Randy Foye, JJ Redick and Shelden Williams over the last week. I am really high on Foye (he's an outstanding fit in Seattle), not so high on Redick and unsure on Shelden, but he would give us an insurance plan with Wilcox and some interior D. Only early of course, anything could happen, and I expect we'll probably work out Foye again. Coby Karl is scheduled for a Seattle workout too, now there is a blast from the past.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The Sonics concluded two days of workouts on Thursday and completed the first phase of their in-house evaluations before front-office personnel, scouts and coaching staff depart for next week's NBA predraft camp in Orlando, Fla. If first impressions mean anything, the Sonics are smitten by Villanova guard Randy Foye and Duke standouts Shelden Williams and J.J. Redick, the notable prospects invited for workouts at the Furtado Center. Williams, a 6-foot-9 All-America forward, auditioned Thursday with Bradley center Patrick O'Bryant, Florida State forward Alexander Johnson and Louisiana Tech forward Paul Milsap. A day earlier, coach Bob Hill supervised a practice involving Foye and Redick as well as 7-foot centers Mouhamed Saer Sene of Senegal and Sidiki Sidibe of France. The Sonics have chosen 7-footers in Robert Swift and Johan Petro in the past two drafts, which makes it unlikely they'll take Sene and Sidibe in the June 28 draft. According to a team source, the focus of Wednesday's exhibition was establishing whether Foye or Redick is a better fit should the Sonics take a shooting guard with the 10th pick.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Workouts are closed to the media, but those in attendance said both 6-4 guards played to their strengths. Redick is the all-time ACC scoring leader, while Foye is regarded as one of nation's top perimeter defenders. "My workout with the Sonics went well," Redick said via e-mail. "I was pleased with the way I shot the ball, and it is always exciting to compete against a player the caliber of Randy Foye. "I really enjoyed working with coach Hill and his staff and having the chance to sit down and talk with Rick Sund and Wally Walker. It was my first time visiting Seattle, and from what I saw, it is a beautiful city. I know the people of Washington are passionate about their sports teams — it would be great to play in a city with such tremendous fan support."</div> http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soni...157_soni02.html
Seems a little different for us to be targeting guards in the lottery since we don't traditionally use our first round pick on a guard. Luke Ridnour was an exception b/c that year we had two picks in the late lottery. Again, I've gone on record as saying that the ideal pick for us would be Randy Foye b/c of the versatility he has in the backcourt. Considering that I don't look at Ridnour as our long term solution at point guard it gives us some flexibility in the event that we don't resign Luke for the '07-'08 season. It is amazing how much stock teams put in these individual workouts when at no point are players ever going to earn a living playing one on one, two on two, or doing shooting/ball handling drills (and post moves w/ no defender). Doesn't make sense to assess talent that way but these general managers/coaches all feel as if they know everything when it comes to judging talent. This pick is going to be interesting b/c something tells me that we will throw whomever we draft in the fire and there won't be a large curve in terms of his development. I'm just hoping that we don't select Ronnie Brewer b/c I think that he has bust written all over him. Ultra athletic non skilled wing players rarely make an impact in the NBA.
I'd hardly call Randy Foye a perfect fit at his height. I wouldn't mind him coming off the bench if the Supes traded Luke and started Earl, but right now the team needs a player who can guard the Tracy McGradys and Kobe Bryants of the NBA. Damien is a solid defender, but he's a small forward, plain and simple.
Carney certainly has the physical tools to be that lockdown swingman defender, but does he have the desire to be?
I don't doubt Carney's effort, but he doesn't have much potential for such an incredible athlete. Even so, he wouldn't be a bad pick because of his defense and ability to run the floor. But he's a small forward, so Damien would have to be primarily a backup guard. And we know I don't like that idea. Ronnie Brewer seems to be a hate magnet lately and Mardy Collins is dropping down mock drafts like an old women's breasts. If there's any truth to the complaints against them, it looks like the Supes will be choosing between Redick and Foye if they want a guard. Of course, I still think Wilcox will be bolting for greener pastures, so power forward will become a need once again. Shelden Williams would be great for the defense, but as Wilcox has shown an athletic forward is what the team really needs. Cedric Simmons, anybody?
