Very tough but I'm taking Tim duncan. Skill setOffenseStats don't tell half the story here. The offensive skills of both guys were amazing. One guy had a serous of jukes, fakes which were basically unguardable. When Shaq admits he's been totally outplayed you know you're bad. Timmy on the otherhand maybe has the most post moves I've ever seen. Bank shot from 15 foot is also deadly. Stats don't do justice to his offense. He has never taken 20 shots in his career. His offensive arsenal makes me think he could've averaged 30 points in atleast one season. He definentlty has more Range then Hakeem had. Both great passers, it's really hard here to determine who the better passer is. I'm calling a tie hereDefenseHakeem in his prime was the better defender. Better shotblocker and better rebounder. Timmy himself was an amazing defender, whether it was shutting down K-mart or tieing the record for most blocks in a nba finals game. Both were defensive anchors and both were part of great defensive teams. Tim is a great low post defender because I've seen him at work. When watching Hakeem I didn't focus on his low post d so I can't comment on it. I'll take hakeem here because he won 2 defensive player of the year and everyone raves about his defense.So why do I think Timmy is better? He's won more and is the only constant through those 3 championship teams. His won more mvp's, more finals mvp, More All Nba teams and More all Nba defenisve teams Had he not be injured he would've made it to all Nba team this season. He single handedly ended The bling dynasty. He won the finals mvp in his 2nd season. * 2-time NBA Most Valuable Player: 2002, 2003 * 2-time TSN NBA Most Valuable Player: 2002, 2003 * 3-time NBA Champion: 1999, 2003, 2005 * 3-time NBA Finals MVP: 1999, 2003, 2005 * 8-time NBA All-Star: 1998, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 * 7-time starter (2000–2006) * NBA All-Star Game MVP: 2000 * 9-time All-NBA: * First Team: 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 * Second Team: 2006 * 9-time All-Defensive: * First Team: 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005 * Second Team: 1998, 2004, 2006 * NBA All-Rookie First Team: 1998 * NBA Rookie of the Year: 1998 * TSN NBA Rookie of the Year: 1998 * NBA regular-season leader, field goals made: 2002 (764) * NBA regular-season leader, total rebounds: 2002 (1,042) * One of only four players to receive All-NBA First Team honors in each of his first 8 seasons (1998-2005), along with Hall of Famers Bob Pettit (10 seasons), Larry Bird (9 seasons), and Oscar Robertson (9 seasons). * Only player in NBA history to receive All-NBA and All-Defensive honors in his first 9 seasons (1998-2006).[3] * NBA playoff records: * Most consecutive field goals made, none missed: 12 (May 17, 2006 vs. the Dallas Mavericks; tied with Larry McNeill) * NBA Finals records: * Most blocks averaged per game, series: 5.3 (2003 NBA Finals) * Most blocks, one game: 8 (decisive Game 6 of the 2003 NBA Finals; also had 21 points, 20 rebounds, and 10 assists in the same game)This guy is freaking amazing :worthy:
^Yes, he is freaking amazing, probably the greatest PF of all time.You did a great job with what you said, and I do not feel I need to add anymore on except one thing:Hakeem won his 2 'chips when MJ was playing baseball. He never had to beat the great Bulls dynasty to get his titles. He had less competition all around. TD's Spurs had to beat the Lakers, the Pistons, among other great teams. I justb feel that getting 3 'chips in past 7 years against tougher competition is more impressive than back to back championships against a fairly weak league and completed without the presence of MJ.
Gosh, I think both of these players are absolutley amazing. I love the point that Nitro made about Hakeem only winning it while Jordan was playing baseball. It basically says that he couldnt do it unless he was given the help to do so. Both players were good leaders, players, and all had great accomplishments. I just think that Tim did them better. I am not going to even argue agianst their skill sets because they were adn are both amazing. It basically comes down to accomplishments AND Tim isnt done yet. I am going to go with one of my fav players of all time, Timmy D.
Nitro, I still think the rockets could've beaten the bulls in 1994-1995. Horace grant was gone, he was their best big man. The rockets that year outside of Hakeem were stacked with good role players.
Since the Bulls were damn near unstoppable for so long, and had the greatest player of all time in Jordan, along with one of the greatest 2nd men in NBA history to go with some very good role players, I think Bulls would have beaten them. Nothing from the '90's could point to otherwise.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 19 2006, 11:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Since the Bulls were damn near unstoppable for so long, and had the greatest player of all time in Jordan, along with one of the greatest 2nd men in NBA history to go with some very good role players, I think Bulls would have beaten them. Nothing from the '90's could point to otherwise.</div>Atleast Horace atleast could've bodied up against against Hakeem. Hakeem would've absolutely destroyed the Big men of the bulls. And then you have the rockets stacked with good role players. I still think they could've beaten the bulls. The team was pefectly balanced.
