So What's Our Speed Limit?

There's a lot to consider here.

FWIW, this year has basically been the Pau and Jimmy show. They even made the all-star team. I don't see any reason to think this hasn't consistently been our go to lineup. The three guys around those two have been meh, no matter who the three are.

Thibs didn't talk about minutes restrictions last year. The interference by management cannot be ignored. We see the results. The "motor" of the team has been held back from playing 6-8 minutes a game. How can we win by not playing our best? Noah's game has seriously declined, and I don't think Pau has anything to do with that.

The choice of DunVP, Snell, or McDud at SF is underwhelming. The alternative is to play Jimmy at SF and start Kirk. Thibs has played them all for significant enough minutes that we can plainly see the suckage.

Brooks has been fine, but probably the worst of the midget PGs the past few seasons. Would you rather play Brooks or Augustin? DJ, obviously.

I don't know that anything Thibs hasn't tried would be even incrementally better. He played the hell out of Mirotic at PF and at a super high Usg, and we were sub .500. Snell got big minutes and was awesome for 2 or 3 games, but hasn't shown you want him a key rotation player in a short rotation playoff series.

Bet it all on Rose. In spite of the odds he'd miss games and not be all star form. In our minds, the team has all star Rose but in reality we have .400 shooting Rose who is a sieve on D, and way too much Kirk in Rose's absence.

As icky as the starting lineup has been, the 2nd unit stunk it up from the start of the season. So when starters miss games, those 2nd unit guys stink it up in the starting lineup. And the rest of the bench filling in the 2nd unit holes are Nazr types.

I chalk up the Magic game to poor mismatches for us, and Thibs using this game to set expectations and execute what he thinks is the best rotation for the playoffs. Lack of practice time means do it in the games.

 

Thibs said something to them at halftime. Whatever it was, he should bottle it.

 

Yeah, the Bulls are healthy. What they don't appear to be is "finely tuned," though that 39-8 run last night was damned impressive.

I feel pretty good about the Bulls right now. Real nice talent...some fans unrealistically believe that their team should have all stars at every position and the Bulls don't have that, but except for SF, the Bulls' starting lineup have some pretty impressive credentials. They also have a number of players who have excelled in playoffs past.

I expect this season's Bulls to be about 80% at the beginning of the first-round series and 90% by the end of it. Whether they can get from 90% to true full-tilt boogie depends on the team's continued health and how far back Rose can come. If you can't remember how good Rose can be, just watch Russell Westbrook...Westbrook right now is very similar to what Rose would look like if he were to make it all the way back. If THAT Rose materializes at some point this postseason for our Bulls, things could get all kinds of interesting.

Bring it on.

 

Is Oladipo good? I think he's really impressive. So it's not shocking that he and Jimmy might be pretty close in performance in a game match up.

Payton is big and athletic. A leaper. Though he doesn't have the great outside shot, he's still a load to handle. He was all over the offensive glass all night, especially when guarded by our midget PG (Brooks).

Those two guards shot 14-28, .500 against us. Payton almost had a triple double, finishing with 9 rebounds and 9 assists.

Vucevic is maybe a shade under elite level at C. That's 3/5 of the lineup that's really tough on us, especially with Rose limited to 20.

The storyline of the game was Rose's return. The score may be secondary to that. We're going to need Rose or we'll be going home early.

Can't loaf against those guys. I do think they have a bright future, too. That's my takeaway from the Orlando game.

 

Gelling's important primarily in terms of getting the most out of a Derrick Rose who is hitting on all cylinders. This team has never experienced this. Obviously, this would be a high-class problem.

I pretty much view the past as irrelevant. If the Bulls are going to make serious noise, they're going to look like a team we've never seen.

 

The Bulls are not going to make it to the finals because Thibodeau will be outcoached.

 

The Bulls don't have all-league players on the roster anymore I fear.

When Rose was at a MVP level there was compelling case to be made that this team could win a NBA championship. He isn't anymore.

Noah was at a all-NBA 1st team level last season. He isn't anymore.

If the productive core of the team is a 34 year old Pau Gasol, a really good (but not all-nba 1st team level) but still in his 1st year of playing at an all-star level Jimmy Butler, rookies and role players, the Bulls of course are not likely going to win the NBA Championship.

That's why they are the #3 favorite to come out of the east.

There's an argument that the Bulls and Rose especially can "flip a switch" and suddenly perform at an all-league level again.

“I’m getting there,” Rose said of finding his rhythm. “It’s still going to take some time.”

You are out of time Rose. The time is now. (the paychecks will come twice a month either way though, as i'm sure you and reggie are aware of)

Thibs seems to understand what Rose needs to do.

