<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Apr 17 2008, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I hope we don't pull a Boston. That should have been done with Kidd and Carter here.</div> Carter still is. And Harris is looking like he may be better than Kidd at this stage I'd love it. Who wouldn't want to pull off a move that gets you the best record in basket ball <- that's my definition of pulling a Boston!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Thorn thought he put together a team that would extend the Nets' postseason streak to seven years. When he was forced to trade one very important yet disgruntled piece, Jason Kidd, Thorn thought he had assembled enough talent to make a run. It didn't happen.</div> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>"We certainly feel that we should be a playoff team," Thorn said. "We're going to try to do what we need to do in order to get back there."</div>
Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today. He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury. He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today. He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury. He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.</div> FOMW, I'm interested in that too. I admit haven't seen more than a handful of games with him playing, but I've checked out 82games.com. What I've found matches your observation. Elton Brand seems to be more a jump shooter than an inside player, and increasingly so: 2002-2003: <font size=-1>Shot selection</font> <table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1> <tr bgcolor=e5e5e5> <td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 53% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.375 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 67% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 6% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 5.7 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 35% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.571 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 55% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 9% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 5.8 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 8% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.971 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 78% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 2.2 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.650 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0.8 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=f0f0df> <td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 47% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.644 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 55% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 7% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 8.9 </font></td> </tr> </table> 2003-2004: <font size=-1>Shot selection</font> <table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1> <tr bgcolor=e5e5e5> <td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 58% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.389 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 62% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 6.4 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 35% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.609 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 57% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 13% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 6.0 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.972 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 66% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 1.0 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.553 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0.6 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=f0f0df> <td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 42% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.635 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 54% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 11% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 7.6 </font></td> </tr> </table> 2004-2005: <font size=-1>Shot selection</font> <table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1> <tr bgcolor=e5e5e5> <td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 62% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.418 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 71% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 8.0 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 30% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.582 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 56% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 13% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 5.3 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 6% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.959 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 70% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 1.8 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 2% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.630 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0.4 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=f0f0df> <td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 38% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.644 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 56% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 11% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 7.5 </font></td> </tr> </table> 2005-2006: <font size=-1>Shot selection</font> <table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1> <tr bgcolor=e5e5e5> <td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 70% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.475 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 63% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>12.1 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 24% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.615 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 54% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 11% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 5.3 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 4% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.933 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 66% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 1.4 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 2% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.500 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0.3 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=f0f0df> <td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 30% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.654 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 54% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 9% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 7.0 </font></td> </tr> </table> 2006-2007: <font size=-1>Shot selection</font> <table width=290 bgcolor=cccccc border=0 cellspacing=1> <tr bgcolor=e5e5e5> <td width=50 bgcolor=33cc33><center><font size=-1>Shot</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Att.