<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This year's MVP race should be as lopsided as 2000's, when Shaquille O'Neal would have won unanimously had Fred Hickman, now of ESPN, not tried to be unique. That Nash might not win -- that plenty of people are arguing Kobe Bryant or LeBron James should win the MVP when their teams are a combined 10 games over .500 while the Suns are 33-17 -- is inexplicable. So inexplicable that the mere mention of another candidate makes me wonder how Nash won a season ago. Last season, Nash won the trophy for the immaculate way he conducted the league's best offense. The Suns were a beautiful, wide-open symphony that hinged on Nash's ability to allow brilliant soloists like Stoudemire, Shawn Marion and Joe Johnson to play great melodies while players like Quentin Richardson held the beat by staying within themselves, only showing flourishes when called upon. Phoenix played basketball's beautiful game, and Nash served as Pele. And the Suns did it without a center. That's bumping without bass, but they kept it funky. A great deal of the credit for that should go to Mike D'Antoni's compositions, but they would have gone nowhere without Nash holding the baton.</div> Source The article goes on to make a great case for Nash, but I lauged with the comment "And the Suns did it without a center. That's bumping without bass, but they kept it funky." So what do you all think? Is Nash a runaway, and should Lebron and Kobe even be mentioned in this race?
Here's another funny quote in that article... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Steve Nash is the best point guard in the NBA. Allen Iverson is a better player, but calling him a point guard because he brings the ball up the floor is like putting a kitten in the oven and calling it a biscuit.</div> Where does this guy get this stuff? EDIT: And yet another... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yet the band has kept making great music, the same way NWA kept churning out hits after Ice Cube left. Cube was great, but Dr. Dre was the masterful maestro that made the group work. Nash is Dre, even if it sounds strange to put him next to a hip-hop producer.</div>
Eazy-E > Dr. Dre Anyways, I don't think theirs any question Nash is the MVP. He has the Suns playing really good basketball without Amare. Between Billups and Nash, I think you give the edge to Nash. Take Chauncey off the Pistons and they will at least make the 8th seed in the weak Eastern conference. Take Nash off the Suns, and they will be cellar dwellers like they were 2 seasons ago even with Marion, JJ, and Amare.
I don't know why, but I don't like the thought of giving it to Nash. That team is still loaded, even with the departure of JJ, Q, and Amare's injury. Shawn Marion is still there and giving them 20/10 every night. Raja Bell has been phenomenal for them. Kurt Thomas has been solid. James Jones is doing what he was brought there for. Leandro Barbosa has been good when healthy. Boris Diaw has been phenomenal and is probably my pick for most improved player this year. Overall, he's still got a great supporting cast, even without the aformentioned trio that's been lost. If you look at Kobe and his team, you wonder where they'd be without him. Take Kobe away, the Lakers go nowhere. He is the reason why they win. He's the heart and soul of that team, and without him, the Lakers are a top 5 team in the lottery. However, you take Nash away, the Suns still have enough talent to win games and at least get the 8th seed.
That's where we disagree Moo2K4. I don't at all think the Suns would make the playoffs without Nash, even if Amare was there. That supporting cast you mentioned, they're not as good as they seem without Nash. It is a team of players rejected and underappreciated by their former team(s) that have been made better by Nash and D'Antoni's system. If anything, your argument supports giving Bryan Colangelo GM of the Year again, since he was able to bring in a new set of players for Nash to make better.
