, it would be reasonable to say it isn't racism. If you look at this and other rulings, you might think differently.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! People say fighting belongs in Hockey. it's actually not only accepted..but smiled upon most of the time. yet when in Hockey, it gets broken down on CNN, MSNBC and a ton of other channels, thrown together like these guys are a bunch of criminals and what not.Fighting is not only a part of basketball, it is a part of life. It is a part of competitiveness and a part of us all. How many of us that play basketball can say tempers haven't flared and you've ended up pushing shooving and the whole deal. Personally, we can't go very long without it happening. Where you have competitiveness, where you have guys that care, there will be yelling, arguing and fighting. It's just the way it is. You can have 15 game suspensions, full season suspensions..whatever. But it's not going to stop it.To only stop and make a huge deal out of it in Basketball, is wrong. David Stern gives the excuse of because they aren't covered in helmets and are more identifiable, but that's mostly garbage. The real reason is because most basketball players are black. It gets shown as 2 gangster criminals throwin down. While this brawl was cool to see a few times, people need to let it go. It's over and done with and it shouldn't be this big of a deal. These things happen in basketball..in all of sports. Dugouts empty in baseball, gloves drop in hockey, and people fight in basketball. People need to accept it as such.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! Combs 4 President.Your right on.Most of the people on CNN like your talking about don't know what competitiveness really is. They don't understand basketball as a game. They understand it as a product of a business.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! I'm sure if David Stern ran the MLB, there would be a tighter punishment for fighting it. It has nothing to do with racism, it has to do with who's running the league.I could understand JO thinking the dress code thing was a little racist, but fighting? no way. white people fight, too, ya know.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! I'm not really saying it has much to do with Stern. Stern has to almost act accordingly because when this kind of stuff happens, it's all over ESPN, Major media networks, local news and everything in between. So he really has no choice but to act, and act toughly. While in baseball, a dugout empties..punches are thrown and it gets covered that night in sports, possibly the next midday..and it's over. People forget about it. Half the fights in hockey aren't even shown they are so common. What the hell does that say?So really, it's not really Stern being racist in this situation, it's the way the world reacts to it. They react to it <u>differently</u>. I think Nascar is a great example to bring up, along with Hockey.And I say this as a white male. As somebody who gets ticked off when even the dumbest things are declared racist. This situation however, I think is fairly clear.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! it also has to do with the proximity of the players to the fans.In Hockey fighting is a long time tradition and part of the sport, so it's accepted.It's also on the other side of the 7 foot fiberglass wall.Football is played below the fans and is usually 30-40 yards away from the fans so if a fight breaks out it's far enough away.Ditto baseball.Basketball, players routinely go flying in the stands after a looseball, which is applauded for hustle.If the players start a fight near the fans and a fan gets elbowed or kicked or fell on by accident, it would be a catastrophe for the League.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! Plus in the NHL, its a hell of alot more dangerous to try to stop a fight.... the players are carrying around 3 feet of composite stick that can be turned into a spear in about 3 seconds.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ Dec 21 2006, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I could understand JO thinking the dress code thing was a little racist, but fighting? no way. white people fight, too, ya know.</div>Actually, if anything I would say the opposite. I don't remember there being a white person involved in this fight or the brawl at the Palace. The only non-black person I can think of is Najera, and he was holding people back. On the other hand, the dress code applies to everyone. Nash and Peja have to wear the same things as Iverson and Wade do.Also, the NBA is predominately black. A large majority of the NHL is white and I imagine most of the people in the MLB are non-black. I'm not sure what the numbers are for the NFL, but I can tell you it's considered somewhat more of a "white man's sport" than basketball is. And I hope this doesn't come off as crude, when you think of the NBA you almost have to think of someone black. Nearly every player in an basketball-related product is black. This is why I always have to question... when someone says the NBA's "image" has been damaged or that the league's "bad image" has been perpetuated, what image are they talking about? The point is that there is a much different light taken on the league because there are black players in the league, and many times in the brawl.I question it because it is clear that the NBA is actually no worse than any other league, yet they always bring up this image. Melo is such a thug that he had to slap another guy. Even people on this forum have said it.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L_C @ Dec 21 2006, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Plus in the NHL, its a hell of alot more dangerous to try to stop a fight.... the players are carrying around 3 feet of composite stick that can be turned into a spear in about 3 seconds.</div>Usually they don't fight with those, though. At least not what I have seen. When they do get stopped, they get thrown in the penalty box and that is the end of it.And yeah, the same thing could be said of baseball players. I'd be more afraid of a baseball bat than a hockey stick. Gary Sheffield got into a little tiff during one game and made a quick reaction. As I recall, he didn't get suspended, because people in the MLB have sense.I'm not saying that Stern is FOR SURE a racist or anything like that, but he does have some strange view on the league's so-called image.