“We try to back it up more toward when he was playing well right before the All-Star break,” Thibodeau said at Saturday’s shootaround. “And I thought that was the whole key to him getting into a good rhythm again, was he went back to some of the mid-range shots. To me, that was his strength coming into the league. So I think what that does is it gives him good rhythm. I don’t want a steady diet, but I think a good mix of the attacks to the rim, the mid-range shot and then the three, if he’s got the rhythm going and it’s coming out of the post or it’s dribble penetration or it’s weak side, those are good threes for him.”

Attack the rim 1st, mid range shot 2nd, 3 pointer last. We all know this is the way it should be for a player like Rose. I also don't think anyone feels he's being coached to play different than this.

Thibs also understands why "flip the switch" is a stupid argument, IMO.

“That’s part of what I was talking about by having guys play together,” Thibodeau said. “So when a team does that, they’re switching all five, this is what we’re going to do. If a team traps us on a small-small pick-and-roll, this is what we’re going to do.

“That’s why you want the guys to be out there together and practice together.”


This is a hodge podge of a roster that isn't built to have an identity. Identity is built by playing together and practicing together in a meaningful fashion. GarPax has built an identity of minute restrictions, Jen Swanson and smear the head coach.

What are the Bulls? How are they built to win?

In previous seasons, it was with a Thibs style defense and a MVP level player in Rose. This means having athletic rim protectors at the 4 and the 5. Noah / Taj / Asik types.

The league has shifted a bit to counteract the league wide influences Thibs' defense has had.

The popular notion is to have a stretch 4 and play more motion offense. If that's what the org wants, fine, but then why did you choose to have Taj Gibson as your 3rd highest paid player?

Taj gets a lot of flak since his style of game isn't en vouge at the 4 and many want to see the Chicago Nikos, but GarPax decided to pay him 8 million dollars a year this season, which is the 3rd highest paid guy on the active roster.

And its of course foolish to expect a rookie to be the core guy on a NBA champion.

Hinrich gets a lot of flak, but GarPax decided to give him a player option next year. Why? What's the long term vision / goal there?

The Bulls org is lost. They were trying to win with Rose and a Thibs style strong defense which requires guys like Taj and Naoh at the 4 and 5.

It now seems like it is in a transition of some type, as they signed Niko and Pau in the off season. Pau isn't a long term solution of course and was not the 1st option this off-season for a reason. The reason is that it doesn't make a lot of sense, given the makeup of the roster and the identity of the team. But, the Bulls org failed to accomplish what they sought out to do this offseason and had to make a secondary move. Now, its turned out to be probably better for the Bulls in the long run (another example of how building Cap Space and then overpaying for guys MAX style has may pitfalls) since they are not locked into the Melo contract. Melo saying no saved GarPax's bacon.

It may be time to blow it up if these playoffs go south. Rose seems content to be a lazy, scared player / millionaire / future meetings body preserver , Noah may be permanently deteriorating and GarPax (with all their rings) want to move the org in a different direction. Thibs will still be considered league wide one of the best coaches in the NBA, despite the Bulls org smear, and will get work elsewhere and likely do pretty well. If he can get elite NBA talent, I would not be surprised to see another ring, although there is something to be said about his once innovative defense not being much of a competitive advantage anymore, since many have adopted it. When I hear the players interviewed and the beat guys report, they tend to say that the locker room considers Thibs to be one of the assets the team has a in playoff series, but at the end of the day, a NBA coach is secondary to the talent.

 

I'm just going to try to address the above, but Jeez, the way some folks stretch to be negative will always astound me.

Yeah, the Bulls aren't any sort of juggernaut or even a top favorite. They're just one of a half dozen or so teams that are "in the mix" as the playoffs loom.
If you're not a fan of one of those teams that are in the mix, you're probably in the process of trying to decide which other team to get behind come next week. I for one am thankful that I don't need to make that sort of decision.

I agree that these Bulls lack an identity. They were supposed to be a team that defended the hell out of you and simply beat you to death on the boards. Why the Bulls have fallen off so much on defense seems to depend on your agenda. If you're a Thibodeau detractor, it's because the players have at least semi tuned the head coach out. If you're a ownership/FO detractor, minutes limits GarPax and Jen Swanson get the blame.

I don't know why the Bulls are middle of the pack on defense, but I do think that Noah was the player who made the Bulls' defense work. Noah has spent almost the entirety of this season hurt, recovering from being hurt or chasing PFs well out on the floor. Also, Gasol isn't a very good defender, but unlike fellow poor defender Carlos Boozer, Gasol has almost always been placed in the position of being the last line of defense. To me, Gasol always seems to be looking for his next blocked shot rather than getting his ass where it needs to be.

