what you people think i think he is a bad player for the sonics 1. Murray was a better starter than Allen he hit the Game winning shot against T'wolwes you people remember that 2. Ray Allen Messed up the Sonics Chemestry when he came back 3. He tries to do it all sometimes which is not good for any player or team his 3 pointers wont be falling every night 4. He becomes a shadow For Rashard Lewis who in my opinion could be an all-star Tell me now people arent all these facts true about Ray
1.-Murray was good for the first few months untill teams started to fiqure him out and how to guard him. When he finally got the attention his play dropped off and refused to play defense on the other end. To say he is a better starter than Allen is quite laughable. Murray had to prove he could keep his numbers up and he didn't, Allen has proved to keep his numbers very consistant every game. 2- I don't see how the Sonics chemistry was messed up, they needed him back to compete. He is a franchise player and the offense is built around him as the go to guy. It's also not like he really struggled , he put up the numbers and helped his team in many other areas. 3-trys to do it all? He doesn't shoot enough sometimes. He is a good passer and from what I saw he tried to get his team-mates involved first. When you have an inconsistant Rashard Lewis and a young Flip Murray as your main scoring options It's hard to get instant success. You also forget Brent Barry was out for a long period of time. 4-Rashard Lewis could be an all-star, he has the talent but is not consistant enough. I fail to see how thats Ray's fault. Lewis too many times this year would have a 33 point game and follow it up with a 7 point game. He has all the tools but just doesn't seem to have the drive or the will to work everynight. Nothing to do with Ray Allen there. So to answer your question, no Ray Allen has not been a bust as you put it. He has been a success for that franchise. Their management just needs to get his a post player to feed off from.
This team is not built around Ray Allen. It was built for the old Gary Payton, and in most ways, still mantains that type of roster. Right now Ray is an elite player, but not a franchise player. It wouldn't be advisable to build a team around somebody with his leadership skills, or lack thereof, because he'll score 25 points a game but won't make any of his teammates better. He needs the ball in his hands too much for a non-franchise player, but it's obvious at times that the reason he shoots so much is because he's the only one on the floor for the Sonics who can create offense. Whatever his flaws are, his style of play doesn't fit in the Sonics system, so he needs to be traded.
I think it's fair to say that Ray Allen's chances of staying in Seattle just got a lot higher after this draft. I was expecting us to pick Snyder and look to deal Ray for a big man, but the pick of Swift, plus Collison coming into the team, I think means it's either Rashard or Vlad that goes. Unless of course it's for another guard, like in the Stevie Francis scenario. Oh, and Bosnian, what are you smoking?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This team is not built around Ray Allen. It was built for the old Gary Payton, and in most ways, still mantains that type of roster. He needs the ball in his hands too much for a non-franchise player, but it's obvious at times that the reason he shoots so much is because he's the only one on the floor for the Sonics who can create offense. Whatever his flaws are, his style of play doesn't fit in the Sonics system, so he needs to be traded.</div> The players may of been built around Gary Payton but their team is firmly Ray Allen's now and is the go to guy on offense. Most franchise players need the ball in their hands 90% of the time, otherwise they aren't known factors. And again I fail to see how he shoots too much. Most of the time he is looking to pass first then shoot. His style of play of shooting the ball and getting out on the break doesn't fit the Sonics system? how you fiqure that out? thats exactly how the Sonics like to play. They have no other choice considering they have no real big man in the middle to pound the ball inside to. If you gave Paul Pierce the Sonics roster of last year would he of done much better? I can't honestly say that he would.
Ray looks to pass first? Were you watching most of last season's games? He would jack up plenty of ridiculous shots when the Sonics were making a run because he wanted to hit the big shot that turned things around, instead of running the offense. His style of play does fit the Sonics, if you consider fitting to mean he's exactly like half of the players on the roster in his style of play. I don't see how a franchise player should need the ball 90% of the time, unless you were exaggerating on purpose. A franchise player makes everybody on his team better. Yeah, I'm saying Paul Pierce would have done much better in place of Ray. He does three things way, way better. He plays defense, he posts up, and he leads the team, three things the Sonics sorely lacked this past season.
