Pacersfan was being a dipshit and started this argument in another thread, carrying it over here as to not jack the other thread.I don't see what all the Miller fuss is about. Pierce is twice the player he was. Miller was a 18/3/3/1 player with 47% FGs and 39.5% 3s. Paul is a 23.6/6.6/4 (3.9)/2 (1.7) player with 44% and 36% on his career avgs. Hell even Paul owns Reggie in the post season, putting up 24.5/8.5/4.7 with upwards of a steal a game while Reggie put up 20.8/2.9/2.3 with barely a steal a game. Plus Pierce already has as many ASG apperances as Reggie and is well on his way to his 6th. Pierce > Reggie.
Pierce hands down, he's averaged more than Reggie did in his best season 4 times already, and is on pace for a 5th (easily). He's the better rebounder, scorer, passer and defensive player. The only thing Reggie has on him are 3 point shooting (not that Paul's bad in that area at all either) and FT% (again not a weakness of Pierce's), as well as a few clutch shots.
Don't call Pacersfan a dipshit man.Anyway, it's Pierce. Reggie may be the better shooter, but that's all he does. Pierce is also a very good shooter, and he can take it in as well. He scores more points, and he plays better defense. He's an excellent rebounder for a swingman also.It's Paul Pierce. He can do more things than Reggie ever did.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Dec 25 2006, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I refuse to post in this thread.</div>It's alright to admit me and blaze were right the whole time.
Okay, this is going to be my only post in this thread (which means it probably won't be)Pierce (Career ): GP GS MPG FG% 3fg% FT% ORPG DRPG RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG629 627 37.8 .440 .360 .791 1.1 5.4 6.6 3.9 1.7 0.7 3.15 3.00 23.6Miller (Career) :GP GS MPG FG% 3FG% FT% ORPG DRPG RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG1389 1304 34.3 .471 .395 .888 .6 2.4 3.0 3.0 1.08 .20 1.73 2.0 18.2So, who has the advantage in each catagory?Games Played: Miller (760 more)Games Started: Miller (677 more)Minutes Per Game: Pierce (3.5 more per game)Field Goal Percentage: Miller (.31 higher percentage)3 Point Field Goal Percentage: Miller (.35 higher)Free Throw Percentage: Miller (0.097 higher) (Do you realize how many more games the celtics could've one if Pierce would hit one or two more free throws in a game?)Offensive Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (.5 per game higher)Defensive Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (3.0 per game higher)Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (3.6 higher)* I'm sure we can all agree that Pierce had much more athletiscm than Miller had, enabling him to rebound much easier. Milelr was a pretty good rebounder for his lack of athletiscm*Assist Per Game: Pierce (.9 higher)Steals Per Game: Pierce (.62 higher)Blocks Per Game: Pierce (.50 higher) (Once again, the athletiscm difference)Turnovers Per Game: Miller (1.42 less per game)Personal Fouls Per Game: Miller (1.0 less per game)Points Per Game: Tie (Miller had much higher scoring sidekicks, which means his scoring wouldn't be as high)Clutch: Miller (Obviously, Miller is first or second in the category depending on where you put Michael Jordan)Advantagesierce: 8Miller: 8Result: Tie in statsSo, we have a tie in stats, let's move on to the playofffs:Miller: During his 18 year illustrious carreer, Reggie Miller only missed the playoffs two timesPierce: During his 8 year career, Paul Pierce, has missed the playoffs five times alreadyAdvantage: MillerMore interesting stats that put Miller higher:Miller led the league twice in three-point field goals made (1992-93, 1996-97). He also led the league in free throw percentage five times, including his last season.Miller is the NBA's career leader in four-point plays with 24.The Pacers are 37-18 (.673) all-time when Miller missed a gameConclusion: Although Pierce has a better all-around game than Miller ever had, it was Miller's winning percentages/stats and playoff heroics that clearly make him a much better player than Paul Pierce
I'm not here to defend either, just saying you cannot, and I repeat cannot, compare two players on TEAM accomplishments. I've said it over and over again and will continue to. If so, Tom Brady is better than Dan Marino was, which is definately bull.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rodenbo @ Dec 26 2006, 01:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not here to defend either, just saying you cannot, and I repeat cannot, compare two players on TEAM accomplishments. I've said it over and over again and will continue to. If so, Tom Brady is better than Dan Marino was, which is definately bull.</div>so the big stages don't matter? the playoffs aren't important? winning doesn't matter? you are way off in your thinking there buddy.
