<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'></p> <p class="News">The Bulls open training camp today with a group of players who could stick around for a few years.</p> <p class="News">For one thing, the upgrade options appear limited. After years of speculation, Kevin Garnett finally moved from Minnesota to Boston, and Pau Gasol's ship figures to stay docked in Memphis.</p> <p class="News">There may also be no need for the Bulls to make changes. Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Luol Deng, Tyrus Thomas and Joakim Noah, all between the ages of 21 and 26, should be ready to challenge for the Eastern Conference title this year.</p> <p class="News">So get used to these Bulls. They'll still be here when the Edens Expressway construction project is finished.</p> <p class="News">Unless, that is, a certain image-conscious West Coast superstar continues to complain about his lot with the Los Angeles Lakers.</p> <p class="News">All summer long, the chances of Kobe Bryant being traded to the Bulls sat somewhere between far-fetched and improbable.</p> <p class="News">There is no evidence right now the Lakers are willing to give up their scoring machine or that any direct talks between the Lakers and Bulls have taken place. Then again, Bryant's off-season issues were never resolved and he's expressed a preference to play in Chicago if he did leave the Lakers.</p> <p class="News">Bryant swore back in May he wanted out if the Lakers didn't make changes for the better. On the eve of camp, the Lakers' moves-to-improve checklist includes bringing back veteran Derek Fisher and replacing erratic point guard Smush Parker with rookie Javaris Crittenton. Oh, and they signed Denver coach George Karl's son Coby.</p> <p class="News">So instead of the weekly Garnett trade rumor, will Bulls fans be subjected to constant Kobe chatter this season? Maybe not, because a contract extension for Gordon could effectively put the brakes on such a thought -- at least until next summer.</p> <p class="News">Gordon and Deng are both eligible to sign contract extensions up until the Oct. 31 deadline. If it doesn't happen, they'll become restricted free agents in 2008.</p> <p class="News">The Bulls have been in no hurry to talk numbers this summer. But that's no cause for alarm, since Hinrich agreed to a new deal last year on the final day. The feeling here is general manager John Paxson will be reluctant to go any higher than $55 million over five years for Gordon or Deng, which is what shooting guard Kevin Martin reportedly got from the Kings a few weeks ago.</p> <p class="News">If Bryant trade talks ever become legitimate, here are a few things the Bulls aren't likely to do: Include Deng with Gordon in any trade, pay a hefty amount of luxury tax or even give up Thomas or Noah, since they'd have no means to replace the young big men.</p> <p class="News">There are combinations that meet the criteria and work under salary-cap rules if Bryant waived his trade kicker. The Bulls would need to add another large contract (like Andres Nocioni's) to avoid the luxury tax, since Ben Wallace is unlikely to leave.</p> <p class="News">Gordon, Nocioni, Thabo Sefolosha, Joe Smith, plus first-round picks galore, for example, could be done after Dec. 15. Not great for the Lakers, sure, but an argument could be made that it's better than what Minnesota received for Garnett.</div></p> <p class="News">Source: Chicago Daily Herald</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jumpman)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I would not do that trade at the bottom. Gordon, Thomas, Noah, Thabo is more like it.</p> </div></p> The article said they are not likely to include Thomas or Noah. I think the trade mentioned at the bottom is more likely to occur than your suggestion.</p> </p> </p>
I wouldn't do that trade. Gordon + Nocioni > Kobe. I think the gap between Gordon/Kobe as far as impact on the game will be closed very shortly (this season perhaps). Gordon has been perfectly healthy, while Kobe has some knee problems that could linger up. Not to mention Gordon is more likeable than Kobe, and no player has more important moments for the Bulls post MJ, so your losing major sentimental value.</p> I'd do Luol Deng + Filler for Kobe (basically a future star for current star type trade).</p> or</p> Kirk Hinrich, Andres Nocioni, and filler for Kobe.</p> Paxson just has to wait it out. Either Kobe will be happy with his current team, as Bynum develops well, and no trade will occur, or Lakers will suck, Kobe will get further pissed off, leading to the trade being carved down to Hinrich and Nocioni as the centerpiece.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I wouldn't do that trade. Gordon + Nocioni > Kobe. I think the gap between Gordon/Kobe as far as impact on the game will be closed very shortly (this season perhaps). Gordon has been perfectly healthy, while Kobe has some knee problems that could linger up. Not to mention Gordon is more likeable than Kobe, and no player has more important moments for the Bulls post MJ, so your losing major sentimental value.</p> I'd do Luol Deng + Filler for Kobe (basically a future star for current star type trade).</p> </div></p> </p> There is a huge gap between Gordon and Kobe. No one knows if Gordon will ever have All-Star caliber PER either. Nocioni is barely above the league average in PER as well.</p> To me it seems like you're letting your personal feelings about Kobe cloud your judgement.</p>
I'd rather lose in the ECF with Gordon than win an NBA Finals with Kobe. Basketball is purely entertainment. While winning is the ultimate goal, as a person seeking entertainment, watching Gordon go out there and fight will be much more entertaining than me than watching a player I really dislike go put on the Red and Black.</p>
