Does anyone really understand why Shaq received three consecutive Finals MVP awards? Here's what I don't understand...and notice the centers and shooting guards for the East teams: 2002 NBA Finals (Lakers/Nets) - Starting 5 for both teams C - Shaquille O'Neal/<font color="Red">Todd MacCulloch</font> PF - Robert Horry/Kenyon Martin SF - Rick Fox/Keith Van Horn SG - Kobe Bryant/<font color="Blue">Jason Kidd</font> PG - Derek Fisher/Kerry Kittles 2001 NBA Finals (Lakers/Sixers) C - Shaquille O'Neal/<font color="Red">Dikembe Mutombo</font> PF - Horace Grant/Tyrone Hill SF - Rick Fox/Jumaine Jones SG - Kobe Bryant/<font color="Blue">Allen Iverson</font> PG - Derek Fisher/Aaron McKie 2000 NBA Finals (Lakers/Pacers) C - Shaquille O'Neal/<font color="Red">Rik Smits</font> PF - AC Green/Dale Davis SF - Glen Rice/Jalen Rose SG - Kobe Bryant/<font color="Blue">Reggie Miller</font> PG - Ron Harper/Mark Jackson Now...you can't tell me that Shaq worked for those Finals MVP trophies. Kobe Bryant had a helluva time in all three years of the Finals...each team he played, he guarded their main threats...Reggie Miller (who was putting in 30+ points in the playoffs and was still a great player in 2000), Allen Iverson (led every game in scoring for the Sixers...probably all 82 of the season, also), and Jason Kidd (yes, Kittles ran the point...Kobe was on Kidd, even when Kidd brought the ball down and directed traffic). On the other hand, Shaq's only test was Dikembe Mutombo, who was already past his prime anyways. Todd MacCulloch??? Rik Smits??? Come on David Stern...no wonder why Kobe walked out on the last MVP presentation for Shaq. My point is this: the Lakers could've put any decent center in his place and still won. Kobe was the one who held off onslaughts from Iverson, Miller and Kidd...because Iverson can score 50 on any given day against someone like Rick Fox. Shaq's performance was spectacular, but who is more of a hero...the guy who pulls you out of a blazing house, or the neighbor who called 911? Shaq was there for security, while Kobe did all the dirty work. That's exactly what happened. BTW - Shaq and Kobe both put the Lakers in the Finals...that's why Shaq received the actual MVP for the season...but I'm talking about the Finals MVP awards, where Kobe earned at least one, possibly two. For everyone that makes the excuses that Shaq led them to the championship all three times, and when they say that the proof is there because of his Finals MVP awards, remember who he had to score and pull rebounds against...
I think it is because without Shaq, the Lakers wouldnt of gotten that far, and even if Shaq didnt dominate in those finals I think we would of lost 2/3
Shaq earned them. He dominated the paint, help control the tempo, and played defense. The 3 finals MVP's he earn straight up. Why even argue it? Dont dwell in the past, lets move on and look at the Lakers Future...
My point is this: the Lakers could've put any decent center in his place and still won. Kobe was the one who held off onslaughts from Iverson, Miller and Kidd...because Iverson can score 50 on any given day against someone like Rick Fox. Shaq's performance was spectacular, but who is more of a hero...the guy who pulls you out of a blazing house, or the neighbor who called 911? Shaq was there for security, while Kobe did all the dirty work. That's exactly what happened. BTW - Shaq and Kobe both put the Lakers in the Finals...that's why Shaq received the actual MVP for the season...but I'm talking about the Finals MVP awards, where Kobe earned at least one, possibly two. EDIT: I posted this in my main post too, just in case someone reads it and skips all the other posts and asks the same thing all over again.
Again, your missing the point. Shaq controlled the tempo of the game. Yes, Kobe made the terrific stops and played great defense, but Shaq totally dominated the game itself. Not just a player. He made the opposing team change their shots, made them double team, slowed the game down with his post game, etc... He controls games. He dictates what goes on, on the floor. Most Valuable Player. Who was "The Most Valuable" person to the Lakers. It was Shaq. It has nothing to do with his matchups. His match ups were sh*t to him. He could walk all over centers like that. It was what he did for the overall game. Thats why he earned MVP in the Finals 3 times. The Lakers may have won with just Kobe, but it would have been alot tougher without Shaq. Thats a Guarantee. Remember this is coming from a Kobe fan. Im a huge Kobe fan man. But I know where the credit is due. Kobe was #2. Shaq was the Man. Bottom Line.