As it is, the Bulls aren't statistically outstanding at anything, but are above average in most key statistics. This certainly doesn't help the perceived identity crisis (perceived by fans/media...I doubt the Bulls players much care). None of it matters much though since regardless of your agenda, you pretty much have to agree that the Bulls have no chance in the postseason if they don't play a lot better in the playoffs than they did during the regular season.

 

I agree with this. But isn't it Thibs' job to change his coaching to what will enable his roster to be successful? Can Thibs really expect the front office to only pick players that are custom made for his system? Shouldn't it be his job to figure out a way to be successful with the guys the front office is able to acquire?

At the back end of the first round you're just hoping for talent. Asking for talent that fits in your system seems like a bridge too far?

You give Pops the Bulls' roster and it would be a contender.

 

I can't say, since I've never seen Pops deal with the roster instability that Thibs has the last three seasons.

I've also never seen Pops operate in an environment where the front office is actively trying to undermine him.

What do you think he would do different to make these Bulls any more than the #3 favorite to come out of the East? More Niko at the 4 and less Taj? Bench Noah outright?

Its funny how all of a sudden Spo can't make the playoffs and Blatt is in line to get a ring. I would love to see Pop coach another team, just to prove he can do it somewhere else.

 

3rd seed isn't a contender?

That's with multiple starters missing ~20 games each.

 

As for the D, I don't think its that complex.

Noah is a shell of his former self and Gasol is a poor defender. Thibs's D is built around having strong defenders at the 4 and 5.

Thibs has adjusted, despite having a weak defender in Gasol to deal with, in as much as he's gotten the most out of him possible. But the defense is going to suffer playing Gasol heavy minutes at the 5.

The word "contender" is a funny in internet arguments. I guess you could say the Bulls are a "contender" but if they play the way they have this season, I have little faith they are going to win the NBA Title. If Rose can resume playing again at an elite level, then they will have a chance to win the NBA title. If Noah can play at an elite level as well, they will have an even better chance.

People used to say that the core-4 of Hinrich-Gordon-Nocioni-Deng was a "contender." They were a better than average team, but they were not going to win a NBA title. Regardless of head coach. If Rose isn't elite, these Bulls are the same, regardless of coach.

 

Rose scored 22 points, grabbed 6 rebounds, and dished 7 assists in 29 minutes.

Looked a lot like MVP Rose to me. He looked pretty good in D, too.

Playing Gasol is a clear indication that Thibs can adjust his style.

 

I think Pops would play Noah and Niko as the starting front court. I don't believe Noah and Niko are playing poorly, just out of position. Pau becomes your super-sub backup at center, ala Manu Ginobili, with Gibson taking spot minutes at either position. I think moving Pau to the bench also allows you to move Snell into the starting lineup, which shores up your defense. Dunleavy's rebounding becomes less important.

But I also think it's about sets as much as its about minutes and positions. This team needs an offense that isn't so dependent on high pick and roll and Rose/Brooks creating something out of nothing. The team isn't going to get anywhere if that's your go to set.

 

I don't think Gasol signed here at below market value to come off the bench. And Gasol was the starting all-star in the East this season. The Gasol situation is so interesting, IMO, because its the source of many of the teams woes, but he's playing great for him and has helped the team as well. I just wonder if he's a net negative.

I actually would give a try closing out games with Niko / Taj if Noah is no longer a great player or, I agree, Niko / Noah if he is. Of course, I don't have a locker room to manage. And I don't think its the difference between winning the NBA championship or not. Niko at the 4 for 40 minutes a game this season with a soft playing Rose. Lebron and the Cavs roll the Bulls. And Thibs haters rip Thibs for playing Niko too many minutes. He's ruining him!!!!!


I don't think playing Niko at the 4 makes the D better. Taking Gasol off the court at the 5 does.

If Noah is still ineffective for the most part, closing games with Rose / Snell / Butler / Niko / Gibson would be a good option. If you are going to have a stretch 4, you need the 5 to be a physical, athletic, rebound grabbin', shot blockin' type, IMO. Taj is not a center, but he's the closest thing we have to someone that can do these things.

 

Right, but you can't take Gasol off the court unless you have Niko at the four. Niko opens everything up for penetration. This team is dead in the water on offense with a Noah-Gibson front court. Niko may not make you better at the 4 on defense, but he's an average-plus defender that allows you to take Pau off the court without the offense completely falling apart.

 

Do you think it was a good idea to sign Pau Gasol, given that he probably would not have signed here to come off the bench and not close out games?