<-----MVP Look, Moo2K4... I understand the argument for Kobe your making. But I'd rather puke cannonballs than hear it again. It's tired. Kobe is a phenominal talent, no question. But LA is how many games above .500? He is, no doubt the MVP of the Lakers. The NBA? Not even close. When they were winning I would say you had a stab. But name one MVP, EVER, on a team barely above .500. Just one. And you think that will change? Nash, Billups, Timmie and Dirk all die in a tragic lawn dart accident over All-star weekend... KOBE IS STILL NOT THE MVP! And Downtown said it, but I'll reiterate in a slightly different way. It's not the points, stats or even the publics perception of how good you are... it's what you do for your team, and in Nash's case what he does for his teammates. He simply makes them better. That includes Marion and Amare. Just ask them. They freely admit it. They're both phenominal, don't get me wrong. But Nash makes every player better. Diaw is proof of that. I'm watching them destroy Houston right now. Any questions? j
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shawn Marion is still there and giving them 20/10 every night. Raja Bell has been phenomenal for them. Kurt Thomas has been solid. James Jones is doing what he was brought there for. Leandro Barbosa has been good when healthy. Boris Diaw has been phenomenal and is probably my pick for most improved player this year.</div> The Suns had Joe Johnson, Shawn Marion, Amare Stoudamire, and Stephon Marbury for half of the season and they were one of the worst teams in the West. Is it a coincidence that once Nash came, all those players (except Marbury obviously) got better and Pheonix won over 60 games? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Overall, he's still got a great supporting cast, even without the aformentioned trio that's been lost. If you look at Kobe and his team, you wonder where they'd be without him. Take Kobe away, the Lakers go nowhere. He is the reason why they win. He's the heart and soul of that team, and without him, the Lakers are a top 5 team in the lottery.</div> Oh, how did I know Kobe Bryant was going to be brough up. Look, Kobe has been amazing this year, but the Lakers are only the 8th seed. Hell, they only have 6 more wins than the Raptors. Take Bosh off of the Raptors and Toronto will probably get the #1 pick. He is the heart and soul of the Raptors, but does that make him an MVP canidate? No. Is Kobe in the top 5? Maybe, but he has fallen off quite a bit and is definitely not a top 3 canidate. The 81 points was very impressive, but people jumped to conclusions way too quick. I mean, Steve Kerr said the MVP was locked up for god sakes, that's how much people got excited. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">However, you take Nash away, the Suns still have enough talent to win games and at least get the 8th seed.</div> Again, how come Marion, JJ, Amare, and Marbury couldn't make the playoffs? I mean, it's not like they were the 9th seed, they were horrible that year.
They did actually make the playoffs one year, which was Amare's rookie season. However, where has Marbury gone where a team has been successful? He made the playoffs that one time. However, I'm not going to bring that up cause that's an entirely different argument. I'm just saying this. The Suns last year had more than enough talent to make the playoffs. I'll go so far to say they had one of the best starting fives in the NBA, even if Nash was taken out of the equation. However, they rely so heavily on him to make plays for them, that's why they couldn't win. Last year no one else on that team knew what to do when he was on the court. Note that everyone outside of Shawn Marions production went down. I think that team could have done well without him, as long as they never had him. But, since they're used to him running the offense and his uncanny ability to find openings in the defense, it's much harder for them to succeed without him in the lineup. Trust me, I can see him getting the MVP again this year, I'm not ruling it out of the question. I'm just saying that his team could do well without him. The Lakers would be a lottery lock without Kobe.
The Suns have a great team, team being the keyword. I don't see Nash as the MVP this season because while he has nice numbers, I've seen this team play too well when he's not on the floor, and even better without him on the court. Diaw came in as a point forward who was supposed to handle the ball and allow JT to be a scorer in ATL. He never got the chance to show that as a guard, but he is now as a forward. When Nash isn't in the game, the teams offensive efficiency hardly takes a hit, and their defense is improved. Even when Nash is on the court, Diaw is given playmaking duties from the highpost, and he's very succesful. The Suns again have a massive amount of shooters, actually more this season than last. Their depth is vastly improved, and they aren't dependent on Nash. Obviously Nash helps them be a good team, you don't take out a good PG without replacing him with something, and have a team improve, but taking out Marion would have the same effect on the team, and they aren't dependent on him. The team is winning as a whole, not just because of Nash. If this team like the team last year couldn't maintain, and even build leads when they went to the bench, they wouldn't win nearly as much. Nash would also have to play more minutes, which wouldn't help his back. Raja, Marion, Diaw, and Jones all score more efficienctly when Nash is on the bench. The main differene with and without him is that for Marion, he get's to play inside more, and has a nice connection with Diaw. For Diaw, he can penetrate and scoring insdie more, and for Bell and Jones, they don't have to be as one dimensional in their offense, and can do more than just catch and shoot. Nash should be in the race, but truly no more than Marion this season, but Marion won't get noticed unless he get's injured, and he won't get injured.