He slowed the game down...meaning he slowed down Kobe Bryant also. Everyone says Kobe is selfish...I don't think so. Maybe this past year because he was sick of the way Shaq plays. Also, Shaq was double-teamed by, once again, guys that really didn't make a difference. Look at the PF's...Martin was the only decent one, but he wasn't even developed back then. Kobe created his own shots...against who was back then three of the top guards in the NBA...two are still great. You can't tell me that Shaq attracted the SG's...all of that is a bunch of BS. If anything, Kobe was penetrating the defense and tossing short passes in the paint to a wide-open Shaq...so I'm not giving credit to O'Neal for having his Finals MVPs handed to him on a silver platter. And, the team didn't change their shots for Shaq...because I can guarantee they all took jumpers and threes, with the talent they had. They wouldn't want to throw it inside the paint to their centers, even if the Lakers center was Shawn Bradley at the time, because their centers can't even score left wide open (except for Mutombo). Shaq getting MVP was based on his scoring...against losers...and his rebounds against, yes, losers. Congratulations, Shaq. Your incredible leadership and domination destroyed three guys that can't even average a fourth of what you score per game. *applause* Kobe could never be the MVP, even if (and he did) throw in 20-25 PPG against All-Star guards...but, oh yeah...whoever has the most points is the MVP. :thumbsdow
yo, im no longer gonna argue this. My points are posted already. You wanted to know why Shaq got 3 awards. I told ya. But of course, your going to come up with something else to say. There is no reason to continue... Shaq= Forces Teams to take jumpers (SHot percentages go down for opposing team) Shaq= controls the Tempo (takes teams out of their rhythm) Shaq= Forces Double and Triple Teams (opens up fisher, Kobe etc. for better looks) Shaq= Grabs Offensive and Defensive Rebounds Shaq= Controls the entire Paint Shaq= Leads the team in BPG Shaq= MVP simple....... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't tell me that Shaq attracted the SG's...all of that is a bunch of BS.</div> Why would he attract SG's? haha. That doesn't make sense. He does force them to take jumpers instead of driving the lane. Jumper's=Lower FG's I good SG has to be able to penetrate. If you shoot outside all night, your gonna lose. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">the team didn't change their shots for Shaq...because I can guarantee they all took jumpers and threes, with the talent they had</div> What are you kidding me? Didnt change their shots? they were forced to shoot jumpers. High percentage shots are taken in the paint, not outside the paint. I dont care how good a player you want, you shoot outside all night and you LOSE!
Um...Tyronn Lue did a better job on Iverson than Kobe. Kid is more of a passer and leader than a shooter anyway so it's not like Kobe was containing a true scorer. And you can't tell me (without lying) that Reggie Miller was nearly as good/athletic as Kobe at the time. Here's what happens without Shaq: Kobe gets double teamed, Kobe can't get off a clear shot, and Kobe's already tired from chasing around people on defense. Plus, rebounds are dirty work, too, so Shaq did his part. Not to mention how oftenly Shaq gets hacked every game...
