The "Build Around Dame Vs Not" Myth?

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by wizenheimer, May 17, 2022.

  1. glazeduck

    glazeduck Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree with this at all. If your team isn't ready to compete with a salary and player like Butler, what's the point of acquiring him (especially when its going to cost you assets that you should be using to build your team?) Mediocrity is the absolute worst thing to be in the NBA

    Little is our 2nd best player with untapped upside and he showed tremendous progression last year. I didn't say he was the 2nd coming of MJ, but you've got to start somewhere. It's pretty clear that one of the few paths we have to take is rebuilding around youth, who else would you suggest we build around if not him?

    First of all, Vince Carter is a hall of famer, so yeah, he's worth building around. Secondly, Simons took four years because we drafted him, essentially, out of HS. In the absence of better options, the fact that he's young enough to be in this draft class and has shown a steady track of progression makes him worth being a player to build around.

    I fail to see how these situations are at all similar. If we're trading Simons+ to get a PG/Butler level player to try and win with Dame, then fine. But even if our Cronin can somehow swing that (I'm not holding my breath), it would take a borderline miracle to make us a true title contender. As such, it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider options post-Dame trade at all.
     
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  2. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru spent money on booze broads boats wasted rest

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    he may have been referring to Linsanity?
     
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  3. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I'd say mediocrity is about the 2nd worst. The worst would be having a management record like the Kings

    But I think it's nuts to suggest a team would not want two players with talent like Butler. That would be like Boston not wanting Tatum and Brown. Or Chicago not wanting Jordan and Pippen. Those kind of talents it what you build around. You don't build around Jordan Poole...or Ant. Not yet at least

    well, be careful of trying to tap Little's upside...you'll injure him with that tap. Right now, I'd rate Dame/Ant/Nurkic/Hart all much higher than Little and Watford might be close. Little has flashed some potential but he hasn't come anywhere close to earning a core player role, and even some core players aren't worthy of building around

    maybe our issue is the definition of 'building around': I define build around talent as elite...repeat all-star level. A GM would be crazy to look for players that complement Little. That doesn't mean you don't give him a chance to develop, but he isn't going to develop much if he can't stay healthy

    I misspoke...I meant Linsanity...as in Jeremy Lin who had a 25 game stretch in his 2nd season as impressive of what Simons did in his 4th season. The Knicks would have been loopy to use that stretch as a reason to build around Lin

    I don't have a problem with considering "post-Dame" options. I have a problem with creating a post-Dame era now because of Simons and Little
     
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  4. glazeduck

    glazeduck Well-Known Member

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    All depends on what you believe, I guess. My philosophy in the NBA is if you're not championship caliber, you're not good enough. I don't think Dame, Butler and a bunch of scraps is championship caliber, so why bother?

    However you define it, there will be a pecking order of players. If we're restarting, you're looking at young players with upside, that's Ant and then Nas, pretty much by default. That doesn't mean I'm anointing them as anything other than the guys who are likely the best pieces moving forward...

    I knew what you meant, was just having a little fun. And I'd argue that most sane people could see the Linsanity experiment for what it was at the time, insanity.


    Just comes down to how relevant you think you can make a Blazers team around Dame. Is a bunch of 5, 6, 7 seeds and first-round bounces worth it to watch him retire here? Because I think the argument that many are making is that there's not a large enough window of opportunity, given cap situation, available assets, ability of front office, engagement of ownership, etc. to truly have a legit shot at a ring. That's all I'm saying. If you don't believe that our future assets are enough to build a championship roster, why slog through another half decade of mediocrity and waste your most valuable asset's prime when you can restart and try again? As before, Simons and Little may or may not be true pillars, but they're the best long term options we have. That's not creating the post-Dame era because of them, that's creating a post-Dame era because of the reality of things.
     
  5. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    you keep talking about a "post-Dame" era

    What I would like to see is the Blazers devote at least a full season to post-Olshey/CJ--->with-Dame era before throwing their hands in the air and giving up

    IMO, it's dumb to advocate a post-Dame era to start now just because the trade deadline did not turn a below .500 team into a contender....but that sure as hell seems to be the gauge some of you are using
     
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  6. swish3

    swish3 Well-Known Member

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    The "post-Dame era" will not begin until 2028 or later. There is a good chance for multiple NBA Championships with Dame in the next 5 years!
     