og15, given your argument for Nash not being MVP.. I'm curious as to who you think should be? I'm wondering because I'd like to contrast your characterization of Nash to any other MVP candidate. Because I personally think he deserves it as much, if not more, than last year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know why, but I don't like the thought of giving it to Nash. That team is still loaded, even with the departure of JJ, Q, and Amare's injury. Shawn Marion is still there and giving them 20/10 every night. Raja Bell has been phenomenal for them. Kurt Thomas has been solid. James Jones is doing what he was brought there for. Leandro Barbosa has been good when healthy. Boris Diaw has been phenomenal and is probably my pick for most improved player this year. Overall, he's still got a great supporting cast, even without the aformentioned trio that's been lost.</div> But here is the thing, Nash MADE those guys who they are. Okay, Marion is something else but guys like Diaw, Bell, Barbosa, Jones are on top of their game and having career seasons because of Nash. He's the one that gets them going. Thomas struggled early on but he is slowly getting into a groove but Nash is ultimately the master mind behind all of this. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you look at Kobe and his team, you wonder where they'd be without him. Take Kobe away, the Lakers go nowhere. He is the reason why they win. He's the heart and soul of that team, and without him, the Lakers are a top 5 team in the lottery. However, you take Nash away, the Suns still have enough talent to win games and at least get the 8th seed.</div> I said this a million times but if that's how you look at MVP Iverson should have about 3-4 MVP's by now. But I guarantee you if I was saying this about Iverson a couple years back while Kobe is on the Lakers WITH SHAQ(also Kobe being in contention for MVP as well) and winning 50 games, again I guarantee 99% of Laker fans would say AI doesn't deserve it because his team is not winning or in other words aren't a top seed/not on pace to win 50. See what I'm saying? If you don't that?s okay. My main point is that no matter what, if the Lakers aren't a top seed or on pace to win 50 Kobe doesn't deserve MVP PERIOD. There have been MANY great superstars that have been in Kobe position and they didn't get MVP so why should Kobe be any special? Wow. He scored 81. So what? At the end of the day it's all about the record THEN the stats. If you look back at every single MVP had their team winning about 54+ games so how would it look if you give it to Kobe who probably might have the Lakers winning only 43-44 games. But anyways, I got Dirk for MVP.