The trade at the bottom is sh*t i don't like it at all I'll prefer Deng rather than Gordon.I think that we could get better players for Kobe because that trade is just a joke of Kobe's game.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I'd rather lose in the ECF with Gordon than win an NBA Finals with Kobe. Basketball is purely entertainment. While winning is the ultimate goal, as a person seeking entertainment, watching Gordon go out there and fight will be much more entertaining than me than watching a player I really dislike go put on the Red and Black.</p> </div></p> Kobe is much more entertaining to watch than Gordon. Even on that level I'd pick Kobe easily, so I don't see your point.</p> </p> Whether you like him or not, you were overzealous when discussing "gaps" and such.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (huevonkiller)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I'd rather lose in the ECF with Gordon than win an NBA Finals with Kobe. Basketball is purely entertainment. While winning is the ultimate goal, as a person seeking entertainment, watching Gordon go out there and fight will be much more entertaining than me than watching a player I really dislike go put on the Red and Black.</p> </div></p> Kobe is much more entertaining to watch than Gordon. Even on that level I'd pick Kobe easily, so I don't see your point.</p> </p> Whether you like him or not, you were overzealous when discussing "gaps" and such.</p> </div></p> Ben Gordon led his team to a 49 win record, Kobe only 42 for his Lakers. Gordon is younger, with absolutely no injury history, and seems to be a harder worker than any player in the league, so he will continue to trend upward.</p> Ben Gordon has also been more clutch than Kobe. Thats the difference imo, of the Bulls/Lakers record. Kobe does his damage more consistently throughout the game. The Bulls have a spread out attack (Kirk/Deng/Nocioni) throughout the majority of the game, but come 4th quarter, its BG time. You lose that when you trade him for Kobe.</p> </p>
In the future, try to avoid coming to the Laker forum, and start dissing Kobe like this. That's the respectful thing to do.</p> [quote name='BG7 Lavigne']</p> [quote name='huevonkiller']</p> [quote name='BG7 Lavigne']</p> I'd rather lose in the ECF with Gordon than win an NBA Finals with Kobe. Basketball is purely entertainment. While winning is the ultimate goal, as a person seeking entertainment, watching Gordon go out there and fight will be much more entertaining than me than watching a player I really dislike go put on the Red and Black.</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Kobe is much more entertaining to watch than Gordon. Even on that level I'd pick Kobe easily, so I don't see your point.</p> </p> Whether you like him or not, you were overzealous when discussing "gaps" and such.</p> [/QUOTE]</p> Ben Gordon led his team to a 49 win record, Kobe only 42 for his Lakers. [/Quote]</p> Kobe is empirically much better than Gordon, and quite efficient. Gordon has better players around him, isn't the passer Kobe is (lmao, take that), and plays in the Eastern Conference. You can say Kobe is a douchebag all you want, but please don't waste my time with this nonsense about Gordon being better or in his league.</p> </p> And easily not as talented.</p> </p> That's kind of a fair point. You're still overzealous.</p> </p> How is he a harder worker than Kobe?</p> </p> And how did you figure this out?</p> </p> Come 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th quarter, it's Kobe time. </p> </p> You lose what again?</p> </p> </p>
I don't think that the Lakers are going to trade Kobe I know i wouldn't he's too valuable to trade. Nothing is more valueable than Kobe. No trade has equal value of Kobe's game.</p>
<u>About this Gordon and Kobe debate: </u> The wins that Chicago has are due to two things: 1. Playing in the Eastern Conference 2. A better supporting cast and team playing with BG</p> Regarding skill level: Kobe > BG. There is no argument here, don't even try to argue this point. Kobe is the more prolific scorer and he does it in so many dynamics. BG is straight up just a shooter, IMO. Granted I'm not saying that BG sucks, by all means he is a great player, but to say he is anywhere near Kobe's level..thats a negative.</p> Regarding clutchness: See Youtube. NBA History. That'll be enough for you to show that Kobe is more clutch.</p> There was one statement about Kobe being consistent throughtout the game and that the 4th quarter scoring would be lost by the Bulls if they got Kobe that really pissed me off...I'm sorry, but you mentioning Kobe's consistency throughout a game shows that he is the better scorer AND that consistency throughout a whole game also shows that he can play that 4th Quarter. Kobe simply wills the Lakers to victory sometimes. It is pure ignorance to say that you lose that 4th quarter scoring boost when you trade BG away and get KOBE BRYANT in return. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make this personal (Just that statement made me mad), but honestly, Kobe is simply the better player.</p> </p>
LOL at the Gordon Kobe match ups. That is just rediculous. How did Ben Gordon LEAD his team when he isn't even the leader? He's not even the Bulls best player. The captains on the team are Deng, Wallace and Kirk. I would even put Andres in front of Gordon. He is practically a 6th man. No injury history? How long has he been in the league for? I am pretty sure not as long as Kobe. And i'm just going to pretend that i didn't read the part where you said Gordon was more CLUTCH than Kobe.</p> Deng+Filler for Kobe? You are talking about an MVP type of player, best player in the league, best scorer in the league, one of the most clutch in the league, a defensive stopper when he doesn't have to carry the load (watch team USA basketball). I don't even think a dumb GM like Mitch would do that trade.The only reason the Lakers didn't have more wins than "Ben Gordon's" team is look at the player surrounding him. Kwame was getting injured, Luke was getting injured, Mihm was out for the season, Odom was out for some games, and we still has Smush Parker. All that in the WESTERN conference, not the weak eastern conference from last year that the Bulls were in.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> I'd rather lose in the ECF with Gordon than win an NBA Finals with Kobe. Basketball is purely entertainment. While winning is the ultimate goal, as a person seeking entertainment, watching Gordon go out there and fight will be much more entertaining than me than watching a player I really dislike go put on the Red and Black.</p> </div></p> um... pls dont speak... u dont know what your saying... basketball is purely entertainment? WTF??? put your personal issues aside avril</p> </p>