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  7. KSF-ERIC

    KSF-ERIC Well-Known Member

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    I think the point is thus. Dame and Simons each need their own team to run. Which team is better:

    1)Simons plus the players Dame can get us

    or

    2)Dame plus the players Simons can get us

    That's the Build Around Dame vs Not Equation. And it's not a Myth.
     
  8. KSF-ERIC

    KSF-ERIC Well-Known Member

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    Who said Cronin would EVER throw his hands in the air and give up? His job is to make us the most competitive as possible and that is what he will do. I've never seen a GM give up though.
     
  9. KSF-ERIC

    KSF-ERIC Well-Known Member

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    I think you mean Linsanity. And Linsanity was just about 8 games long. Simons was dominating teams that were guarding him like he was Dame. Fuck, look at Game 82 of his rookie year. We gave him the team, he got 37 and 9. Simons needs his own team.
     
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  10. KSF-ERIC

    KSF-ERIC Well-Known Member

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    Well, not even counting the eye test.... peruse this link and you will some incredible potential especially leading up to his injury. Also factor in his defense, the eye test, and his age and he absolutely should be considered a part of our core.

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/littlna01/gamelog/2022
     
  11. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru spent money on booze broads boats wasted rest

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    yeah, its going to take a few years to be in a position to POSSIBLY contend. Even then the road through the playoffs can be disappointing.
     
  12. UKRAINEFAN

    UKRAINEFAN Well-Known Member

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    For some reason the only response that came to my head is "I also have untapped upside!".
     
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  13. glazeduck

    glazeduck Well-Known Member

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    I'm not advocating for anything, simply acknowledging that there are really only 2 options and I'm not super optimistic about the Dame version.
     
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  14. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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    swish3 is back!

    Probably need some positivity around here; we're not going to get it being a rational Blazers fan.
     
  15. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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    GM's usually trade away distant assets for immediate veteran help. Screw the franchise and fan base long term but try to help their job the next year.

    That or just sheer incompetence trading value for scrubs, overpaying terrible players.

    Scary that we have seen a bit of the second, and could see more of both faults from Cronin this summer.
     
  16. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    your ability to read between line that weren't there in the first place is amazing, especially when the lines that were there were simply colloquial hyperbole

    for damn sure some people are saying that they can't see a way that Portland can ever be a contender with Dame so the Blazers should just give up on that idea and trade Dame. That very point has been argued hundreds of times in this forum over the last few months
     
  17. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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    That full season win with Dame idea was a fine line to take before the trade deadline when the Blazers had the assets to possibly build a winner around Dame. Still would have needed a series of great moves in order for that to happen. Unlikely but had a realistic possibility of happening.

    But now the franchise lost 4 starters and replaced them with much lesser talent, and no picks or other assets. There is no realistic way to build a winner around Dame soon.

    I'm fine if the Blazers want to do a stealth tank rebuild of getting lottery picks while Dame jacks up shots for a few years as Kobe did at the end of his career. But I don't see the point in going through a failed win now effort with Dame which sacrifices even more young players, picks, and assets.

    The Blazers need to rebuild for when there is a chance to win, not do a bunch of win now moves around Dame that are more or less guaranteed to fail.
     
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  18. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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    Its basically the only point worth discussing with this franchise.

    There is no way to build a contender now. Other years there were and we'd have hundreds of trade ideas improving the starting lineup. There are no discussions on this now because its not possible for the Blazers to do.

    The only choice is do we trade Dame to help a rebuild or keep him around for some other purpose.
     
  19. glazeduck

    glazeduck Well-Known Member

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    Not to mention, now that we know how the lottery shook out, that's a pretty significant impact to the "build around Dame" strategy that's shot to hell. If you can't appreciate how things have changed in the last 48 hours, I don't know what to tell ya...
     
  20. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus They don't do much, you know Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    The fact that you declare something to be so didn't necessarily make it so. I see you're passionate about this opinion, but it's still just an opinion.
     
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