durvasa - I'm not a stat guy, but that is a pretty interresting article. og15 - How many of their games have you watched? I'm going to guess not very many this season, but even still, I think you've missed the point entirely, much like alot of people have. Nash importance is what he brings to the team as a leader AND as a player. Statistically (and as I just said, I'm not much of a stat guy), you have nothing to prove your argument at all, but even if you did, it's really not so much what they do without him on the court as what he's taught his teammates and what they all (or at least nearly all) freely admit that they've learned from him that has helped their game and, in effect, what they can do now without him on the floor than they could before. The reason the Lakers suck without Kobe on the floor is because he hasn't made them better players, not that I'm saying they are as good as the rest of Nash's team. But to blow your theory completely out of the water, how many games did the Suns win when Nash was injured and Amare and Marion were healthy last year? I'll 0 give 0 you 0 a 0 hint. j
The arguments I've heard so far against Nash, are in my opinion just arguments for him and for the rest of the players. Yeah, when Nash is on the bench, the rest of the team plays great without him. So then give Diaw Most Improved and Eddie House 6th Man, that doesn't diminish Nash's importance, because when he is conducting the offense, it is a near flawless masterpiece. I don't say it only as a TV viewer, but the other day I went to the game vs. the Kings, and while people cheered, I just stood there in awe of how smooth and efficiently this offense flows.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But to blow your theory completely out of the water, how many games did the Suns win when Nash was injured and Amare and Marion were healthy last year? I'll 0 give 0 you 0 a 0 hint.</div> You accuse me of not watching them, which is far from the truth, yet you didn't even know they won 2 games, one against the Mavericks your supposed favourite team when Nash was injured last year. Of course no one really payed attention when they went 2-1 the second time he got injured, and Barbosa averaged 15.3 PPG. I've watched 10+ Suns games this season, Marion is one of my favourite players, and I'm a fan of Diaw, so I'll watch them when they're on, which is a lot. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">og15, given your argument for Nash not being MVP.. I'm curious as to who you think should be? I'm wondering because I'd like to contrast your characterization of Nash to any other MVP candidate. Because I personally think he deserves it as much, if not more, than last year.</div> I can't say more than last year. One thing is that last season, they developed a dependence on him, which made him very valuable because they didn't know what to do without him. Now after the first injury, they realized that wasn't a good thing, and the second time he was injured, they were prepared, but that's what made him "more valuable" in the essence of the word. This year he's close to 20-10 in terms of PPG-APG, and he's been valuable to the team, but not so much as last season even with "superior" numbers, and without Amare. They've become even more of a team, they're able to attack from many ways that don't include Nash. Nash is a leader, a great playmaker, and a very good teammate, no one is denying that, but this team is more self sufficient than they were before. My choices would go: 1. Dirk Nowitzki - His team is 1 game or so back from the Pistons. They're a good team, so that can play against him, but Dirk has been playing very well offensively, decently defensively, and has taken a leadership role for his team. His scoring efficiency is up though he's not going to the line as much as last season, and he's been big for them down the stretch in many games. 2. Lebron James - You know, I didn't think I would put him here, but he's been carrying that team, even without Hughes. They're where they were last year, and if their's no implosion like last season, this team should make the playoffs with about 48-50 wins. 3. Dwyane Wade - People aren't mentioning him, and I really haven't thought of him as being here so much, but watching that team, and how they play when he's not on is sad. It's also due to having no suitable backup, that's normally what propels your significance to the team, but Miami is probably the team that has the biggest dropoff due to a single player when Wade is off. Even worse than the Lakers without Kobe, which is interesting. 4. Chauncey Billups - The Pistons recent slide has definately affected his ranking, but they're still the Top team in the league, and he's still the most significant guy on a very good roster. He makes guys better, he closes out games, and he's played very well for them. 5. Steve Nash - All that needs to be said has been said. A very good leader, a very good playmaker, makes other's better, and he himself scores efficiently, and puts pressure on the defense. They're still winning without Amare, and are on pace to 55 wins. 6. Elton Brand - He's played great this season. The team has been through a lot of annoying injuries that are constantly picking at the lack of depth. Maggette and Zelly have only played 13 games, Livingston was out for 21, and Ross has been out. The Clippers were 2 games behind the Suns till fatigue [9 games in 15 days], and another injury to Q.Ross slowed them down again. Brand has been a leader on the team, constantly puts them in position to win, is a very good defensive player, and solidifies the Clippers good defense along with Kaman. This season he has also become a player that can close out games. 7. Kobe Bryant - Kobe's playing great, nothing really needs to be explained, but 26-26 is not going to cut it. Also he's not been much of a leader lately with how he reacts to his teammates, and with his body language on the court. 8. Tim Duncan - He's been injured a little, he's not really playing as well as he can, but he makes that defense, and he draws a lot of attention that helps the other guys get easier oppurtunities. Outside of like 2 games last season, I haven't really seen Manu play that well without Duncan, so he helps him with the attention he draws. 9. Allen Iverson - His team is under .500, that's about it. We all know what he's doing on the court, but the team is 25-27. 10. Tony Parker - Interesting one with Duncan also being there, but Parker has really stepped it up this year. You could say he's "taking advantage of the new rules", but that's also being smart. He's been great for the Spurs, and even when Duncan was out, he was the one that carried the Spurs against the Raps.