And the mavericks of this year were VERY nicely balanced as well, outmatched Miami almost all the way around, but when they faced a top swingman in the league what happenned? Burned.MJ always did everything in his power to win (60 points on Celtics in playoffs, 38pts with flu, etc..), and with the unstoppable duo of him and Scottie in the '90's (a player who was also a 20/8/6 guy and one of best defenders of all time on perimeter) I can't see the Rockets beating them. And while the Rockets had amazing role players, Bulls did have BJ Armstrong, Kukoc, Harper and Kerr, so it isn't like they had nothing outside the top 2.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 19 2006, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And the mavericks of this year were VERY nicely balanced as well, outmatched Miami almost all the way around, but when they faced a top swingman in the league what happenned? Burned.MJ always did everything in his power to win (60 points on Celtics in playoffs, 38pts with flu, etc..), and with the unstoppable duo of him and Scottie in the '90's (a player who was also a 20/8/6 guy and one of best defenders of all time on perimeter) I can't see the Rockets beating them. And while the Rockets had amazing role players, Bulls did have BJ Armstrong, Kukoc, Harper and Kerr, so they had something outside of MJ and Scottie.</div>And the mavericks couldn't guard Wade like others could against MJ in the past. The mavericks were the more talented team, they just choked. At times also it was 8 against 5. Also, they let Haslem guard Dirk agressively.The rockets that year owned the spurs in the wcf. The spurs had the most wins in the league and the mvp of the finals. If Hakeem made David robinson look silly then I don't know what he would do to the bulls big men. He'd easily put up better stats then MJ because of the lack of competition.The rockets played great defense, were stacked and had role players who could actually make big plays. The bulls that year were weak in the front court. The rockets could afford to throw multiple people at a 30+ year old MJ because their stacked. In this case I don't see how a perfectly balanced team with 2 stars and great role players who could make big shots could lose against the bulls that year. I've watched the team and I believe their madly underrated.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 18 2006, 09:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And the mavericks couldn't guard Wade like others could against MJ in the past. The mavericks were the more talented team, they just choked. At times also it was 8 against 5. Also, they let Haslem guard Dirk agressively.The rockets that year owned the spurs in the wcf. The spurs had the most wins in the league and the mvp of the finals. If Hakeem made David robinson look silly then I don't know what he would do to the bulls big men. He'd easily put up better stats then MJ because of the lack of competition.The rockets played great defense, were stacked and had role players who could actually make big plays. The bulls that year were weak in the front court. The rockets could afford to throw multiple people at a 30+ year old MJ because their stacked. In this case I don't see how a perfectly balanced team with 2 stars and great role players who could make big shots could lose against the bulls that year. I've watched the team and I believe their madly underrated.</div>My point was that no matter how far down you are to a more tlaented overall team, as long as you got a player the caliber of a Wade, MJ, Kobe, or T-Mac that can totally take over games by scoring amazing amounts of points at a time to lead a team to victory, you can beat just about anyone. If MJ could score 41PPG against the Lakers in his first finals appearence, lead his team to best regular season record of all time, have countless seasons of over 60 wins, 2 3 peats, etc.... Then look at his individual accolades and his stats....he is the GOAT that knew how to dominate the game of basketball like no other.I never said Hakeem wouldn't dominate the Bulls frontline, but if the BUlls were actually struggling I am sure MJ would light it up like he did vs the Lakers in the Finals, or agains tthe Celtics in playoffs, and pull out wins. And again, they also had another top 50 player in Scottie, and a good array of other scorers. He wouldn't have to do it alone, although he certainly was capable of carrying that team. They are pretty underrated as they didn't have to face the Bulls. And that is understandable looking at how the Bulls totally DOMINATED the '90's. The Rockets were an amazing group built around one of the best centers in NBA history, but I still feel the GOAT, one of the best players of all time in Scottie, and a nice group of role players along with a great coach could have beaten the Rockets.PS- For fun, I entered it on the Simmatch thing or whatever it is. I entered it 8x, and Bulls won 6 of the 8 times. I don't know what they base their stats on, but the numbers seemed fairly accurate to the situations and how the players did that year (MJ never scored over 30pts in any of the games). Again, means nothing, but when debates like this arise it is fun to do.