</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>eFG%</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Ast'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Blk'd</font></center></td> <td width=48><center><font size=-1>Pts</font></center></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Jump</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 70% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.470 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 66% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>10.0 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Close</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 23% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.626 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 57% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 12% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 4.3 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Dunk</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 5% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.968 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 65% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 3% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 1.5 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=ffffff> <td><center><font size=-1>Tips</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 2% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.591 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 0.3 </font></td> </tr> <tr bgcolor=f0f0df> <td><center><font size=-1>Inside</font></center></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 30% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1>.683 </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 56% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 9% </font></td> <td align=right><font size=-1> 6.2 </font></td> </tr> </table> Brand went from having 47% of his shots come from inside in 2002-2003, to 30% in the past two seasons (2005-2006, 2006-2007). What I'm not sure, however, is if these stats include attempts that are fouled, or just only attempts that becomes a make or miss. He does get to the line a "fair" amount of times... 6-7 for his career, which is pretty good, and I'd assume those aren't fouls on his jumpshots.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Apr 17 2008, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I hope we don't pull a Boston. That should have been done with Kidd and Carter here.</div> trade RJ+Krstic+Marcus+DAL pick for Brand+Livingston, and #10+Swift+Livingston for Redd. Sign a combo guard with the MLE (Posey/Rush/Davis? nothing looking to good really.) Harris/Armstrong Redd/Rush? Carter/Nachbar Brand/Williams Boone/Diop hooray
The thing is, there is only one Kevin Garnett. Not saying Brand wouldn't be a good pick up but he's not the second best PF playing right now. Arguably first.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 05:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Netted, I saw the posts you linked to elsewhere detailing your ideas for a Brand S&T that involved Nenad, Marcus, and a pick. I'm curious as to how you (and others) would rank Brand in terms of big men today. He's had nice stats, but his teams have really never done very well. Has he ever been to the playoffs more than once? I've never really followed his career but have watched him a lot since his comeback late this year in anticipation the Nets might try to acquire him. In that limited exposure, he's really not doing much in the post. Most of his inside scoring has been off of offensive put backs, and he seems to be shooting the short jumper more than playing with his back to the basket. He doesn't look particularly fluid moving to me, and I'm struck anew at how undersized (in height) he looks to be a big-time PF. But I also realize how incredibly unfair it is to let only this most recent impression govern my assessments when he's just now coming back from a severe injury. He would obviously be a huge upgrade up front for the Nets, even at his current level of play, since he can both defend, rebound, and score. But I'm just wondering how folks that watch a lot of ball rank him vis-a-vis the Al Jeffersons, Garnetts, Stoudemires, O'Neals, etc., not in terms of athleticism/size but in terms of efficacy inside.</div> Here is some game footage of Brand versus the Nets from the 06/07 season: http://www.sendspace.com/file/a2nz7o 31MB.
Looking at highlights (emphasis on highlights), Brand seems to play offense facing the basket more often than not. Close shots are the result of drives or tips, not due to a post game. He's definitely no perimeter big man, however. Again, these are highlights. The numbers don't lie however. Whatever his offense game is, he still shoots about 50% every year, averaging about 20 pts/game while being (I'm assuming) the focus of (West!) opposing defenses. He is what he is: a strong, athletic, monster rebounding, and fearless scoring big man. I'd still take him.
Thanks for the hilights, NOMAM. Unfortunately I couldn't watch them as the video wouldn't show in my media player. Got no message about needing another codec, and I couldn't find codec info from the properties of the file. Don't know what the problem was.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FOMW @ Apr 17 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thanks for the hilights, NOMAM. Unfortunately I couldn't watch them as the video wouldn't show in my media player. Got no message about needing another codec, and I couldn't find codec info from the properties of the file. Don't know what the problem was.</div> Oh, the video codec is Xvid. A program to use to find out video codecs is: http://www.headbands.com/gspot/ But if you download and use this video player, it normally plays most types of video codecs for next time: http://www.videolan.org/vlc/
amare stoudemire would look good besides lebron james...and what? they can both leave their teams after 2009-10?!! hmmm...
Brand has become more of a jump shooter but that has also coincided with the addition of Kaman who is basically sharing the post with him. Elton uses his ability to draw his man out on the floor with the jumper more consistently than Chris can and in turn free up room for him to do his work on the offensive glass. I think Brand has adapted to what his team needs more so than just a gradual metamorphosis into a jump shooter a la Bosh and if asked to return to his down in the post skill set we saw in Chicago he'd be more than willing and capable to do so. Before his injury he was a deceivingly athletic player and a lot would rest on just how healthy he is and what impact it's had on his game because handful of games he's played this season are no real indication of where he's at.
