No title for Nash or Company, The Suns are one of the best and most entertaining teams in the league, with one of the best playmakers in the league on their team. Nash is as good of a playmaker and point guard as they come in the NBA, but if recent history shows anything, he will not be winning a NBA title any time soon. Infact, if recent history proves to continue correct, the Nash's, Kidd's, Ford's, and other big time playmaking point guards in the league will not be winning any titles any time soon. Since the Pistons in 1990, only twice has a team that had a player that averaged more than seven assists per game in the regular season won an NBA title. For those two times, only once as that player been a point guard on that team. One team was the Bulls with Scottie Pippen in the 1991-92 season, and the Spurs with Avery Johnson in the 1999-2000 season. The fact is, that teams with the big playmaker point guards like Nash, Kidd, Ford and co. do not win championships in this day and age. Why is this? One point guard controlling the ball, and controlling where it goes alot, just does not win titles. Ball movement and flow wins out alot more, than the point guard controlling the ball alot, and trying to find the open man. Look at some of the systems that have won over the years. The Triangle offense which is based on ball movement and flow, is accountable for nine of the titles since that time. The point guards in the triangle just get the ball down court, and send the ball into motion, while going ino motion themselves. The Spurs offense has alot of flow and passing in it, Tony Parker never controlled the ball a whole lot, and made sure of where it went the entire game. He iniated the offense and went into motion, because steady ball movement wins these days. The Rockets had ball movement without Vernon Maxwell controlling where the ball goes alot, that Pistons team that won had ball movement without a point guard controlling where the ball went alot. The point guards these days need to get the ball down the court, and send the ball into motion. Another big reason, is that plamaking point guards do not draw double teams. Nash, Kidd, Paul, all of these guys do not cause you to draw double teams. Double teams these days is a very valuable part of ball movement. The Bulls had Jordan, Rockets had Hakeem, Lakers had Shaq, and the Spurs have Duncan. All of these guys drew double teams, which made their team that much better. You knew that they were gonna hurt you scoring, and had to try to double team them alot to get the ball out of their hands. That often left people open alot more often, and the ball movement allowed the ball to get to the open men. Playmaker point guards do not draw these same double teams, because teams already know they are not looking to score. Sure they can score, but they are not going to hurt you must by scoring. These guys are going to hurt most by their passing, making double teaming stupid.These are just a couple of reasons that I can think of for why the playmaker point guard is no longer winning championships in this day and age. What do you think? ----So I was bored the today, and thought about this. Was wondering what other people think, and if they got anything they disagree with.
howabout they just happen not to be on the best team?IMO there is no style of team that "doesn't win championships". It's just the best team wins at the end of the day.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Apr 28 2007, 11:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>howabout they just happen not to be on the best team?IMO there is no style of team that "doesn't win championships". It's just the best team wins at the end of the day.</div>Sometimes they were on the better teams in those years. Steve Nash and the Suns had the best team in the regular season two years ago, and lost come the playoffs. They had one of the best in the playoffs last season, and lost. Kevin Johnson on the Suns back in the day had a better bunch of all around players than the Bulls had, and racked up on assists. His team didn't win championships. They had more all around talent than the Rockets had, and lost to them. The Magic had a playmaker point guard in Hardaway, and a better all around team than the Rockets had, and lost to them in the playoffs. So it's not at all the best team that wins every year.You most of all should know that it doesn't come down to the best team wins at the end of the day. Golden State in no shape or form a better team, nore does it have better players on it's team than the Mavericks have. They are not as deep as the Mavericks, and they are definately not as good of a team as the Mavericks, but they are winning. Style of play does determine alot in the NBA, not just players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Apr 28 2007, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>howabout they just happen not to be on the best team?IMO there is no style of team that "doesn't win championships". It's just the best team wins at the end of the day.</div>His ball movement thing makes sense though. I can even apply it to the Raptors. We arent a championship team for sure, but we never play good if we dont move the ball, thats how a team naturally gets open shots. I think thats what players like Magic stressed. Moving the ball, the fastest way to move the ball is to pass, hence getting easier buckets and beating the defence.