Hakeem's Rockets beat the Lakers in 1986. At that time, that Laker team was being called the greatest ever, the Rockets pulled off a massive upset. That has got to count for something.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Sep 19 2006, 12:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My point was that no matter how far down you are to a more tlaented overall team, as long as you got a player the caliber of a Wade, MJ, Kobe, or T-Mac that can totally take over games by scoring amazing amounts of points at a time to lead a team to victory, you can beat just about anyone. If MJ could score 41PPG against the Lakers in his first finals appearence, lead his team to best regular season record of all time, have countless seasons of over 60 wins, 2 3 peats, etc.... Then look at his individual accolades and his stats....he is the GOAT that knew how to dominate the game of basketball like no other.I never said Hakeem wouldn't dominate the Bulls frontline, but if the BUlls were actually struggling I am sure MJ would light it up like he did vs the Lakers in the Finals, or agains tthe Celtics in playoffs, and pull out wins. And again, they also had another top 50 player in Scottie, and a good array of other scorers. He wouldn't have to do it alone, although he certainly was capable of carrying that team. They are pretty underrated as they didn't have to face the Bulls. And that is understandable looking at how the Bulls totally DOMINATED the '90's. The Rockets were an amazing group built around one of the best centers in NBA history, but I still feel the GOAT, one of the best players of all time in Scottie, and a nice group of role players along with a great coach could have beaten the Rockets.PS- For fun, I entered it on the Simmatch thing or whatever it is. I entered it 8x, and Bulls won 6 of the 8 times. I don't know what they base their stats on, but the numbers seemed fairly accurate to the situations and how the players did that year (MJ never scored over 30pts in any of the games). Again, means nothing, but when debates like this arise it is fun to do.</div>1- Your first comment doesn't always stand correct. Pistons of 04 were more complete, didn't have one superstar. Lakers had the best 2 guard in the league. He got absolutely shut down. Now I do realise this is one instance but I had to mention it.2- You say if the bulls were struggling Mj would take over. THe same could be said with hakeem. Infact, it'd be easier for the rockets to contain MJ then the bulls could do with Hakeem. Hakeem in my mind would dominate more then MJ could simply because the Bulls big men were all weak. Much weaker then the swingman of the rockets.3- MJ in 1995 wasn't the same guy he was in 1990. His defense had regressed, his offense had regressed and his effeciency had regressed also. Hakeem that year put up the most poins of his career.I'll say it again. When you have 1 superstar, one allstar, bunch of good role players who can make big shots and a good coach you're going to win the championship. Just because MJ is the goat doesn't mean he'll automatically lead his team to a championship.I just don't see the bulls getting away with that weak front court. Atleast in the 2nd 3 peat they had the greatest rebounder of all time. That 95 team had who?
I pick TD too. But I have to say that everyone saying Hakeem didn't play against quality is wrong. What about Charles Barkley, Karl Malone & John Stockton , Pat Eweing, David robinson , Shaquille O'neal & Penny Hardaway, Reggie Miller, the list goes on and on - alot of these guys are Hall of famers and NBA's top 50 all time players. He definitely played against Quality.But yes I choose TD for reason mentioned (other than the quality
Hakeem. No contest. Who was on his team for the 2 championships he got? Not a whole lot. Tim Duncan had a host of role players in 04-05, and in 02-03 he had some good role players along with ginobili surging. And obviously he had David Robinson in 98-99, a shortened season anyway.Hakeem has a superior offense for sure. The thing I wanna point out is his amazing footwork. I believe Okafor went to him to try and learn a few things(he probably didn't), but then got injured. Hakeem had probably the best footwork of any Center ever. I used to have a gif of when he faked out David Robinson like 3 times, and then layed it in, great example of his footwork.In my eyes both players have(or should have) 1 MVP. Kidd should've won the one Duncan did, and I actually think Olajuwon should have another one.Some of Hakeem The Dream's stats and accomplishments:2 Championships2 Finals MVPs2 DPOYs1 MVP6 All NBA First teams3 All NBA 2nd teams3 All NBA 3rd teams5 All NBA 1st Defensive teams12 time all starWon a gold medal in the 96 OlympicsA top 50 greatest playerHad a quadruple double(1 of 4 to ever do it)Shaq called him the greatest center everStats:21.8 PPG11.1 RPG2.5 APG51.3% FG71.2% FT2,162 steals3,830 blockshttp://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_bio.html<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In 1993-94 he had a storybook season, becoming the first player to be named NBA MVP, NBA Defensive Player of the Year and NBA Finals MVP in the same season. The following season he rallied the Rockets from a sixth seed in the playoffs to their second straight NBA crown, making Houston the fifth NBA franchise ever to win back-to-back titles.