It's not even worth debating about. Kobe Bryant is superior on every level in comparison to Ben Gordon. Not wanting Kobe on your team is one thing, but let's not make silly comments to cloud your bias against him. The Lakers only won 42 games, but take a look at all the injuries they dealt with last season, not to mention the Lakers play in a tougher conference.</p> Here's the difference, you swap Kobe with Ben last season and the Bulls are in the Finals, while the Lakers are back in the lottery.</p>
The Lakers would have one of the worst record in the league with Ben Gordon instead of Kobe last year. Ben Gordon would've had no chance of holding the Lakers together once Odom and Walton get injured. The best thing Ben Gordon can do is shoot. And my Kobe can do that better than him. I don't think Gordon can even create his own shot, he has an advantage of having Hinrich on his team over Smush. Your way too biased, pretty much saying you wouldn't trade a 6th man at best with no defense for the best player in the league (also an offensive monster, defensive 1st team, proven veteran). I'm sorry but that just made me mad reading it.
No doubt that Kobe is the better player than Ben Gordon, but one thing Ben trounces Kobe in is in clutch play. Ben Gordon is one of the best 4th quarter players in NBA History. (His clutch eFG% from his rookie year combined with his scoring have only been matched by one other player, a former Bull).</p> As far as game winners.</p> Leading "Game Winning Shot" Players</p> <table width="465" cellspacing="1" border="0" bgcolor="#ffffff"> <tbody> <tr bgcolor="#33cc33"> <td width="150"><center><font size="-1">Player</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">Fgm</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">Fga</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">Fg%</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">Ftm</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">Fta</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">Ast</font></center></td> <td width="45"><center><font size="-1">T/O</font></center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffcc66"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">League Wide</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">438</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1500</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.292</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">303</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">420</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">191</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">139</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Carmelo Anthony</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">11</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">17</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.647</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">6</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Ray Allen</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">18</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.444</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Michael Redd</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">19</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.421</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">6</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">7</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Steve Francis</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">20</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.400</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">3</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">3</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Allen Iverson</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">20</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.400</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">5</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">7</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Joe Johnson</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">23</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.348</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Tracy McGrady</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">23</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.348</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Vince Carter</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">31</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.258</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">5</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">6</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">3</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Ben Gordon</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">7</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">13</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.538</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Dirk Nowitzki</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">7</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">19</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.368</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">6</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">10</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">2</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#f0f0df"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Paul