Okay, after being sufficiently irritated by all the articles slamming the Warriors for signing Foyle to the big contract when he only averaged 3.1 ppg and 3.8 rpg last year I decided to see how he did in games where he got more than 30 minutes a game. I knew he had some big games, but the numbers he put up are pretty surprising. In the 4 games he got that much blow last year he averaged about 10.8 ppg, 12.8 rpg, and 2.3 bpg. In '03 he had 8 games of 30+ minutes: He averaged 9.8 ppg, 11.5 rpg, and 3.9 bpg In '02 he had 5 games with 30+ minutes: He averaged 10.8 ppg, 9.2 rpg, and 4 bpg. While he's not Damp, and he never will be, I sure feel better about the money the Warriors paid him. Now its admittedly weak to try and predict how Foyle will do next based onwhat he did in 17 games over the last 3 years, but its all we have to go on. It might be unrealistic to predict that Foyle will average 10.4 ppg, 10.6 rpg, and 3.6 bpg (the combined averages of the last 3 years), but I think its certainly possible. I should also note that in most of those games, Foyle was only getting 30-33 mpg, and he only had one game where he got 40+ minutes, but he had 20 points, 16 boards, and 2 blocks. I'd feel a lot better if the Warriors got a back up center just in case Foyle goes down, but if Foyle stays healthy, I think he's going to make a lot of people eat their words.
Thanks for those stats walker, good to know. If you are a true Warriors fan, you know what Foyle can do on the floor when he gets in the minutes. As Walker's stats showed, Foyle does produce when given the minutes. I bet most of the people who thought that this was a horrible signing have never really seen Foyle in action. They look at his stats and base everything on that alone. Having watched almost every single game for the past few years, I believe Foyle WILL make the haters eat their words. Maybe he is a bit overpaid, but we had a hole and Mullin filled it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">Thanks for those stats walker, good to know. If you are a true Warriors fan, you know what Foyle can do on the floor when he gets in the minutes. As Walker's stats showed, Foyle does produce when given the minutes. I bet most of the people who thought that this was a horrible signing have never really seen Foyle in action. They look at his stats and base everything on that alone. Having watched almost every single game for the past few years, I believe Foyle WILL make the haters eat their words. Maybe he is a bit overpaid, but we had a hole and Mullin filled it.</div> One thing I like about foyle is that when he goes up for the block, he blocks the ball to himself and not just swat it to the outside, cause you get the block, plus the steal!!! He said his college coach told him to do that, it preety neat.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting coldsauce33:</div><div class="quote_post">One thing I like about foyle is that when he goes up for the block, he blocks the ball to himself and not just swat it to the outside, cause you get the block, plus the steal!!! He said his college coach told him to do that, it preety neat.</div> Yea, I'm still trying to learn how to do that. I love how Ben Wallace just takes the ball out of the air, doesn't even block it. Does that count as a steal or a block? My coach always tells me to block the ball in bounds so we get it but I see the ball in the air and I try to swat it as hard as I can.
Another stat split I like to use is Foyle's last 10 games as a Warrior. Damp was injured, so Foyle was starting. In that time, he averaged 9 points, 10 boards, and 3 blocks over 26 minutes. It's only 10 games, but it was a true starting role.