Kobe's playoff minutes in 2001... GM 1 - 52 min GM 2 - 47 min GM 3 - 48 min GM 4 - 43 min GM 5 - 44 min When did Lue get to guard Iverson??? Lue came in for Fisher most of the time, but when he did come in for Kobe (in one game for about 5 minutes), Iverson dropped him...go check out the video clip, it's famous. lol...Lue was called the AI Stopper just like Ruben Patterson was proclaimed the Kobe Stopper...until Kobe hit shots in his eye when game-time came around.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lakerland:</div><div class="quote_post">Um...Tyronn Lue did a better job on Iverson than Kobe. Kid is more of a passer and leader than a shooter anyway so it's not like Kobe was containing a true scorer. And you can't tell me (without lying) that Reggie Miller was nearly as good/athletic as Kobe at the time. Here's what happens without Shaq: Kobe gets double teamed, Kobe can't get off a clear shot, and Kobe's already tired from chasing around people on defense. Plus, rebounds are dirty work, too, so Shaq did his part. Not to mention how oftenly Shaq gets hacked every game...</div> By the way, without Shaq...there would be no triangle offense, meaning George and especially Malone would've had an easier time setting single and double screens for Kobe. Shaq gets credit for putting the team atop the West, along with Kobe...but don't give Shaq that much credit. Kobe either creates his shot, or runs off screens to the basket or for open jumpers...not because Shaq sits in the paint all game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post">Does anyone really understand why Shaq received three consecutive Finals MVP awards? Here's what I don't understand...and notice the centers and shooting guards for the East teams: 2002 NBA Finals (Lakers/Nets) - Starting 5 for both teams C - Shaquille O'Neal/<font color="Red">Todd MacCulloch</font> PF - Robert Horry/Kenyon Martin SF - Rick Fox/Keith Van Horn SG - Kobe Bryant/<font color="Blue">Jason Kidd</font> PG - Derek Fisher/Kerry Kittles 2001 NBA Finals (Lakers/Sixers) C - Shaquille O'Neal/<font color="Red">Dikembe Mutombo</font> PF - Horace Grant/Tyrone Hill SF - Rick Fox/Jumaine Jones SG - Kobe Bryant/<font color="Blue">Allen Iverson</font> PG - Derek Fisher/Aaron McKie 2000 NBA Finals (Lakers/Pacers) C - Shaquille O'Neal/<font color="Red">Rik Smits</font> PF - AC Green/Dale Davis SF - Glen Rice/Jalen Rose SG - Kobe Bryant/<font color="Blue">Reggie Miller</font> PG - Ron Harper/Mark Jackson Now...you can't tell me that Shaq worked for those Finals MVP trophies. Kobe Bryant had a helluva time in all three years of the Finals...each team he played, he guarded their main threats...Reggie Miller (who was putting in 30+ points in the playoffs and was still a great player in 2000), Allen Iverson (led every game in scoring for the Sixers...probably all 82 of the season, also), and Jason Kidd (yes, Kittles ran the point...Kobe was on Kidd, even when Kidd brought the ball down and directed traffic). On the other hand, Shaq's only test was Dikembe Mutombo, who was already past his prime anyways. Todd MacCulloch??? Rik Smits??? Come on David Stern...no wonder why Kobe walked out on the last MVP presentation for Shaq. My point is this: the Lakers could've put any decent center in his place and still won. Kobe was the one who held off onslaughts from Iverson, Miller and Kidd...because Iverson can score 50 on any given day against someone like Rick Fox. Shaq's performance was spectacular, but who is more of a hero...the guy who pulls you out of a blazing house, or the neighbor who called 911? Shaq was there for security, while Kobe did all the dirty work. That's exactly what happened. BTW - Shaq and Kobe both put the Lakers in the Finals...that's why Shaq received the actual MVP for the season...but I'm talking about the Finals MVP awards, where Kobe earned at least one, possibly two. For everyone that makes the excuses that Shaq led them to the championship all three times, and when they say that the proof is there because of his Finals MVP awards, remember who he had to score and pull rebounds against... </div> <font color="Red">NO PERSONAL ATTACKS</font>. Jason Kidd is a PG not a SG and he played PG that series. Alos Dikembe Mutombo was Defensive player of the year. Don't give me this crap bout Shaq did nothing to the lakers success. To Trench Team: I respecct you for being a Kobe fan and still agree to say Shaq was the reason they won those 3 titles.
You can't have an opinion around here without talking sh*t on you, and saying comments like, "Stop sucking Kobe's nutz" and childish things like that. It's ok though...I express my opinions in a mature manner, but all you guys do is talk trash.
Nice analysis realdealbneal. You make a lot of good points, unpopular ones for sure. Out of the 3 finals, I think Kobe should have been the MVP of the Pacer series. He dominated the 4th quarter in every game, and made key shots time and time again. Shaq was the MVP in the other two championships, because he forced the opponent to completely change their defensive schemes. He was unstoppable against the 76ers and Nets, and did what ever he wanted on the court. I wish he played with the same intensity the last two seasons. Unfornately for Kobe, his best series came in the first of three titles, so it put, too much pressure on the voters to not select Shaq. I think if the Pacer series came second or third, Kobe would have stood a chance of having a Finals MVP award, he certainly earned it.