I think Collins would be an outstanding fit, as he can play both guard spots and is a terrific and disciplined defender. I don't really buy the knock that he's "only going to be a roleplayer at the next level", because at the end of the day, we have two all-stars and a young and surprisingly full roster positon-wise, if Wilcox does return. If you get a 10 year, dependable pro with pick 10, is that such a bad thing? How much 'star quality' is going to be there at 10 anyway in this draft?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">I'd hardly call Randy Foye a perfect fit at his height. I wouldn't mind him coming off the bench if the Supes traded Luke and started Earl, but right now the team needs a player who can guard the Tracy McGradys and Kobe Bryants of the NBA.</div> Well then we should make a deal to bring in Quinton Ross b/c there is no defender in this draft nor in the NBA for that matter who can lock up Kobe Bryant or Tracy McGrady. Why would we be looking for a small forward at pick 10 when most likely the only three players at that position that are worthy of lottery selection as a small forward is Morrison, Gay, and Roy (who I see as a two anyway)? Carney looks more like Darren Hancock than he does Vince Carter and Ronnie Brewer looks more like Jerryl Sasser than he does Clyde Drexler. Defense starts on the ball and it doesn't take a genious to figure out that we have a hard time keeping the ball handlers in front of us. One of the main culprits of this is Ridnour, so why wouldn't we look to get an upgrade defensively in both backcourt spots? I'm not saying that Foye is going to be a ROY candidate but what I am saying is that he can make an impact on both ends of the court and he is versatile enough to do it at two positions--and one of those positions is a need for us and that is back up shooting guard. I just don't see Mardy Collins, Carney, Brewer, Redick, or any other big wing that could be available at pick #10 having more of an impact than Randy Foye. Redick has too many defensive deficiencies and we already do a tremendous job spreading the court with Ray, Earl, and Sweet Lew. Why wouldn't you think that we won't sign Wilcox? He wants to stay and we want him back. I'm sure that Rick Sund has gotten the word out that we will match any offer for him and that has probably soured people off on tendering him an offer sheet. It wouldn't make sense us not to resign him. There isn't a FA power forward who is willing to come to Seattle that can make more of an impact than Weezy did in his two months in the Emerald City. I don't think that the best available post man, who in my estimation would either be Shelden Williams or Cedric Simmons, would be viable replacements for him either. Plus Nick Collison can be a FA in '07 and we couldn't risk losing two cornerstone pieces to our front line with absolutely no compensation for that. So I anticipate little movement in the offseason for us other than trying to move Fortson and possibly Ridnour/Sweet Lew and I do expect Wilcox to be in the fold for a short term deal that would resemble a 3 year 22 million type of contract range--unless he'd sign an offer sheet that we'd be inclined to match. That forces our hand to get a guard in the draft and I'm hoping that guard would be Randy Foye.
I like Foye and all, but claiming he's significantly better than any other mid first round pick is just conjecture. I believe he needs the green light to score at will to have maximum impact and there's just no room in the lineup for that right now. And I agree that there's no reason for the Supes not to resign Wilcox. On the other hand, there's no reason for Wilcox to resign with us for more than one year because there are plenty of winning teams that would be happy to have him (although not many have the money).
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Seattle could be another option to move up to 5 as they reportedly love local kid Brandon Roy, and they know they will have to trade up to get him. The Hawks would love to pry Luke Ridnour away from Seattle, but it's unlikely they would include him in this type of deal.</div> Source: nbadraft.net I wouldn't mind doing that deal at all (Luke needs a major change of scenery), but I'm not so excited about the prospect of Brandon playing point guard as other people seem to be. We could sign a guy that doesn't mind playing only 15 minutes a game or so (Mike Wilks, anyone?) and Brandon/Ray could conceivably bring the ball up for a couple minutes every game.
There is no doubt in my mind that Roy is going to have a very productive pro career but I just don't see him fitting in well with this team when his minutes will be limited b/c of the presence of Ray and Sweet Lew. If we are able to trade Sweet Lew and bring in a serviceable wing along with a good point guard than I'd be all for the move. Trade proposal: Atlanta receives: Luke Ridnour Pick #10 from Seattle Indiana receives: Rashard Lewis Pick #40 from Seattle The rights to Paccelis Morlende Seattle receives: Jamaal Tinsley Danny Granger Pick #5 from Atlanta Potential Lineups: Seattle Jamaal Tinsley/Earl Watson/FA Ray Allen/Brandon Roy/Mickael Gelebale Danny Granger/Damien Wilkins Chris Wilcox/Nick Collison/Clinton Moore Robert Swift/Johan Petro/Danny Fortson We obviously would be losing a lot with Sweet Lew's departure but we'd make up for it w/ consistent point guard production that would enable our bigs to develop even quicker than they have already developed. Also our bench would be one of the best in the league. A player like Brandon Roy would come into his own much quicker if he only had to compete w/ Granger and Wilkins for minutes (not to mention the minutes he'd get while Ray was resting). Sweet Lew isn't worth the money that he is seeking and Ridnour is playing on borrowed time right now. Jamaal Tinsley has health issues but when he is on his game he remains a top 10 point guard in the league--more than capable of getting post players and perimeter players high percentage shots. The other teams address some needs without giving up much either. Sweet Lew can add some scoring to an pretty stagnant Indiana offense and he is insurance in the event that Peja walks or they want to rid themselves of Stephen Jackson. Atlanta gets a point guard and can probably find a player worthy of contributing five picks down. Almost a two for one deal for them--if they don't like Ridnour they could use him as trade bait w/ one of their 12 other wing players. Seems like it can work for all teams involved. Thoughts?