From the games I saw and I saw plenty he did look for his team-mates but he did launch alot of threes but when you are shooting 40% from downtown It's hardly a surprise. thats his game. He averaged 5 assists per game this year, you don't put up those numbers without looking for your team-mates. Most franchise players need the ball in their hands to do something with it yes, thats mainly guards. Big man are totally different of course but the fair share of star guards need the ball in their hands. Franchise players make players around them better? hmm...many experts say thats one thing Kobe Bryant does not do. So by that logic is he not a franchise player? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, I'm saying Paul Pierce would have done much better in place of Ray. He does three things way, way better. He plays defense, he posts up, and he leads the team, three things the Sonics sorely lacked this past season.</div> The only thing Pierce does alot better is rebound the basketball, Paul's level of play has dipped quite a bit from the last couple of years ago. His shooting % are down as is his scoring. Pierce is a very average defender just like Allen is. There is no difference in that area at all. Pierce leads his team so much he manages to lead them to 30-35 wins in the east? Thats hardly impressive. Yet he would somehow take the Sonics to the playoffs in the tough west? very unlikely.
I agree with AllNet. Paul Pierce and Ray Allen are in much the same situation, a scoring and running team with not much in the middle and where they are the star, and considering that the Sonics had a better record than the Celtics while playing in the much more challenging Western Conference, I, too, doubt that Pierce would have done any better than Allen.
Ray Allen is not one of my favorite players (to be honest he might be the player/person on the Sonics I like the least, toss up w/ Reggie Evans) but he can definitely play. I just think he isn't worth the money or the cloudt that he currently holds w/ the Sonics. I do not think that Ray is a winner, bottom line. He worries too much about things that he does not have any control of. He seems more concerned about these issues of control than he does about winning games. I have never heard him say anything positive about Ronald Murray after he became a threat to him nor have I seen him take any responsibility for the problems that ail the Sonics (he normally is quick to put the blame on others) Flip Murray did not disappear when Ray came back, his minutes were drastically reduced. He generally was still productive in the minutes that he played, but I don't know too many people who can put up all star numbers in one quarters worth of action. Down the stretch of the season he actually played as well as he did in the first month of the year, but the Sonics were theoretically out of playoff contention so it went unnoticed. I think that Flip's demeanor and his play was well received by coaches and management. Not once did I hear anything negative about him from management or from Nate McMillian in any of the post season remarks. I think that his efforts during the season was also instrumental in them picking up David Young from North Carolina Central University (NCAA II). Tough minded players who are not discouraged easily seems to be very appealing to the Sonics management right now. Acquiring shooting guard depth could mean that Ray is out of the door. If he can bring in a power forward, I'm all for that. If/when that happens the Flip vs Ray debate will not be as one sided as the masses seem to believe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">I have never heard him say anything positive about Ronald Murray after he became a threat to him nor have I seen him take any responsibility for the problems that ail the Sonics (he normally is quick to put the blame on others)</div>I'm just curious when he is quick to blame.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Fletcher:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm just curious when he is quick to blame. </div> Go to the either the Seattle Times, Post Intelliger (sp), or Tacoma Sports newspaper archive section and you will see when Ray complained about the Sonics travel, Ronald Murray's shot selection, Brent Barry contract negotiations, Vladimir Radmonovic inability to play the post, the direction of the franchise, and his future w/ the Sonics to name a few. I'm probably forgetting something but if you go through the archives I'm sure you can remind me. I forgot, Jerome James work ethic. That was one of the few valid complaints (that needed to be addressed through the media) that he had. You aren't the leading vote getter on the All Interview team if you are withholding information.