</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In 1986-87, Sampson began to suffer from injuries and the following season he was traded to the Golden State Warriors. Olajuwon's production simply increased as he developed into one of the game?s top big men. Olajuwon led the Rockets in 13 statistical categories, including scoring, rebounding, steals and blocked shots.</div><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>In a Life magazine story, San Antonio's David Robinson seemed perplexed. "Solve Hakeem?" said Robinson. "You don't solve Hakeem."Orlando's Shaquille O'Neal felt the same way after going down in a Finals sweep . "He's got about five moves, then four countermoves," said a stunned O'Neal. " That gives him 20 moves."</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ Sep 18 2006, 10:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1- Your first comment doesn't always stand correct. Pistons of 04 were more complete, didn't have one superstar. Lakers had the best 2 guard in the league. He got absolutely shut down. Now I do realise this is one instance but I had to mention it.2- You say if the bulls were struggling Mj would take over. THe same could be said with hakeem. Infact, it'd be easier for the rockets to contain MJ then the bulls could do with Hakeem. Hakeem in my mind would dominate more then MJ could simply because the Bulls big men were all weak. Much weaker then the swingman of the rockets.3- MJ in 1995 wasn't the same guy he was in 1990. His defense had regressed, his offense had regressed and his effeciency had regressed also. Hakeem that year put up the most poins of his career.I'll say it again. When you have 1 superstar, one allstar, bunch of good role players who can make big shots and a good coach you're going to win the championship. Just because MJ is the goat doesn't mean he'll automatically lead his team to a championship.I just don't see the bulls getting away with that weak front court. Atleast in the 2nd 3 peat they had the greatest rebounder of all time. That 95 team had who?</div>This is correct, although they couldn't do that to Wade in the playoffs this year or the previous. And remember, the one bright spot of the series was when Kobe had his big game and sent game to OT with a clutch 3. While that is just a little sprinkle in an overall bad series, you get the point that players like him and MJ can win games by taking over and hitting clutch shots.Again dude, MJ through his whole career, albeit his last 2 seaosns with Wizards, could be considered the most unstoppable offensive force in NBA history. He was the kind of player that could drop 50-60 on anyone he pleased, and would stare down and defeat anyone who decided to go head to head with him. Hakeem wouldn't have been any different.You can't really use 1995 MJ, as it was after a season and a half layoff and he was put onto a team that already had a new gameplan with players not used to MJ. Next seaosn they won 72 games and he averaged 30/7/4/2 on 50% shooting. He may not have been the same, but in many ways he was BETTER than he was when he was a HUGE stat filler. He developed an unstoppable fadeaway, great midrange game, and was stille xtremely athletic and smarter. Bulls had 2 superstars who proved they could blend together perfectly (both of them beign 2 of the greatest defenders you will see), and then you have other good role players. Now, was there role players better than the Rockets? No, but the perimeter defense and good contributions from role players would have made up for it.I know, they didn't have anyone outside of Perdue who could give Hakeem anything underneath, but I honestly feel the Bulls would have just outmatched the Rockets. And NOTHING from their run in the '90's really says otherwise.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Something-To-Say @ Sep 18 2006, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hakeem. No contest. Who was on his team for the 2 championships he got? Not a whole lot. Tim Duncan had a host of role players in 04-05, and in 02-03 he had some good role players along with ginobili surging. And obviously he had David Robinson in 98-99, a shortened season anyway.Hakeem has a superior offense for sure. The thing I wanna point out is his amazing footwork. I believe Okafor went to him to try and learn a few things(he probably didn't), but then got injured. Hakeem had probably the best footwork of any Center ever. I used to have a gif of when he faked out David Robinson like 3 times, and then layed it in, great example of his footwork.In my eyes both players have(or should have) 1 MVP. Kidd should've won the one Duncan did, and I actually think Olajuwon should have another one.Some of Hakeem The Dream's stats and accomplishments:2 Championships2 Finals MVPs2 DPOYs1 MVP6 All NBA First teams3 All NBA 2nd teams3 All NBA 3rd teams5 All NBA 1st Defensive teams12 time all starWon a gold medal in the 96 OlympicsA top 50 greatest playerHad a quadruple double(1 of 4 to ever do it)Shaq called him the greatest center everStats:21.8 PPG11.1 RPG2.5 APG51.3% FG71.2% FT2,162 steals3,830 blockshttp://www.nba.com/history/players/olajuwon_bio.html</div>I agree and one of Duncan's championships did come against a very weak(weak for a Finals team at least) New York Knicks team that didn't have Patrick Ewing. I wouldn't take away Hakeem's accomplishments because MJ didn't play. Hakeem was a great player and I bet he still would've won 1 or 2. MJ did ruin a lot of player's chances. Duncan wasn't playing against Jordan either so lets take away his championships too since those Bulls teams were better than what the Spurs have faced and probably would have beaten them.