If we could get that deal done then I would be in high heaven - Granger is a beast and is going to be a fine, fine defensive player in this league for years to come. Isn't exactly a mug on the offensive end either, and to be honest I think you account for Rashard's contributions offensively through Wilcox, Roy and Granger, although obviously minus as many three balls. I'm not entirely sure that's enough to entice Indiana to do it though, given they already have Peja and I think he'll stay, but it would give us the most talented and deepest young core in the league. Still, it just seems to me Indy are adding more of the same, when realistically Granger could fill the hole Artest has left. The versatility there is amazing though - you could play just about any line-up, from very small (Tinsley, Watson, Allen, Granger, Wilcox) to very large (Allen, Roy, Granger, Wilcox, Petro/Swift).
Maybe if I switch Morlende with Micka?l Gelabale then it would entice Indiana a bit more. I know that Granger is a cornerstone for what they want to do but to get offered a 20+ a game scorer in Rashard Lewis must be pretty enticing. And in a draft like this there is probably a ton of players at pick #40 that could slip through the cracks and be impact players in this league. A guy like Denham Brown, Guillermo Diaz, Mike Gansey, Craig Smith, Rudy Fernandez, etc. could all be available at that pick. The spot may not fill a hole but it could provide depth to a team that has been depleted with injuries and guys having to either play out of position or in a role that they are not accustomed to playing. Indiana may be looking to overhaul their roster and at this point I don't see anyone that they have as being untouchable--including Jermaine O'Neal. Sweet Lew still has a ton of value and it makes sense to dangle him when he is letting everyone know that it will take a significant pay raise for him to want to remain in Seattle.
There's no way Indiana would do it unless Peja leaves. And I still don't know why you're so high on Tinsley but whatever floats yo boat, my man. The Sonics have good players to trade but no place to trade them. Sad.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">There's no way Indiana would do it unless Peja leaves. And I still don't know why you're so high on Tinsley but whatever floats yo boat, my man. </div> Your negativity never ceases to amaze me. For the sake of arguing answer these questions for me: Is Peja coming back to Indiana a guarantee? Does Bird seem content with standing pat and letting this offseason go w/o any significant movement? Is our point guard position so solid that we shouldn't entertain offers to upgrade? Will we sign Rashard Lewis to an extension that both parties feel comfortable with either this offseason or the following offseason? Should we stand pat and not entertain any offers that include a potential free agent that we can't afford to keep? I am interested to see how many of those questions that you would answer Yes to. Last year's team won 35 games last season, so for the sake of this forum it would make sense for us to throw around ideas to improve the team. Tinsley is a player who has proven to be one of the best ball handling and distributing point guards in this league. His only real weaknesses are his penchance for turnovers and his tolerance for pain. Considering that he has been stuck in a very stagnant offense the past three seasons I am very intrigued to imagine how many assists he could accumulate in an up and down system such as ours. A fresh start has helped many underachieving players in the past: including your personal diamond in the rough Boris Diaw. Cas, when you start going at people for making a suggestion/proposal make sure that you come up w/ some counterpoints to make your arguments stand on its feet.