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">From the games I saw and I saw plenty he did look for his team-mates but he did launch alot of threes but when you are shooting 40% from downtown It's hardly a surprise. thats his game. He averaged 5 assists per game this year, you don't put up those numbers without looking for your team-mates.</div> I didn't say he didn't look for his teammates, I said it wasn't his first priority like you suggested. With the amount he has the ball in his hands, it's hardly a surprise that he ends up with that many assists, anyway. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">Most franchise players need the ball in their hands to do something with it yes, thats mainly guards. Big man are totally different of course but the fair share of star guards need the ball in their hands. Franchise players make players around them better? hmm...many experts say thats one thing Kobe Bryant does not do. So by that logic is he not a franchise player? </div> That's a good point. Of course, Kobe hasn't played without Shaq, so we can't tell if he's a true franchise player or not. What I'm talking about is the same reason Tracy McGrady does nothing in Orlando. Ray Allen does virtually nothing to help his teammates. He's a great guy, but a poor leader on the floor and in the locker room. Of course some of it is a product of the system, but you can look at other superstars who have more success even though they're surrounding by the same amount of talent. True franchise players are very rare. Scoring 25 points a game is great, but pointless if the team doesn't win. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">The only thing Pierce does alot better is rebound the basketball, Paul's level of play has dipped quite a bit from the last couple of years ago. His shooting % are down as is his scoring. Pierce is a very average defender just like Allen is. There is no difference in that area at all. Pierce leads his team so much he manages to lead them to 30-35 wins in the east? Thats hardly impressive. Yet he would somehow take the Sonics to the playoffs in the tough west? very unlikely.</div> I'm not even going to get into the defense argument, that's all opinion. Pierce had even less talent around him last year than Seattle, and even less team chemistry, if that's possible. That's not why coming here would improve the Sonics's record, though. It's because Pierce provides a lot more than just rebounding. Shooting? That's great for Jesus, but I think the Sonics have enough shooters to live without him. Pierce would drive to the lane a lot more than Ray and post up a lot more than Ray giving more open shots to the likes of Barry and Lewis. He can excel in both half-court and fast break situations, something the Sonics struggle with. He would also lead the team, because he steps up in his game not only making clutch shots, but rallying the troops (although this past season wasn't exactly his greatest example of that).
yeah Ray talks a lot, it doesn't reach national level but anyone in Washington knows how it is, really. To be honest though, I don't blame him. I LOVE Flip, but there's no denying he faded after his amazing start.. What I would like to know is whether or not Ray actually tells his teammates that to their face, or if he saves it all for the reporters.. I mean when star players call out their teammates it can be a form of leadership, right? I'd really hate to put the blame on a guy who really did play a pretty spectacular season (which is more than can be said for any other Sonic).. He's basically been given on a talent level, a poor man's Dallas.. And as far as his position on the team I can't help but feel he's the Paul Pierce of the west.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">I'd really hate to put the blame on a guy who really did play a pretty spectacular season (which is more than can be said for any other Sonic).. He's basically been given on a talent level, a poor man's Dallas.. And as far as his position on the team I can't help but feel he's the Paul Pierce of the west.</div> This is very true - Ray doesn't have a lot to work with, particularly a big man, which is suicide in the West. However the way he goes about things still leaves a bit to be desired. Even if you're playing with a bunch of CBA castoffs, as the face of a team you should still be conducting yourself in a respectable manner. I'm not going to say Ray isn't a leader, because he is at times, but not in the way you want from your so-called franchise player. It's no secret as to why we need Brent Barry back so badly.