That's an interesting stat, but I don't think that's the reason why teams don't win. Ball movement is never a bad thing. The Suns team's didn't win because Barkley was a lazy bum who partied too much. He didn't have the work ethic of our #1 player right now does. we did not lose because of Johnson.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Apr 29 2007, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's an interesting stat, but I don't think that's the reason why teams don't win. Ball movement is never a bad thing. The Suns team's didn't win because Barkley was a lazy bum who partied too much. He didn't have the work ethic of our #1 player right now does. we did not lose because of Johnson.</div>I don't want to seem like I'm attacking you all the time but Chuck played like a beast during the playoffs in 92-3. They didn't win because the Bulls just had that little extra, Jordan averaged over 40ppg in the finals I think. Plus Paxson made THAT shot to win it all. If he hadn't made that shot I would have said Phoenix wins it in 7, but thats life. To say that Barkley was a lazy bum is crazy. How else does a guy who physically shouldn't be able to compete become one of the best PF's of all time? Yes, he liked to party but when it came to game time the man got down to business.
It wasn't meant so much for that year. I know he did well, I learned more about that series recently and there's even game 4 on tv-links.co.uk if you want to see it. It was more meant towards the big time choke against Houston. I'm going by what my dad said on that one since he was living here at the time and remembers it well. It's no secret that Barkley liked his partying and obviously now you can see that he really loves to eat too. He wasn't as focused as Nash is now. All I mean by this is that it's not Kevin Johnson that lost it for us and getting assists is not a reason for losing.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Apr 28 2007, 05:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No title for Nash or Company, The Suns are one of the best and most entertaining teams in the league, with one of the best playmakers in the league on their team. Nash is as good of a playmaker and point guard as they come in the NBA, but if recent history shows anything, he will not be winning a NBA title any time soon. Infact, if recent history proves to continue correct, the Nash's, Kidd's, Ford's, and other big time playmaking point guards in the league will not be winning any titles any time soon. Since the Pistons in 1990, only twice has a team that had a player that averaged more than seven assists per game in the regular season won an NBA title. For those two times, only once as that player been a point guard on that team. One team was the Bulls with Scottie Pippen in the 1991-92 season, and the Spurs with Avery Johnson in the 1999-2000 season. The fact is, that teams with the big playmaker point guards like Nash, Kidd, Ford and co. do not win championships in this day and age. Why is this?</div>Because it is rare you get a great playmaker (whether it be point guard or point forward) and also have a great scorer. MJ had this with Scottie, Shaq had a scorer and playmaker in Kobe, Pistons had a playmaker and scorer in Billups, SA has Parker, Heat had a playmaker and scorer in Wade, etc... The reason these players didn't average 7APG or more is because the scorers demanded the ball a lot and also created plays for others (ie- Wade, without Shaq this year, was averaging 8APG). But the importance of these playmakers should not be overlooked, as without those skills those championships wouldn't have been won. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>One point guard controlling the ball, and controlling where it goes alot, just does not win titles. Ball movement and flow wins out alot more, than the point guard controlling the ball alot, and trying to find the open man. Look at some of the systems that have won over the years. The Triangle offense which is based on ball movement and flow, is accountable for nine of the titles since that time. The point guards in the triangle just get the ball down court, and send the ball into motion, while going ino motion themselves. The Spurs offense has alot of flow and passing in it, Tony Parker never controlled the ball a whole lot, and made sure of where it went the entire game. He iniated the offense and went into motion, because steady ball movement wins these days. The Rockets had ball movement without Vernon Maxwell controlling where the ball goes alot, that Pistons team that won had ball movement without a point guard controlling where the ball went alot. The point guards these days need to get the ball down the court, and send the ball into motion.