The big stage does matter, but if you don't have a good team around you, you won't carry your team in this day in age. The player on the better team will have the advantage in "the big stage"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Dec 26 2006, 02:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Okay, this is going to be my only post in this thread (which means it probably won't be)Pierce (Career ): GP GS MPG FG% 3fg% FT% ORPG DRPG RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG629 627 37.8 .440 .360 .791 1.1 5.4 6.6 3.9 1.7 0.7 3.15 3.00 23.6Miller (Career) :GP GS MPG FG% 3FG% FT% ORPG DRPG RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG1389 1304 34.3 .471 .395 .888 .6 2.4 3.0 3.0 1.08 .20 1.73 2.0 18.2So, who has the advantage in each catagory?Games Played: Miller (760 more)Games Started: Miller (677 more)Minutes Per Game: Pierce (3.5 more per game)Field Goal Percentage: Miller (.31 higher percentage)3 Point Field Goal Percentage: Miller (.35 higher)Free Throw Percentage: Miller (0.097 higher) (Do you realize how many more games the celtics could've one if Pierce would hit one or two more free throws in a game?)Offensive Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (.5 per game higher)Defensive Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (3.0 per game higher)Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (3.6 higher)* I'm sure we can all agree that Pierce had much more athletiscm than Miller had, enabling him to rebound much easier. Milelr was a pretty good rebounder for his lack of athletiscm*Assist Per Game: Pierce (.9 higher)Steals Per Game: Pierce (.62 higher)Blocks Per Game: Pierce (.50 higher) (Once again, the athletiscm difference)Turnovers Per Game: Miller (1.42 less per game)Personal Fouls Per Game: Miller (1.0 less per game)Points Per Game: Tie (Miller had much higher scoring sidekicks, which means his scoring wouldn't be as high)Clutch: Miller (Obviously, Miller is first or second in the category depending on where you put Michael Jordan)Advantagesierce: 8Miller: 8Result: Tie in statsSo, we have a tie in stats, let's move on to the playofffs:Miller: During his 18 year illustrious carreer, Reggie Miller only missed the playoffs two timesPierce: During his 8 year career, Paul Pierce, has missed the playoffs five times alreadyAdvantage: MillerMore interesting stats that put Miller higher:Miller led the league twice in three-point field goals made (1992-93, 1996-97). He also led the league in free throw percentage five times, including his last season.Miller is the NBA's career leader in four-point plays with 24.The Pacers are 37-18 (.673) all-time when Miller missed a gameConclusion: Although Pierce has a better all-around game than Miller ever had, it was Miller's winning percentages/stats and playoff heroics that clearly make him a much better player than Paul Pierce</div>Your debate is entriely on statistics. That's just stupid. Pierce has the much more complete offensive game, and Miller was a terrible defender. Pierce is better on both ends of the court. It's no contest. LOL, what does Games Played have to does with who the better player is? Reggie Miller played like 18 seasons, and Pierce is still in his 20's. Paul Pierce shoots 80% from the free throw line, bud. That isn't a problem. What do you mean ppg is a tie? Pierce scores 27 ppg in his prime. I'm damn sure that Reggie's never topped 24...Pierce has been on crappy Celtic teams though. Pierce's best sidekick was Antoine Walker, and he was only a 20 ppg guy because he shot the ball so damn much. Playoff appearences do not make the better player, my friend. I'd like to know why your whole debate consists on stats. I don't give a damn about stats. Pierce is easily better on both ends of the court, and is the better player. No question asked.
You really are an idiot, your comments amaze me every time, Pacerfan.You're calling Pierce's 5+ PPG advantage a wash because of his sidekicks, haha. And you're making other excuses for other area's where Pierce completely dominates Miller. You also can't count playoff appearances because it has little to do with the two players we are debating and more to do with the supporting casts around him. Aside from Antoine Walker and Ricky Davis, name one great player Pierce has had to help him (haha Toine and Ricky aren't even that good anyways). Reggie had O'Neal, Artest, Harrington, Brad Miller, Jalen Rose, Rik Smits, Chris Mullin, Antonio Davis, and Detlef Schrempf among others. Even then, with no supporting cast, Paul has led them to the playoffs four times and conference finals once. So there is another null argument. Also Miller was int he top 10 in 3 pointers made and attempted every year nearly, but only top ten in percentage four times. Also you're using athleticism as an excuse for Pierce. Everyone in the NBA is a pretty decent athlete, the guys who are better athletes have just worked harder over their lives to get into the condition they're in. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Do you realize how many more games the celtics could've one if Pierce would hit one or two more free throws in a game?</div>Find me evidence of these games and I will believe you. Some of you're arguments hold true, but most of them are completely baseless and you contorting the stats and making excuses.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The Pacers are 37-18 (.673) all-time when Miller missed a game</div>Haha that also completely contradicted your entire post. You're trying to argue his value and you throw that nugget in there. Thanks bro.