Brand has become more of a jump shooter because his jump shot has improved dramatically. He's pretty lethal with that 15-17 footer now. He didn't have that earlier in his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (reganomics813 @ Apr 17 2008, 11:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Brand has become more of a jump shooter but that has also coincided with the addition of Kaman who is basically sharing the post with him. Elton uses his ability to draw his man out on the floor with the jumper more consistently than Chris can and in turn free up room for him to do his work on the offensive glass. I think Brand has adapted to what his team needs more so than just a gradual metamorphosis into a jump shooter a la Bosh and if asked to return to his down in the post skill set we saw in Chicago he'd be more than willing and capable to do so. Before his injury he was a deceivingly athletic player and a lot would rest on just how healthy he is and what impact it's had on his game because handful of games he's played this season are no real indication of where he's at.</div> Yoooo good to see you around stranger Those are good observations about Brand. In the hypothetical situation where he's traded to the Nets, how do you see him fitting in with our bigs? If the trade includes Krstic we might need him to function as a face-up shooter as well as the low-post scorer we've been searching for. Do you think he'll be able to deliever a well-rounded game? Do you think his injury would be a significant factor?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Main Event @ Apr 17 2008, 11:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yoooo good to see you around stranger Those are good observations about Brand. In the hypothetical situation where he's traded to the Nets, how do you see him fitting in with our bigs? If the trade includes Krstic we might need him to function as a face-up shooter as well as the low-post scorer we've been searching for. Do you think he'll be able to deliever a well-rounded game? Do you think his injury would be a significant factor?</div> What's up GM?! Gotta get used to your name change but I like it. Man it's really rough to say how he's gonna fit with basically our entire squad available at this point. I think he would have a good number of wide open shots on the wings a la Nenad and, while he's not as money as Nenad is, he'll provide enough from those spots to keep his defender honest freeing up Boone, Diop, Sean to clean the glass at their natural around the hoop range a la Kaman. The thing Elton brings that Nenad doesn't is that ability to pump fake and really attack the rim with a purpose, he's getting the bucket or the stripe everytime. Not to mention we'd def go back to dumpiing the ball in the post first thing each game where he'd be able to better establish a paint presence to help free up our guards for the rest of the game. Brand is a really adaptable and team oriented player, a lead by example kind of guy who puts forth constant effort and can exponentially strengthen our weak perimiter D with his long arms and shot blocking ability. Really his injury is the key component (duh). Is he really hindered by it? Will he be 100% again? I mean it'd be awesome if we were trading for EB from a season ago but we at this point we don't know if that guy can reemerge. You know our training staff would run him through the gauntlet to get all the info they need. If they said go i'd say we got one heck of a steal because he's so versatile he can help us in alot of areas in games and teaching in practice. I think getting quality guys like Brand who are well rounded will help our younger kids find their way. Currently we have younger kids trying to learn off each other and a guy like that would take alot of pressure off them and allow them to just play their games and evolve naturally a la Kaman once again.
I've actually been pretty surprised by how effective Brand has been after coming back this year, probably because of the context of my perception: earlier that season I saw Nenad Krstic come back from a season ending injury, and ~1.5 seasons after his injury he's still not where he should be. Brand can rebound, and is gifted offensively, but is there anything that he can't bring to the table? Ideally we would trade RJ+ a big that leaves us with a good complimentary player. I think you hit the nail on the head with how he pairs with Kaman, and so hopefully we could trade away Krstic to fill that outside-inside relationship they had (keeping in mind that he doesn't have as much value as he could). I don't want to trade Sean. The second half the season has incurred doubts in people's minds as to what he could become, but based on the experience he's had I still feel like he could be a great young player for the future of this franchise. I'd also love to see him learn under Brand. That leaves Stromile, Boone, and Diop. Stromile is a going to be a $6 million expiring contract. Boone was our best big man this season, who was able to become a double double guy in our Nets system. Still, I've got my concerns about his durability. Also how would he function as a member of the Clippers? At least if he's packaged with Krstic he's be valuable off the bench. I'd prefer to keep Diop. I think its important we maintain our best post defender, and he's a good rebounder. So while I won't address specific trade proposals, I think if we can get away with RJ+Boone+Krstic+pick that leave us with a a reason to draft a big man in the draft, and a group of guys that can play well together.