ASUFan- nobody is necassarily taking away from Hakeem's accomplishmnets, but for TD to lead Spurs past the Lakers, a team who had won 3 straight 'chips, and eventually to championship with amazing Finals performance is the kind of thing that Hakeem never got to prove against the Bulls, which is why the Rockets' 2 championships are somewhat lost in translation. Duncan's Spurs also beat the champion Pistons in 2005. For Hakeem to beat the Knicks, a team that the Bulls knocked off more than once (and a team that almost lost to the Bulls without Jordan), just doesn't prove as much as if he would have done it against the Bulls. Whereas TD beat the three peat Lakers, and beat the reigning champs, the Pistons.Something to Say:Wanna play stats?3 Championships2 Regular season MVP's3 Finals MVP's (one of only 2 players in history to get a finals MVP in each of three trips to Finals)First player to be on an All-NBA and All-Defensive team in 1st 8 seasonsJust 5th player to be on all-NBA first team for first 8 seasonsAll defensive first team 6x, All defensive 2nd team 2xRookie of the YearCo-MVP of 2000 All Star GameNamed an NBA All Star 7 straight seasons (no ASG in 1999)Among active NBA players ranks fifth in career scoring average, fifth in career FG percentage (.507), ninth in rebounds (7,139) and seventh in blocked shots (1,488) Leads all players in the NBA in double-doubles over the last eight seasons with 445 double-doubles in 586 career games (this was before this season)Has 18 regular season 20-20 games and two triple-doubles In the postseason has nine 20-20 games and three triple-doubles Holds the record for the most blocks in an NBA Finals series (with 32 in 2003) and tied the record for most blocks in a single Finals game (with 8 vs. New Jersey on 6/15/03) Named to the All Tournament Team for the 2003 FIBA Americas Men's Qualifying Tournament after leading the U.S. Team to the gold medal Named the 2003 USA Basketball Male Athlete of the Year22.1PPG12RPG3.1APG2.4BPG50.5FG %As someone else said, they are very comparable statistically speaking, so it all comes down to the accolades where I feel Duncan has edge.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Hakeem. No contest. Who was on his team for the 2 championships he got? Not a whole lot. Tim Duncan had a host of role players in 04-05, and in 02-03 he had some good role players along with ginobili surging. And obviously he had David Robinson in 98-99, a shortened season anyway.</div>Hakeem had better players. I have no idea what you are talking about. Since you love satistics I'll give you some.In 1999 the spurs had 2 other double digit scorers outside of Duncan (Regular season)In 1994 The rockets had 4 other double digit scorers outside of Hakeem (Regular season)In the Playoffs the spurs had 3 double digit scorers outside of DuncanRockets had 4 in the 1994 playoffsIn 2003 Regular season The spurs had 3 double digit scorers outside of duncanIn 1995 Rockets had 4 (5 if you include drexler)In the playoffs of 2003 the spurs had 2 double digit scorers outside of duncanRockets had 4 in the 1995 playoffsSecondly Duncan deserved both mvp's. His numbers were amazing. In 2001-2002 the dude averaged 26/13/4 whilst leading his team to 58 wins in a much tougher conference. Kidd was playing in the east, I just don'e believe you can give it to someone who wins less games in a weaker conference. In 2002-2003 Duncan improved in every satistical area possible besides scoring. The man averaged 23/13/4/3 and led his team to 60 teams in a much tougher conference. His supporting cast wasn't great either. I tried to justify it with stats because you seem to love stats. Stats prove you wrong.
Agree with everything except the Kidd part, he was ROBBED. He replaced a good PG in Steph, and turned the team from lottery to a NBA Finals team. Duncan was amazing that year, but Kidd deserved it due to the massive improvement and new look of Nets. He brought basketball back to NJ.