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Justice @ Dec 21 2006, 01:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My point is not that just Carmelo received a ridiculous suspension or anything like that. I think the punishment was a bit excessive across the board and <u>presented as excessive by Stern to teach them a lesson. What lesson? Stop acting black?</u> Once again, why is an excessive suspension needed in this league and not in others?Hey, you could be right. Maybe Stern is afraid that one of these days a player will kill a fan or something. It's just that when people call it a black eye, it makes me think that they are saying that the scar it causes to the league is a real issue. I don't think it is. I don't think this is any worse than what happens in other sports. Hell, the other day there was a huge fight in soccer between Barcelona and Ecuador that injured bunches of players. Anyway, sure, if you look at this incident alone, it would be reasonable to say it isn't racism. If you look at this and other rulings, you might think differently.</div>okay... so you have been telling me this whole time that this is about racism? That means: If a two black players get suspended in one incident far longer than two white players in a seperate yet extremely similar incident, then there would be racism towards the black players. See that underlined part? The lesson is to teach them to stop fighting. Are you saying yourself that if you think Stern's telling them to stop being black, that blacks fight more, or what? Explain that sentence.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LiveAtTheHardwood @ Dec 22 2006, 12:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>okay... so you have been telling me this whole time that this is about racism? That means: If a two black players get suspended in one incident far longer than two white players in a seperate yet extremely similar incident, then there would be racism towards the black players. See that underlined part? The lesson is to teach them to stop fighting. Are you saying yourself that if you think Stern's telling them to stop being black, that blacks fight more, or what? Explain that sentence.</div>Well, I will admit that it is difficult to prove a racial instance based on the simple fact that there really hasn't been any incidents involving a white player or white coach in the NBA for that matter. That means we have to compare it to similar instances in other leagues (unless I'm forgetting some incident involving a white person). I have pretty much already pointed out what I think Stern is trying to say. Is Stern saying that black people fight more? Obviously not straight up, but what are the differences between another league and this league? Yes, the lesson is to teach them to stop being violent between each other. But it ridiculous to think that the league needs to set long suspensions to prove a point about the league's image. It's just silly.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! This is the stupidest sh*t ever, they just try and make race a factor in everything.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JustBlaze @ Dec 23 2006, 09:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is the stupidest sh*t ever, they just try and make race a factor in everything.</div>I couldn't agree more. The players F*cked up they should take thier punishment. I dont care about what happens in other sports! I dont want to see fights every other week like in baseball. I think its riduculous to think that racism is involved. IT IS BAD FOR THE IMAGE of the game. Who cares if they are black or white I dont think it has anything to do with it!
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! Race was absolutely irrelevant to the incident, minorities just love to play the I'm oppressed race card whenever possible, drives me insane.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JustBlaze @ Dec 22 2006, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>This is the stupidest sh*t ever, they just try and make race a factor in everything.</div>Thanks for your deep insight into the matter.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clangus @ Dec 22 2006, 07:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I couldn't agree more. The players F*cked up they should take thier punishment. I dont care about what happens in other sports! I dont want to see fights every other week like in baseball. I think its riduculous to think that racism is involved. IT IS BAD FOR THE IMAGE of the game. Who cares if they are black or white I dont think it has anything to do with it!</div>The point is not that they don't want to take their punishment... Francis wasn't even suspended and was the one who said it. The point is that it happens probably less already than in other sports, yet is treated like it happens all the time and must be stopped immediately or the league will be destroyed.Baseball fights don't happen nearly every week. Maybe one or two a month, and in a 162 game season, that's not a lot.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! There's no deep insight necessary, it's a simple matter.
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! If the brawl in Detroit hadn't have happened I don't think this incident would have been as big a deal. Before Detroit what was the last big fight? Anyone?After Detroit the league cracked down because in that situation it could have escalated to riotous levels and caused major property damage and loss of life. The fact that the fight was over and Melo reignited a tense situation is the major reason why he got such a strict punishment. That fight COULD have spilled into the crowds and potentially hurt NBA fans, which WOULD have caused a major black eye to the sport.In baseball, football, or hockey, do you ever have to worry about a fight between players spilling into the stands? Nope.And if it was a racial thing, why didn't Isaiah Thomas get ANY punishment at all?If it had been a bunch of white guys who got in a fight, and the same punishments had been handed down, would anyone be complaining? Our society seems to be very racially sensitive, where anything that has predominately one people group involved HAS to be about race. If two white guys get in a fight, it's a fight. If a white guy and a black guy get in a fight, it's a fight. If two black guys get in a fight, it's a fight.Sometimes, race doesn't play a role at all. Not a statment that modern society seems to favor...
Re: Is the reaction to the brawl... racist?! The race card is so overused that IMO people are starting to disregard it. I agree that race will play a factor sometimes, but not every single time it's used, because it's used so often that like oh my god a new rule its trying to opress the black players. Stop f*cking using the race card.