Just another person that is using a team accomplishment to compare players. You cannot do that. I bring up my Tom Brady/Dan Marino point once again.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Dec 26 2006, 01:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>so the big stages don't matter? the playoffs aren't important? winning doesn't matter? you are way off in your thinking there buddy.</div>it's not like Reggie ever won a title.....
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Dec 26 2006, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Okay, this is going to be my only post in this thread (which means it probably won't be) Pierce (Career ): GP GS MPG FG% 3fg% FT% ORPG DRPG RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 629 627 37.8 .440 .360 .791 1.1 5.4 6.6 3.9 1.7 0.7 3.15 3.00 23.6 Miller (Career) : GP GS MPG FG% 3FG% FT% ORPG DRPG RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 1389 1304 34.3 .471 .395 .888 .6 2.4 3.0 3.0 1.08 .20 1.73 2.0 18.2 So, who has the advantage in each catagory? Games Played: Miller (760 more) Games Started: Miller (677 more) Minutes Per Game: Pierce (3.5 more per game) Field Goal Percentage: Miller (.31 higher percentage) 3 Point Field Goal Percentage: Miller (.35 higher) Free Throw Percentage: Miller (0.097 higher) (Do you realize how many more games the celtics could've one if Pierce would hit one or two more free throws in a game?) Offensive Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (.5 per game higher) Defensive Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (3.0 per game higher) Rebounds Per Game: Pierce (3.6 higher) * I'm sure we can all agree that Pierce had much more athletiscm than Miller had, enabling him to rebound much easier. Milelr was a pretty good rebounder for his lack of athletiscm* Assist Per Game: Pierce (.9 higher) Steals Per Game: Pierce (.62 higher) Blocks Per Game: Pierce (.50 higher) (Once again, the athletiscm difference) Turnovers Per Game: Miller (1.42 less per game) Personal Fouls Per Game: Miller (1.0 less per game) Points Per Game: Tie (Miller had much higher scoring sidekicks, which means his scoring wouldn't be as high) Clutch: Miller (Obviously, Miller is first or second in the category depending on where you put Michael Jordan) Advantages: Pierce: 8 Miller: 8 Result: Tie in stats So, we have a tie in stats, let's move on to the playofffs: Miller: During his 18 year illustrious carreer, Reggie Miller only missed the playoffs two times Pierce: During his 8 year career, Paul Pierce, has missed the playoffs five times already Advantage: Miller More interesting stats that put Miller higher: Miller led the league twice in three-point field goals made (1992-93, 1996-97). He also led the league in free throw percentage five times, including his last season. Miller is the NBA's career leader in four-point plays with 24. The Pacers are 37-18 (.673) all-time when Miller missed a game Conclusion: Although Pierce has a better all-around game than Miller ever had, it was Miller's winning percentages/stats and playoff heroics that clearly make him a much better player than Paul Pierce</div> First of all, I hate when people compare with stats. It's so stupid, stats are SO overrated, and to me it seems that the people that only use stats in arguments really don't know what they are talking about. If you need numbers to decide who is the better player, you don't know enough about the players to make a legit independent decision. But, let's go to your giant stat line post: 1. You are putting Millers' games played as an advantage over Pierce? Pierce is 29 years old, and he has only missed around 20 games in his career. What, because Miller was born before Pierce, you use that as an advantage? LMFAO. Pierce still has 6-7+ years in the NBA. 2. Again, you use games started as a statistical advantage? Again, Pierce is only 29 and he still has the second half of his career ahead of him. Besides, Pierce starts in every damn game, obviously, so that is irrelevant. The first two stats you used had to do with nothing more than AGE. 3. Fouls per game? GIVE ME A BREAK. 4. How come every time Pierce has a statistical advantage, you excuse Miller's flaw because "he wasn't as athletic as Pierce." Oh give me a break Pacers fan. Pierce isn't all that athletic to begin with, anyway. 5. Miller has been put around MUCH better teams than Pierce has. You want to talk clutch, and playoffs? OK cool. Pierce led a team with a supporting cast of Antoine Walker, Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Tony Delk, Kenny Anderson, Erick Strickland, and Walter McCarty to the Eastern Conference Finals. In game 3 of that series (vs. New Jersey), the Celtics were down by 21 points at the end of the 3rd. Pierce rallied the C's, scored 18 points in that 4th quarter, and the Celtics won that game. You even said it yourself: Pierce has the much better all-around game that Miller never had. Boom, end it there. Paul Pierce is the must better and more versatile player of the two, Reggie may have been more clutch but, Pierce is clutch as well. Miller may have gone further in the playoffs, more times, but Pierce has gone to game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals as well (with a terrible supporting cast), and the teams he has been on havn't been championship caliber. That's not his fault. Pierce is the type of guy that you can give the ball, clear out, and say "get us a bucket." Miller needed screens, he needed to push people to get free, he needed to come off curls, etc. Pierce can take any player in the league to the bucket from the top of the key with no help at all. He's that gifted, Miller was NEVER that caliber of a player. Pierce is a guy that can carry your team and do just about everything. Miller didn't have a very good all-around game at all. Take away Millers' shot, you have nothing. Take away one of Pierce's best attributes, he can still do a ton of damage in many other ways.