</div>The players of the triangle and the inspiring coach had a lot more to do with the titles that the Lakers/Bulls won rather than the actual offensive system. Bulls had the GOAT, a top 50 players in Pippen, IMO the best rebounder of all time in Dennis, and a set of role players perfectly fit in. Lakers had arguably the MDE in Shaq, an awesome youngster who was able to dominate on both sides of the ball, and a fantastic set of role players which had a mix of experience and youth. Outside of Stockton and Kidd (both were within 2 games of a title), there really hasn't been a PG at the level of Magic, Big O, or Cousy in the past 20 years or so. Stockton, outside of Malone, never had a good enough team around him to beat Jordan's Bulls, and the Nets teams of 02 and 03 were far from a championship caliber supporting cast. Payton is also a top 10 PG of all time, and also got to the Finals, but again, didn't have enough to get past Jordan and his entourage.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Another big reason, is that plamaking point guards do not draw double teams. Nash, Kidd, Paul, all of these guys do not cause you to draw double teams. Double teams these days is a very valuable part of ball movement. The Bulls had Jordan, Rockets had Hakeem, Lakers had Shaq, and the Spurs have Duncan. All of these guys drew double teams, which made their team that much better. You knew that they were gonna hurt you scoring, and had to try to double team them alot to get the ball out of their hands. That often left people open alot more often, and the ball movement allowed the ball to get to the open men. Playmaker point guards do not draw these same double teams, because teams already know they are not looking to score. Sure they can score, but they are not going to hurt you must by scoring. These guys are going to hurt most by their passing, making double teaming stupid.</div>Nash is an amazing playmaker, but because of the system and cast of players he has around him, he becomes a VERY dangerous scorer as well. He is a 18-20PPG scorer on over 50% shooting, shoots over 40% from 3, amazing in transition, and in the clutch in the playoffs last year he totally dominated the Mavs with his scoring. If you do double him, it is a dunk for Amare or a 3 for Bell.This whole arguement seems to be based off of ball movement, but while Nash averages around 11.5APG, the Suns are all about ball movement. Everyone is a good passer on this team, and they average a league high 26APG. You have both Diaw and Barbosa who can distribute the ball well, and if all else fails, get it to Amare in the post (averaged 30PPG with Nash hurt). Without the great ball movement from the other players, this team wouldn't be near as effective as they are.This team is far more than a one man show, and I am confident they can win a title now that they are healthy. Whether they can live up to their abilities has yet to be seen, but I feel comfortable in my pick of the Suns winning the 2007 championship.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Apr 29 2007, 11:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It wasn't meant so much for that year. I know he did well, I learned more about that series recently and there's even game 4 on tv-links.co.uk if you want to see it. It was more meant towards the big time choke against Houston. I'm going by what my dad said on that one since he was living here at the time and remembers it well. It's no secret that Barkley liked his partying and obviously now you can see that he really loves to eat too. He wasn't as focused as Nash is now. All I mean by this is that it's not Kevin Johnson that lost it for us and getting assists is not a reason for losing.</div>Damn right about KJ. When Nash leads us to the title this year then this thread will be proved wrong.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Milgod @ Apr 29 2007, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Damn right about KJ. When Nash leads us to the title this year then this thread will be proved wrong.</div>When?When?What happened to the other 15 teams? May I quote you on that?
You're actually basing them winning one off of a dumb stat like that, playa? It's pretty obvious now that you're just hating.
Chauncey Billups is a big playmaker PG. Jason Williams isn't as big but he's somewhat a playmaker, averages a good amount of assists. The only thing between the Suns and a championship is the Spurs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Apr 29 2007, 07:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're actually basing them winning one off of a dumb stat like that, playa? It's pretty obvious now that you're just hating.</div>No...they're not gonna win because they won't be able to "run" out of the western bracketSan Antonio will put them in their place
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Apr 30 2007, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>When?When?What happened to the other 15 teams? May I quote you on that?</div>Quote me all you want.