if foyle is able to show some durability next year and throughout the length of his contract it will be a good signing. it's always a surprise when people in the media make comments about a player's stats and yet never seem to factor in the number of minutes they played or the role in which they were used. foyle's only had one year in which he averaged more than 21 minutes per game...and surprise, surprise, he had his best statistical season in both points per game and rebounds per game at 5.9 and 7.00, respectively. in what must be a surprising anomoly for some in the media, players that are on the court for more minutes tend to have better numbers in their "per game" statistics. part of the reason dampier had such a good season was the fact that without the availability of foyle off the bench he had to play more minutes...and he finished the year with career highs in both points per game and rebounds per game with 12.3 and 12, respectively. (last year was the first time dampier had more than 23/24 mpg since the 98/99 season.) i would be surprised if foyle didn't see significant increases in his "per game" statistics, if he stays healthy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting goldenstatefan:</div><div class="quote_post">if foyle is able to show some durability next year and throughout the length of his contract it will be a good signing. it's always a surprise when people in the media make comments about a player's stats and yet never seem to factor in the number of minutes they played or the role in which they were used. foyle's only had one year in which he averaged more than 21 minutes per game...and surprise, surprise, he had his best statistical season in both points per game and rebounds per game at 5.9 and 7.00, respectively. in what must be a surprising anomoly for some in the media, players that are on the court for more minutes tend to have better numbers in their "per game" statistics. part of the reason dampier had such a good season was the fact that without the availability of foyle off the bench he had to play more minutes...and he finished the year with career highs in both points per game and rebounds per game with 12.3 and 12, respectively. (last year was the first time dampier had more than 23/24 mpg since the 98/99 season.) i would be surprised if foyle didn't see significant increases in his "per game" statistics, if he stays healthy.</div> The Media Bias and Ignorance You know that's a good point, goldenstatefan, about how the media or some sports fans always mention the stats per game rather than per minute. I mean the media always highlights the marquee star players (because most average people who follow the nba are familar with the stars only and probably don't know or care about the other names floating around other than their own team). So many underrated basketball players are not mentioned in the news because they never get the chance to make their stats stand out with the number of touches and minutes they get. One example: Shane Battier. Another example: Joe Johnson after he got traded from the Celtics. Touches and Minutes Let's say for example you give a role player that is an underrated scorer, the opportunity to receive the ball and score. He could probably be 18 ppg. (I mean would we have looked at 2nd rounder Gilbert Arenas differently if he didn't get the minutes/touches to prove he could be a star scorer?). And also if you put in an underrated guy that few basketball fans really pay attention to like Michael Redd (from last year), Raja Bell or Jumaine Jones, and you get all of them some good teammates, a playmaking point guard, a good coach and give him the ball 15-20 times, they'll score a lot of points and some, like Michael Redd, could essentially become rising stars when their stats start wowing people. It's partly about the touches and the players around around a star that make him a star, and then the other part it's all about consistency, the skills to make your team better, and the killer instinct of wanting the ball and putting up with that pressure. A lot of those players I mentioned above either lack killer instinct, they can't take the pressure of shooting the last shot, or they aren't consistent, or they need one or more dimensions to their game still that make their team better enough to win games. But that's not to say that they can't provide a lot of other things that can make their team better. For instance, Raja Bell has his aggressive defense, his quickness in the open court, and decent shooting touch (when Hapring was out he was able to score 20+ ppg game on some nights before the trade that involved Giricek happened). Also the next underrated guy, Jumaine Jones is a terrific defender and explosive, and I don't even know if this guy is being used correctly since the Celtics didn't protect this guy in the Charlotte Bobcats expansion draft. And then Michael Redd, I said this guy last year was going to be a star and nobody believed me. Now looks who's laughing. He just needs to polish some more of his other shooting guard skills and he'll be even more awesome. The guy can shoot, he can play some point, and he's a good slasher. And obviously warrior fans can relate to a lot of underrated players on our squad in the same fashion such as Foyle's production as a role player and Jason Richardson's potential as a superstar scorer. Young Talented Core and Potential + Teamwork might be the next best thing to a true franchise player I guess what I'm trying to say is if you can see talent and potential stardom that the media is ignorant of, then you can ignore what they have to say because maybe they don't have a real opinion of their own or they never followed a player they were mentioning. I like Mullin's knack for players with the complete package of fundamentals (except Dunleavy because he's spoon fed) but I don't agree with his sense of finance. I like his core group though. And although a lot writers agree with my opinion on Mullin's moves that have reduced the chances of re-signing those young core players, they probably don't see the benefits of the players he has signed. Foyle's production is pretty solid when given starter's minutes as mentioned in earlier posts and Fisher is just a champ who is a complete package in a point guard and talented/smart even though his physical abilities and his age will limit his impact later on. Anyway, I've always suspected these writers just hack write, they don't know enough about basketball to make their own opinions about these players or they just are plain ignorant. Right now, I think we've