Thank you. Even since it was my opinion, at least someone noticed, someone that doesn't come in here and explicitly tell me I'm sucking up to Kobe. My point was that Kobe didn't get any recognition, and now everyone is saying he can't do it without Shaq. Well, I would've liked to seen Shaq do it by himself, also...just to see how many times he can throw Iverson's layup, or stop a driving Jason Kidd in HIS paint. Sure, he did play great...but for some reason, I really don't think it would've been that easy for Shaq if Duncan was an actual center, and also Garnett...but these guys aren't. The only true center in the West with talent is Yao right now...I may be missing out on someone...Magloire is good, Dampier was good for one season...but Yao is the only guy I can think of that can play Shaq by himself and not get murdered like a Todd MacCulloch or Rik Smits. If the shooting guards were rookies or starting "role players"...it would be different. Kobe would've scored 40 every other game too, correct? Shaq did the same...but I wonder if Kobe would've gotten an MVP. Possibly. But, even with Iverson and the others, he was putting in 20 and 25...which isn't bad...the average scoring champ puts in about 28 or so. If you can average almost that much against great guards, you should be MVP in my opinion. That's pretty much all I was trying to get across.
When did it become a bad thing to outscore your opponent? You are saying that because shaq is BETTER than those guys he cant win the award? There is a reason they are no match for shaq. BECAUSE THEY ARE NO MATCH FOR HIM. Your point seems to be that he outscored them but you think their should be an asterisk by it? Who was guarding Kobe AI, Kidd, Miller, Mckie a real group of defensive warriors, Just look at what Kobe did with the pistons this finals he shot like 30%. Any Laker fan who tries to knock shaq is not a laker fan they are a dumbass.
ShapeCity, I can see your arguement on the Pacers series. Kobe did play great and I think that Shaq and Kobe should have been co-MVP's. But if Kobe won it, I would have said he deserved it too.. I dont think the Big Guy would have argued it either.... I just cant say the Shaq didnt deseve any of them. He was the Heart of the Lakers Championship Teams. Now, Kobe has that honor, and I know he's going to do a good job.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting realdealbneal:</div><div class="quote_post"> When did Lue get to guard Iverson??? Lue came in for Fisher most of the time, but when he did come in for Kobe (in one game for about 5 minutes), Iverson dropped him...go check out the video clip, it's famous. lol...Lue was called the AI Stopper just like Ruben Patterson was proclaimed the Kobe Stopper...until Kobe hit shots in his eye when game-time came around.</div> Lue actually did a great job on Iverson that series...AI went nuts in game 1, but Lue neutralized him the rest of the series... In the regular season, Kobe shut down AI (i believe he went 0-15 in the 2nd half against Kobe)...but once the finals came around, Kobe (along with the other lakers) had trouble defending AI... However, it's worth pointing out that Eric Snow (a very good defenisve player) defended Kobe...Kobe has gone on record and said that Eric Snow (for one reason or another) does the best job of defending him...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> 2000 NBA Finals (Lakers/Pacers) C - Shaquille O'Neal/Rik Smits PF - AC Green/Dale Davis SF - Glen Rice/Jalen Rose SG - Kobe Bryant/Reggie Miller PG - Ron Harper/Mark Jackson</div> Game 1: Reggie Miller, 7 points (1-16), 2 reb, 4 assts | Kobe 14 points (6-13), 3 reb, 5 assts Shaq 43 points (21-31) and 19 rebounds Game 2: Reggie Miller 21 points (7-16), 2 reb, 4 assts | Kobe 2 points (1-3), 9 minutes Shaq 40 points (11-18) and 24 rebounds Game 3: Reggie Miller 33 points (11-22), 2 reb, 2 assts | Kobe DNP Shaq 33 points (15-24), 13 rebounds Game 4: Reggie Miller 35 points (12-18), 6 reb, 5 assts | Kobe 28 points (14-27), 4 red, 5 assts Shaq 36 points (13-25), 21 rebounds Game 5: Reggie Miller 25 pts (7-12) - 4 reb - 6 assts | Kobe 