I'm all for this proposed trade. I agree that Tinsley is a better point than Luke... and that Sweet Lew might need to get shipped out. Adding Granger and possibly Roy would strengthen us defensively...so we won't necessarily need the 3s that Lew would hit, although it wouldn't make a difference in our offense with our style of play. What bugs me is that the team doesn't seem to want to let go of Ridnour or Lew. I might be wrong though...which I hope I am. Bringing in those younger guys would help us now and in the future as well. Having two solid centers and having the power forward situation figured out for now, it will for sure be great for the team and will also help out with the financial woes. Oh and needless to say, if we do somehow get Roy...seats will sell by themselves. Edit: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Seattle Jamaal Tinsley/Earl Watson/FA Ray Allen/Brandon Roy/Mickael Gelebale Danny Granger/Damien Wilkins Chris Wilcox/Nick Collison/Clinton Moore Robert Swift/Johan Petro/Danny Fortson </div> I like that lineup. Why not have Wilks as the FA behind Watson?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">Your negativity never ceases to amaze me. Is Peja coming back to Indiana a guarantee? Does Bird seem content with standing pat and letting this offseason go w/o any significant movement? Is our point guard position so solid that we shouldn't entertain offers to upgrade? Will we sign Rashard Lewis to an extension that both parties feel comfortable with either this offseason or the following offseason? Should we stand pat and not entertain any offers that include a potential free agent that we can't afford to keep? Cas, when you start going at people for making a suggestion/proposal make sure that you come up w/ some counterpoints to make your arguments stand on its feet.</div> Answer me this: Is Wilcox coming back to Seattle a guarantee? (No, but it's apparently so likely you're leaving him in the lineup anyway. Wait! I was doing the same with Peja! I suck.) Do the Sonics have any history of making deals when their hand isn't forced? (No.) Have the Sonics given any indication they're looking to trade Ridnour or Lewis? (No.) Am I being negative or realistic? Anyway, I was participating in the whole trade scenario thing before this. Just because I disagree with your proposition, I'm against any trade at all? I said "no way Indiana would do it unless Peja leaves" because it's true. Rashard is a tall small forward who takes a lot of threes and plays no defense. Sound familiar? Not to mention Stephen Jackson, who at 6'8" can shoot threes and post up smaller players just fine. So, pardon me if I don't see why the Pacers would want a player they don't particularly need. Danny Granger is also more valuable to the Pacers than Rashard because he defends and rebounds and is extremely young. As for Tinsley, I don't have anything against him but he's basically a bigger version of Ridnour who turns the ball over more and has missed 110 games the last three seasons. I don't think either player is significantly better than the other, and they could both use a change of scenery, but Ridnour has a better chance of playing a full season and is younger. And Tinsley has five years left on his contract. Trading for a notoriously frail player who is owned that much money is nonsense unless your name is Isaiah Thomas. Now, I apologize for not making two page posts with footnotes to get my point across but I'd like to assume that it's not necessary in most cases. And I'm too lazy to do it.
Why am I assuming that Wilcox will return? B/c he is a restricted free agent unlike Peja who can go wherever he wants w/o the consent of the Pacers. Has this current set of management made deals w/o being forced to? Yes, remember Desmond Mason? He was packaged in a deal w/ Payton when he had just signed an extension and was supposed to be a cornerstone for our franchise. Payton's departure wasn't something that was a foregone conclusion either--especially considering that he had said on countless occasions that he wanted to remain a Sonic his entire career. Plus, considering the current state of turmoil for this organization it may force their hands to try to do something that will infuse some energy into the city. Such a move might include trading up for hometown hero Brandon Roy. Jamaal Tinsley recently turned 28. I wouldn't call him a senior citizen. And for the record he has four years remaining on a deal that pays him around the MLE. Combined w/ Granger's rookie salary that is much cheaper than paying Rashard Lewis a contract that will pay him on average 12 million dollars a season. And to say that he and Ridnour have similar games is like saying Michael Redd and JJ Redick have similar games. The only similarity that Tinsley and Ridnour have are that they are pass first point guards. I understand your point that the Pacers would not want to part w/ Granger--and I never suggested I have so much insight as to what Seattle management is planning on doing either. We have bargaining chips that are not maximizing their potential on our roster--and at some point Sund is going to make an aggressive move to shake up this roster (especially considering that we have missed the playoffs 3 of the past 4 seasons under his leadership). He has been in office for five seasons and the only significant mistake that he has made was signing Calvin Booth to a ridiculous contract in his first season. To put his stamp on this franchise he is going to have to make another bold move to reshape this roster and I am under the impression that it is going to include free agent to be Rashard Lewis. Glad you enjoy reading my term paper like responses to your well thought out criticisms of all Sonic related ideas. I hope that your profs at UW (if you still attend) think as highly as we do for your concise and patronizing way of conveying your thoughts.
I guess I should've phrased it "Is Wilcox coming back for more than one year a guarantee?" I believe my point still stands. He benefits more from signing a qualifying offer than a long term deal. Unlike Radman he has shown some very steady improvement. The Payton trade was definitely forced in my mind. Everybody and their mother expected it to happen at some point during the season. Desmond was in the trade because Ray was better than Gary at that point. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Plus, considering the current state of turmoil for this organization it may force their hands to try to do something that will infuse some energy into the city. Such a move might include trading up for hometown hero Brandon Roy.</div> Yeah, but I was the first one in this topic to say trading up for Roy was a good idea. You claimed he wasn't the best fit. You got me on the salary thing. I didn't consider Rashard's contract in the trade. However, Tinsley may be 28, but he's got the legs of a 90-year-old grandpa. You seemed to take offense to the way I reacted to your proposed trade. That's no surprise. With the way I speak, I get that reaction all the time. I don't do it intentionally. Well...sometimes I do. It's just too fun to get you all riled up, Shiekypoo.