Pierce</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">7</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">20</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.350</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">10</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">5</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">3</font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#ffffff"> <td align="left"><font size="-1">Kobe Bryant</font></td> <td bgcolor="#99ff99" align="right"><font size="-1">7</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">32</font></td> <td><font size="-1"><center>.219</center></font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">8</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">9</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">0</font></td> <td align="right"><font size="-1">1</font></td> </tr> </tbody> </table> </p> Thats a year old I believe. But Gordon, 7-13....he had as many game winners since (2003) as Kobe did, despite playing one less year,a nd Gordon made the same amount of gamewinners in 19 less attempts.</p> The idea isn't balancing Ben Gordon's and Kobe's on the court value. First off, you guys are way off on BG's on court value. When you start just putting players as more valuable on the Bulls than BG, and just start listing player after player, you lose all credibility. Ben Gordon is either #1, or #2, behind Luol Deng, and its hard to make a case for Deng being the leader, when he was clearly Gordon's wing man (and defined himself in that role) last year. That might change this year, but just based on what has happened so far, thats not the case. Gordon is definitely more valuable to the Bulls than Hinrich or Nocioni.</p> But thats on court value. What I am doing, which you guys are not, is comparing the TRADE VALUES. You guys obviously want back good talent for Kobe. No fans want their team to get crap back. But look at what the situation will be if Kobe is asking out. The Lakers will be a poor team, and he will be demanding a trade out. He has a no trade clause, so he can veto a trade to make it more in favor of the team that he's going to. Its not going to be a rosy trade.</p> Ben Gordon will likely score 24+ PPG, be an allstar, and at least All NBA 3rd Team caliber next year. Luol Deng as well will be getting that type of recognition. In these superstar trades, you don't get back the other players best player, or second best player.</p> Garnett trade, they didn't get Allen or Pierce. Shaq trade, they didn't get D-Wade. Iverson, they didn't get Melo or Camby. Vince Carter...umm....yeah, no Kidd, Jefferson, Krstic, etc. Thats just the reality of things. You will probably not be getting a top 2 player on the Bulls (who will likely be a 52+ win team this year, and top of the East), and will likely get a second tier player (Nocioni/Hinrich), and then some other assets (Sefolosha, etc.). You will not be getting a top tier asset (Gordon/Deng) in all likely hood, and if you do, you definitely will not be getting assorted goodies in addition to them (Nocioni, Hinrich, Thomas, Noah) if that is what the basis of the trade is.</p>
Look at the amount of attempts Kobe had in contrast to Ben though. Kobe was put in this pressure situation 32 times versus ONLY 13 from Gordon. I'd expect Ben's field goal to drop the more times he's put in a clutch situation to make a shot. The league wide average is only 29%. Also take into account the single or zero coverage Ben was facing when he took those shots in comparison to Kobe having to fight off two or three defenders to get a shot off. I'd be willing to bet Ben Gordon was setup on a large marjority of those 13 attempts. Kobe was forced to create against a lot more defensive pressure on his attempts.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shapecity)</div><div class='quotemain'></p> Look at the amount of attempts Kobe had in contrast to Ben though. Kobe was put in this pressure situation 32 times versus ONLY 13 from Gordon. I'd expect Ben's field goal to drop the more times he's put in a clutch situation to make a shot. The league wide average is only 29%. Also take into account the single or zero coverage Ben was facing when he took those shots in comparison to Kobe having to fight off two or three defenders to get a shot off. I'd be willing to bet Ben Gordon was setup on a large marjority of those 13 attempts. Kobe was forced to create against a lot more defensive pressure on his attempts.</p> </div></p> Ben doesn't get set up on his end of game attempts. They're pure isolation.</p> </p> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wg_aeCfsJoc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Wg_aeCfsJoc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/bJVghh9rm5k"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/bJVghh9rm5k" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e5F_BDc-w4Y"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e5F_BDc-w4Y" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/QF-AI_aEhd0"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/QF-AI_aEhd0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> Watching Ben in the clutch is one of the greatest joys of being a Bulls fan. He is one of the finest in the league at that regard, and the Bulls have had countless 4th quarter comebacks with Ben being the catalyst. His clutch play is definitely undervalued by most fans.</p> </p>
Exactly what Shape said, Kobe has to make his own clutch shots over several defenders while Gordon gets his shot attemps set up by Kirk or Duhon.</p> Allstar, NBA 3rd Team, wow are you serious? You need to calm down on the bias. 24PPG might be possible since all he does is shoot, but allstar, not even close. In the east there is Wade, Redd, Allen, Johnson, Hamilton, Arenas, Iggy, Carter. I would even put Crawford or MArbury ahead of Gordon. 3rd team is striaght up ridiculous, Gordon is not even the best guard on his team, Kirk Hinrich is. And Kirk is a long shot to make 3rd NBA team. Gordon is not #1 OR #2 maybe not even #3 behind Nocioni on the Bulls.</p> </p> </p> </p>