8 pts - 5 reb - 3 asss (4-20) Shaq 35 points (17-27), 11 rebounds Game 6: Reggie Miller 25 points (8-19), 1 reb, 3 assts | Kobe 26 points(8-27 FG), 10 reb, 4 assts Shaq 41 points (19-32), 12 rebounds. That's a summary of the gamelog in the Pacer series. Shaq averaged 38 PPG, 16.7 RPG, 2.5 APG, and shot 61.1% FG, in 45.5 minutes a game. Kobe averaged 15.6 PPG, 4.8 RPG, 4.2 APG, and shot 36.7% in 35.2 minutes a game. Reggie Miller averaged 24.3 PPG, 2.8 RPG, and 4 APG, and shot 44.7%. in 42 minutes a game. Why is there an argument about who should be MVP in this one? Also Rik Smits only played 19.3 minutes a game, and he put up 10 PPG (46.6%) and 4 RPG, he really wasn't on Shaq that much, the bench big men, and Dale Davis were on Shaq more than Smits. Dale Davis averaged 8.7 PPG, 10 RPG, and shot 57.5% in 29.5 minutes a game. Lastly, the matchup defensively for Kobe wasn't too bad, the older Reggie Miller was not defensive beast considering the youger Reggie was nothing super on the defensive end. Jalen Rose is a garbage defender also, but he has to be give some props, he had 23 PPG, 4.5 RPG, 3.0 APG, and shot 46.1% while playing 43.1 MPG, but on defense he's garbage. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If the shooting guards were rookies or starting "role players"...it would be different. Kobe would've scored 40 every other game too, correct? Shaq did the same...but I wonder if Kobe would've gotten an MVP. Possibly. But, even with Iverson and the others, he was putting in 20 and 25...which isn't bad...the average scoring champ puts in about 28 or so. If you can average almost that much against great guards, you should be MVP in my opinion. That's pretty much all I was trying to get across.</div> You should be if you didn't have someone else on your team putting up better numbers, but he did, so he didn't get it basically. Also why are you making it seem like he's playing defensive stoppers, especially with the whole Iverson and Reggie thing, they aren't anything special on defense, but Kidd and Snow I'll agree too, but they're PG's Kobe has a big advantage on them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">My point is this: the Lakers could've put any decent center in his place and still won. Kobe was the one who held off onslaughts from Iverson, Miller and Kidd...because Iverson can score 50 on any given day against someone like Rick Fox.</div> Really? This is your point? So if their was no Shaq, just Kobe, Decent Center, AC Green, Ron Harper, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, John Salley, Brian Shaw and Devean George, the Lakers would've won in 1999-2000? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">However, it's worth pointing out that Eric Snow (a very good defenisve player) defended Kobe...Kobe has gone on record and said that Eric Snow (for one reason or another) does the best job of defending him...</div> Yup I mentioned that in another thread in the Heat forum. Also, Iverson isn't the best man to man defender (just decent), especially against other SG's, so I wouldn't call that a hard matchup on offense for Kobe, but on defense it would be. Having Snow guarding would be tougher on offense (at least compared to AI) even though Kobe still has the size and height advantage, but on defense Snow isn't much of a threat to score.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Really? This is your point? So if their was no Shaq, just Kobe, Decent Center, AC Green, Ron Harper, Glen Rice, Rick Fox, Derek Fisher, Robert Horry, John Salley, Brian Shaw and Devean George, the Lakers would've won in 1999-2000?</div> I'm talking about the NBA Finals, not the regular season. I never mentioned a thing about the regular season MVP award...I'm talking the Finals. If the Lakers had, say...Elden Campbell, during the 2002 NBA Finals against the Nets, he would've destroyed Todd MacCulloch too, and the Lakers would've easily won. Now, keep Shaq...but replace Kobe with...Kendall Gill. No chance.
I dont know, but those Stats against the Pacers speak for themselves. OG15, you have the stats for the other two finals?