og, I'm going off memory here. I have no stats, and I would swear they didn't win one without him the whole game, but assuming you're right, that's still a 2-5 record. That's not a playoff pace... or even close. j
I didn't say it was, but the first time he was out, they were already having a little slide due to fatigue. They had already lost two games in a row with him playing, to Utah and Indiana [the game he got injured]. They then lost a starter during a slide, and lost 3 more. One of the losses was to Detroit on the road, so even with Nash, I'm not sure if they would've won anyways. The others to Washington which was a back to back right after the Indy game, and to Memphis who had had their numbers all year in terms of giving them tough games. When Nash returned, they then lost one more to San Antonio before they started winning again. In that time, they had 9 games in 13 days, 3 sets of back to backs with one day of rest in between, and then the normal game 1 day rest for the 3 other games. They played their most games for a month in January. Most of the media people made it seem like they lost all 6 games without Nash even though he played in 3. The main problem for them was the adjustment of just saying, oh Nash will do the playmaking to having to change the whole offense around. They didn't look like a team, no one knew what to do. The Suns were trying to make Barbosa play Nash's role on offense, which was a hideous idea. The second time he got injured, they looked like a team. Barbosa was not a playmaker, he was a scorer, roles were refined, Smush Parker wasn't playing, and they went 2-1 even beating Dallas in that stretch. It was February, and after the All-Star break.
It's the System I think people are missing the point here. Each team has a system and in that system they have certain players that without, the system does not work. It just so happens that in the suns system, without Nash they cannot be a playoff team. This is why he is the MVP. Many other players such as Kobe or Iverson are the singular key players to a system. The reason they are not MVP's is beacuse their records do not reflect it. og15 - I do not understand why you are bringing up last years players. Yes they did figure out how to play better when Nash was injured but that's because they were good players. Joe Johnson could create plays for other teamates but not as well as Nash. Because of this they won a couple of games. So take this years players. I say the suns lose the three point shooting champion of last year, they lose the up and coming great JJ, Amare is out for most of the season, they lose center Steven Hunter, and what do they get back. Rja Bell- Who thought anything of this trade. A thought to be bust Boris Diaw, An older center in Kurt Thomas, and Eddie who? No one and I mean No one thought that the suns would have this kind off record. So how do you explain this. Are you going to tell me that with Barbosa as our starting point gaurd that the Suns are division leaders. The confidence Steve Nash breeds in everyone around him is seen and felt when he is off the floor. The suns close out games because Nash comes in at the end of games and gets the job done. If you can take away Amare and have this kind of record you could take away Marion and have this kind of record. However, you take away the only necessary piece in this POINT GUARD RUN SYSTEM for D'Antoni it cannot work. From this it can be concluded that this piece is the most valuable.
Nash had been doing the same thing in Dallas for years and no one even mentioned him in MVP talks, and he comes to Phoenix and gets all the attention. I dont see him any different from what he did in Dallas. Its just that he's in a better system and he has teammates that showcase his talent better. Without D'Antoni and the rest of the roster, Nash would be ineffective which in my opinion, doesn't make him the MVP.
Yeah it is the system - A SYSTEM BASED ON NASH'S GAME, that's why he's a top 3 MVP candidate. He was not getting 17 assists games on the regular when he was with Dallas. He was averaging 7 assists a game and hitting the 3-ball every now and then, and he was not running the team. now he runs the whole team. no other team right now is so much based on one player's style not even the lakers (kobe) or nets (kidd).