got several potential underrated stars on our team (okay, not Foyle but guys like Jrich, Dunleavy Jr. Pietrus, Murphy, Claxton), but no true franchise player. So its important to look for versatility (open court/half court game), a good coach to respond to/make the adjustments and most importantly team chemistry (getting familar with your teammates' game). I thinking that hopefully, the Warriors can be more successful competing and accumlating enough value in their players to make the right trades (if they need to) in order to get closer to getting a franchise type of player. (Hopefully not by ruining chemistry because the team is more important.) I'd actually be happy with V.C. and Paul Pierce, who aren't "true franchise players" but they can carry a team on some nights when the team is playing badly and we could use their help if Jrich's never becomes a guy that can score consistently through tough defense. And speaking of defense, because defense is a defining attribute of a playoff team I believe that if we must have all 5 players on the court as defensive minded players (even if they are slow like Dunleavy and Fisher), reading/executing plays, and communicating on D, boxing out/setting screens for others and such. All the Warriors would need next is just a good set up guy, a playmaker, and a guy or two that can create instant offense when all things go wrong or get disorganized. I think this is what Mullin is trying to do with the Dunleavy/Jrich/Pietrus/Fisher/Claxton backcourt and trying to bring in as much defense as possible in the front court and designate Troy Murphy as the inside/outside scorer with Foyle as the defensive stopper until Biedrens develops and can do what Murph and Foyle do so well. You all know that Murphy was never a good defender outside of post defense but he'll bring other intangibles to the game like his size, aggressive rebounding, foot speed, footwork, improved ballhandling, and shooting. My Definition of True Franchise Players and why Golden State has failed to secure one also here is how I define a true franchise player since my definition may differ from others: True franchise players IMO are players that can carry a team most of the time even with a bad roster. I also feel that true franchise players usually are a playmaking point guard or a big man because those are the guys that usually make their teammates better and create the most offense. Points guards can shoot from anywhere on the court, pass, penetrate, get to the line. Lot of weapons to choose from. Power forwards or Centers rebound, block, score high % points in the paint, and create offense by kicking the outlet pass to the wing for a 3 or a long 2, set high post plays, pick and roll, screens, or involve themselves in Princeton offense/backdoor cut plays. That's why I think Power Forwards/Centers and Point guards are so vital for a team and most likely will be the franchise players that can carry a team. But even before the Detroit Pistons won the championship, I was like if you get all 3 of those positions and they all are more than decent collection of players like Chauncey Billups, Rasheed Wallace, and Ben Wallace and give them scoring/defensive role players + team defense + good coach, it's proven to be just as good as having a franchise player like Shaq or Garnett. The Obvious The obvious is that the Warriors have had bad front office management in the past that would either draft for need and pick the safe pick with a low or average upside when the Warriors needed a high risk high pay off type of player to make the most impact when the FA market was impossible to obtain a franchise player. But when we got a GM like St. Jean who would have great draft pick choices, he wouldn't know how to get them to play team ball and trade for the right role players to develop and surround him to make him better. Then there's even more of the obvious. What positions have the Warriors suffered getting for 10 years straight?? A playmaking point guard and a star big man. (Joe Smith above average but not good, Donyell Marshall = tweener, Todd Fuller = worst pick ever in the last decade, and all of the rest of our point guards weren't high projections anyway (Gilbert Arenas was the exception). I mean a franchise point guard and a franchise power forward/center are so hard it's no wonder the Warriors have suffered for so long but we definitely lacked them and the teamwork so it hurt. Hindsight I would have been much happier had the warriors taken a chance on Rasheed or KG with that number 1 pick they had. And then gotten Steve Nash rather than Todd Fuller the following year (we missed out on Kobe btw then we did it again when we missed out on T-mac the year after Fuller following one of the worst losing seasons). And the next couple of years we traded away our draft picks and signed on guys that were talented players but just could not play a defensive game or a a team game where people weren't just playing for stats. And this is why we've suffered. Bad picks + bad trades involving our future 1rst round picks for little/no talent = no franchise players + bad chemistry = losing records = no playoff = no major coaches, no FA's wanting to sign. And even with the good drafts that St. Jean actually got, we never really had the right pieces to win. I still think it was the big guy or point guard we should have looked at so that we could have gotten to the playoffs a lot sooner and then gotten a lot of the underrated guys that few people rarely see as being above average players. And because of Mullin's knack for finding talent through trade or draft, I think that Mullin could never be as bad as Twardzick's drafts or Gary St. Jean's trades since Mullin and I have the same basketball philosophy. Only Mullin's long term and financial plans I worry about because of the long contract signings that use up all the MLE. But there must be a reason for it because he knows, like some of us, that Foyle can produce well during limited minutes or posess the intangibles like Derek Fisher in the clutch or bring playoff and championship team experience to a franchise that only experienced those things since 10 and 29 years ago. I think with Mullin's team he can prove what he did last year in that lot of underrated players can go beyond people's expectations and prove a lot of people wrong. So if this year the starting rotation and bench stay healthy I'm looking for the media to start jumping on the bandwagon when they see all these guys who they rated low initially, suddenly become mentioned quite frequently among average fans and the press.