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Dec 26 2006, 02:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First of all, I hate when people compare with stats. It's so stupid, stats are SO overrated, and to me it seems that the people that only use stats in arguments really don't know what they are talking about. If you need numbers to decide who is the better player, you don't know enough about the players to make a legit independent decision. But, let's go to your giant stat line post:1. You are putting Millers' games played as an advantage over Pierce? Pierce is 29 years old, and he has only missed around 20 games in his career. What, because Miller was born before Pierce, you use that as an advantage? LMFAO. Pierce still has 6-7+ years in the NBA.2. Again, you use games started as a statistical advantage? Again, Pierce is only 29 and he still has the second half of his career ahead of him. Besides, Pierce starts in every damn game, obviously, so that is irrelevant. The first two stats you used had to do with nothing more than AGE.3. Fouls per game? GIVE ME A BREAK.4. How come every time Pierce has a statistical advantage, you excuse Miller's flaw because "he wasn't as athletic as Pierce." Oh give me a break Pacers fan. Pierce isn't all that athletic to begin with, anyway.5. Miller has been put around MUCH better teams than Pierce has. You want to talk clutch, and playoffs? OK cool. Pierce led a team with a supporting cast of Antoine Walker, Eric Williams, Tony Battie, Tony Delk, Kenny Anderson, Erick Strickland, and Walter McCarty to the Eastern Conference Finals. In game 3 of that series (vs. New Jersey), the Celtics were down by 21 points at the end of the 3rd. Pierce rallied the C's, scored 18 points in that 4th quarter, and the Celtics won that game.You even said it yourself: Pierce has the much better all-around game that Miller never had. Boom, end it there. Paul Pierce is the must better and more versatile player of the two, Reggie may have been more clutch but, Pierce is clutch as well. Miller may have gone further in the playoffs, more times, but Pierce has gone to game 6 of the Eastern Conference Finals as well (with a terrible supporting cast), and the teams he has been on havn't been championship caliber. That's not his fault.Pierce is the type of guy that you can give the ball, clear out, and say "get us a bucket." Miller needed screens, he needed to push people to get free, he needed to come off curls, etc. Pierce can take any player in the league to the bucket from the top of the key with no help at all. He's that gifted, Miller was NEVER that caliber of a player. Pierce is a guy that can carry your team and do just about everything. Miller didn't have a very good all-around game at all.Take away Millers' shot, you have nothing. Take away one of Pierce's best attributes, he can still do a ton of damage in many other ways.</div>Do you relize even though I said reggie had less athleticsm, I still gave pierce the point?Miller was so much better.Pierce may play 14 seasons at the most, reggie played 18pierce will never score 25,000 pointsmissed free throws kill every team, look at every game decided by 4 points or less, if someone had made free throws that they missed, the result may have been differentyou guys are trying to put someone who may be top 100 ever in the place of someone who's top 50 evershut up, pay respect to history ,adn reconize a legend
Yes Reggie is a legend but Peirce is a better player. There should be nmo further argment. If the question is who is better then Peirce gets the nod. Now if the question was who is the better winner? the better clutch performer?? most likely to go to the hall? the Its reggie, but the question being asked here I'm sorry pacerfan but reggie is not a better allround player than Peirce.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clangus @ Dec 26 2006, 04:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes Reggie is a ledgend but Peirce is a better player. There should be nmo further argment. If the question is who is better then Peirce gets the nod. Now if the question was who is the better winner? the better clutch performer?? most likely to go to the hall? the Its reggie, but the question being asked here I'm sorry pacerfan but reggie is not a better allround player than Peirce.</div>the player is not solely judged by hiself. the player is also judged by team. if you were o judge using hese two (which is how to find the best player) reggie fits in both.