Hm, I'm not so sure about that either.. As far as NBA 'superstars' go, Ray is one of the better ones in terms of how he carries himself.. Especially on the court, where it really counts.. That he isnt an emotional leader is something that IMO he can't really be faulted for. Especially considering he did play well and had more to do with the Sonics' wins than arguably any other player on the team.. Are his interview comments all that relevant? What does it matter what he says if his play doesn't reflect it..? It's very hard to classify Ray as a winner or loser when his supporting cast is so subpar.. I'm all for a change in the roster, and I feel that Ray is unfortunately our only significant trade asset.. If there were a way to bring someone new in without letting go of him I'd like that even more though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting tradebark:</div><div class="quote_post">Hm, I'm not so sure about that either.. As far as NBA 'superstars' go, Ray is one of the better ones in terms of how he carries himself.. Especially on the court, where it really counts.. That he isnt an emotional leader is something that IMO he can't really be faulted for. Especially considering he did play well and had more to do with the Sonics' wins than arguably any other player on the team.. Are his interview comments all that relevant? What does it matter what he says if his play doesn't reflect it..? It's very hard to classify Ray as a winner or loser when his supporting cast is so subpar.</div> I have no problem with Ray's conduct on the court, apart from taking a few rash shots. I have no doubts he gives his all for the team, and there is bo doubting that he has made a big difference to the team. Unfortunately, it's hard to build your team around a shooting guard unless his name is Kobe or Tracy, particularly one who demands the ball as much as Ray. You can't fault him because he is a hell of a player, but when your supporting cast is made up of young players who aren't going to be reaching their promise for at least 2-3 seasons, it's tough to have your go to guy as a 28 year old shooting guard. It's not Ray's fault, it's just not ideal. As for interview comments, they're fine, it's just sometimes he goes over the top in what he says. He didn't do any favours when he mouthed off about Bruce Bowen, and it doesn't reflect well on the team when you have your franchise face mouthing off a bit about the team's own staff.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course some of it is a product of the system, but you can look at other superstars who have more success even though they're surrounding by the same amount of talent. True franchise players are very rare. Scoring 25 points a game is great, but pointless if the team doesn't win. </div> It's very rare in this league where you will find guys who will make their team-mates better. Infact I can only name 3 guys who do that. Tim Duncan Kevin Garnett Jason Kidd Doesn't mean these other top players aren't franchise players. Every star needs talent around him to be successful. Guys like Tracy Mcgrady needs help to win, so does Ray Allen along with Paul Pierce e.t.c Franchise players are all about putting up all-round numbers and helping your team win as much as possible. Lets face it, the Sonics roster is so bad in the frontcourt the wins they get in the mighty west who all have strong bigmen should be taken into acount. Tracy Mcgrady is set to play with Yao Ming, a big man who he can go to inside. Not many of the players have gotten that chance. Not everyone can live in the Kobe world. I had hoped Ray would be given a strong inside presents to go to and see how good he really can be. You and I both know he can't win a title with him as the main guy. Infact I don't think any guards can. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I'm not even going to get into the defense argument, that's all opinion. Pierce had even less talent around him last year than Seattle, and even less team chemistry, if that's possible. That's not why coming here would improve the Sonics's record, though. It's because Pierce provides a lot more than just rebounding. Shooting? That's great for Jesus, but I think the Sonics have enough shooters to live without him. Pierce would drive to the lane a lot more than Ray and post up a lot more than Ray giving more open shots to the likes of Barry and Lewis. He can excel in both half-court and fast break situations, something the Sonics struggle with. He would also lead the team, because he steps up in his game not only making clutch shots, but rallying the troops (although this past season wasn't exactly his greatest example of that).</div> He may of had less talent but his team had many faults like Seattle did. You also need to take into account the fact of the different conferences. His team only gets to face the west teams twice while the Sonics play all the west giants 4 times. Pierce has proven to be very good at attacking the basket and he does get to the line consistantly. That as you said could draw the defense but that alone wouldn't be enough to make Seattle that much better of a basketball team. Pierce has never seemed to me as much of a leader, Antonie Walker was there leader in Boston. He was the guy that got everyone fired up and ready to go. His leadership skills aren't any different to Ray Allen's in my opinion. Both need work in that department. The paul Pierce of say 2-3 years ago I would consider agreeing with what you have stated but PP often gave up on his team this year when the tough got bad in mid-season. He was un-happy with the front office and It showed in his game. He jump shot has gotten so inconsistant you don't know If he's going to shoot 12-21 or 5-22. I honestly don't see how Pierce would of improved the Sonics that much or at all. Infact the only way the Sonics team would of done much better was to have a big man in the middle. Swapping guards who are very on the same standard would't of changed the Sonics fortunes.
I don't think anyone is doubting Ray Allen as a player. It's just a question of whether or not he is the ideal guy to have as the leader of this team, and I think the answer to that is no. Whether Pierce would be is a different matter, or Steve Francis, but for now we don't know. It's all guesswork and speculation.
You people are missing the main point here Payton had led sonics to the playoffs in like all his seasons here in seattle i think how many times has Ray done that
Gary Payton also had guys like Shawn Kemp around him. The last few years in the GP tenure were the same kind of years we're having with Ray because of the lack of talent around our star.