Holy Crap Custodianrules, great post. That was a good read.:thumbsup: I'll give my comments when I have more time...movie time!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">Holy Crap Custodianrules, great post. That was a good read.:thumbsup: I'll give my comments when I have more time...movie time!</div> It's a lot of run on sentences but I had a lot to say with regards to Mullin's moves as GM, the previous GM's moves, the fact the media sometimes say ignorant things about players, and how having a guy that understands good basketball fundamentals (and hopefully team financials) will put together a good team. If its hard to understand or isn't fluid I apologize, but it was kind of put together pretty quickly.
umm...i doubt this has anything to do with this topic, but i played ESPN 2K4, and i was playin Indiana in my 2nd year franchise, and Foyle was unstoppable. He made the NBA first team at the end. Does he actually have that much talent? I dont know much about his history, but to me, hes not that great.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jtam101:</div><div class="quote_post">umm...i doubt this has anything to do with this topic, but i played ESPN 2K4, and i was playin Indiana in my 2nd year franchise, and Foyle was unstoppable. He made the NBA first team at the end. Does he actually have that much talent? I dont know much about his history, but to me, hes not that great. </div>He'll give you shotblocking, rebounding, good all around defense, he's not first team nba material. He's a heck of a role player though. He can score some but he doesn't have a whole lot of moves.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Rudeezy:</div><div class="quote_post">haha...we live in a day in age where people get their opinions of players based on video games.</div> Hey, not me! I still get my opinions about players the old fashoned way: consulting astrological charts and chicken bones. It's really the only way to accurately gauge a guy's pro potential. By the way, Jupiter was rising in the house of Virgo on the morning Biedrins was born, so...needlesss to say, he's going to be pretty good...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">Hey, not me! I still get my opinions about players the old fashoned way: consulting astrological charts and chicken bones. It's really the only way to accurately gauge a guy's pro potential. By the way, Jupiter was rising in the house of Virgo on the morning Biedrins was born, so...needlesss to say, he's going to be pretty good...</div>Ha! I'd think paying Miss Cleo $4.95 a minute would get you somewhere quicker than charts and bones. And you'd get to hear her talk about Biedren's game as she's slipping in and out of her Jamaican accent. BTW I heard NBA Live 2004 Jrich can dunk from the half court line while doing a 360 so he must be able to do that in real life.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">While doing a 360?!? That's impossible...</div> I'm joking but if you got me the video game source I'd mess around with some jump values that could probably make it so he could leap that far while doing a 360 or backflips and what not. It'd be like the movie Teen Wolf where Michael J. Fox flies through the air and dunks over traffic.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting custodianrules2:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm joking</div> So was I... :mrgreen: Well, at least we finally know the terms of Foyle's contract. It's five years guaranteed starting at 6.5 mil with 12.5% increases (or .81 mil) per year. Here's the breakdown: Year 1: 6.5 Y2: 7.31 Y3: 8.12 Y4: 8.93 Y5: 9.74 Y6: guaranteed for 1 mil, but if he's on the roster the first day of training camp, he'll make 10.55 mil. So that's 40.6 mil guaranteed for 5 years plus another 1 mil guaranteed for the sixth year (and I think its safe to say that there is no chance Foyle will be around here in that sixth year). By the way, this would be the rough breakdown of Damp's contract if the NY deal goes down (assuming he gets 12.5% increases as well): Y1: 9 Y2: 10.1 Y2: 11.2 Y3: 12.3 Y4: 13.4 Y5: 14.5 Y6: 15.6 I don't think I would have wanted Mullin to re-sign Damp to that contract. But the question is if you were Mullin and you had to choose between Damp at his contract or Foyle at his contract, which would you take? I really don't know which one I'd take.
Well this team can't be a donut team (nothing in the middle), So I would choose the guy that wants to be here. Damp's motivation was always questioned even when he was getting the ball. If there's a guy that wants Damp's huge salary I'm fine with it as long as we get quality big men in return with short contracts (in case they end up playing miserably for us). BTW that is some slick yearly salary charts, Walk It's too bad we can't structure any contract like: Y1: 0 Y2: 0 Y2: 0 Y3: 0 Y4: 0 Y5: 0 Y6: 86.1 and not guarantee that last year
Thanks for the breakdown WT. Much like CR, I would stick with Foyle. The guy has the heart of a lion(whatever that means) and wants to be here. You know he is going to put forth the effort night in and night out. Plus he's cheaper.
