I thought this was a pretty good debate. I'd take TJ. He's been playing like he's posessed the last few games. You don't think he can score? Think again. He had 28 vs. the T-Wolves, and a few other great games lately. TJ is quicker, he can get to the rim better, and has a very nice step back jumper. His jumpshot is improving right in front of my eyes....Kirk can probably shoot the 18 footer and long ball better than TJ, and without a doubt is the better defender, but hey, TJ is the better passer too without a doubt in my eyes. It's incredible seeing him pick apart defenses..Hey, TJ even averages more points too...So I'd take TJ Ford :dribble:
T.J Ford gets my vote. He is a great playmaker and he can score at will.Kirk Hinrich is sick too, he can shoot almost every where....but I go with T.J
I'm taking Kirk Hinrich over TJ Ford any day of the week. Hinrich is a better shooter, a better scorer, and a better defensive player than TJ Ford is. I would take a better scorer and defensive player than TJ Ford. That is why I would take him over TJ Ford just about any day of the week.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 29 2006, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm taking Kirk Hinrich over TJ Ford any day of the week. Hinrich is a better shooter, a better scorer, and a better defensive player than TJ Ford is. I would take a better scorer and defensive player than TJ Ford. That is why I would take him over TJ Ford just about any day of the week.</div>I agree... its also no surprise that the first two responses were Raptors fans and took Ford. But I think Hinrich is a better point guard. He's better at managing games, and doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much as Ford. He's not as athletic and flashy and isn't as good of a passer but he is an underrated shooter and scorer and defender. But IMO Hinrich is better and more creative off the dribble and a much better point guard while running the floor. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves, for what reason, I don't know. Ford had a lot of publicity coming out of college and that makes you wonder had he not got hurt and missed the full year 1) would he be a better player? and 2) would he still be on the Bucks as their franchise PG?After saying all this I look at the stats and see Ford has the edge in most of them, but I'm still going to stay with Hinrich because even though his stats aren't as impressive, he also doesn't play as big of the role on the Bulls as Ford does with the Raptors. But I think potential wise, Ford has more, and will end up being the better player in the long run.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 29 2006, 11:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm taking Kirk Hinrich over TJ Ford any day of the week. Hinrich is a better shooter, a better scorer, and a better defensive player than TJ Ford is. I would take a better scorer and defensive player than TJ Ford. That is why I would take him over TJ Ford just about any day of the week.</div>Better scorer? I don't think so. TJ Can score a ton of points if he has to. He has a really good step back jumper, and he can drive on anyone. He averages more points too. You really underrate TJ, man. You had Udonis Haslem over him too...That's just ignorant.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Dec 29 2006, 12:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree... its also no surprise that the first two responses were Raptors fans and took Ford. But I think Hinrich is a better point guard. He's better at managing games, and doesn't turn the ball over nearly as much as Ford. He's not as athletic and flashy and isn't as good of a passer but he is an underrated shooter and scorer and defender. But IMO Hinrich is better and more creative off the dribble and a much better point guard while running the floor. I don't think he gets the credit he deserves, for what reason, I don't know. Ford had a lot of publicity coming out of college and that makes you wonder had he not got hurt and missed the full year 1) would he be a better player? and 2) would he still be on the Bucks as their franchise PG?After saying all this I look at the stats and see Ford has the edge in most of them, but I'm still going to stay with Hinrich because even though his stats aren't as impressive, he also doesn't play as big of the role on the Bulls as Ford does with the Raptors. But I think potential wise, Ford has more, and will end up being the better player in the long run.</div>What? TJ is better off the dribble. He's obviously the quicker pg here. He can drive on anyone. Huh? Hinrich plays in a half court system. TJ's the one who is great running the floor. I really don't think you know what you're talking about.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 11:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Better scorer? I don't think so. TJ Can score a ton of points if he has to. He has a really good step back jumper, and he can drive on anyone. He averages more points too. You really underrate TJ, man. You had Udonis Haslem over him too...That's just ignorant.</div>Hinrich has the range, Ford rarely takes 3 point shots. Only 26 in the whole season. Ford is as quick as anyone in the NBA, and he can get past just about anyone. I was very impressed with Ford's jump shots against Minny, he looked alot better shooting the ball than I've ever seen from him. Ford is clearly the better passer. Ford has also shown some leadership lately with Bosh out, he's been scoring the ball and dishing it out very nicely, and he's lead the Raps to 6 wins in the last 8 games. In the future I take Ford, but for now I have to take Hinrich, because of his scoring ability, defensive presence, and he's a pretty good passer..Ford better pure PG, and Hinrich is the better all-around player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What? TJ is better off the dribble. He's obviously the quicker pg here. He can drive on anyone. Huh? Hinrich plays in a half court system. TJ's the one who is great running the floor. I really don't think you know what you're talking about.</div>I dont? Just because Hinrich doesn't play in a running system doesn't make him better or worse in the open court. IMO Hinrich is very good when he runs the floor and finds open people just as good as anyone. I also never said TJ wasn't quicker. I said Hinrich is better off the first dribble, meaning his first step is better, and is more creative off of the dribble, nothing abuot quickness. I think you're also overrating TJ a little. Three turnovers a game isn't something I'd want out of my PG. I'll take Hinrich's 2 TO/G.Also say what you want about the scoring numbers, but Ford is the Raptors 2nd option, Hinrich is the Bulls 3rd or 4th at best. Haha it's really funny how pissed off you get when someone disagrees with you. Its ok to see both sides of the ball sometimes.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kingjamez @ Dec 29 2006, 12:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hinrich has the range, Ford rarely takes 3 point shots. Only 26 in the whole season. Ford is as quick as anyone in the NBA, and he can get past just about anyone. I was very impressed with Ford's jump shots against Minny, he looked alot better shooting the ball than I've ever seen from him. Ford is clearly the better passer. Ford has also shown some leadership lately with Bosh out, he's been scoring the ball and dishing it out very nicely, and he's lead the Raps to 6 wins in the last 8 games. In the future I take Ford, but for now I have to take Hinrich, because of his scoring ability, defensive presence, and he's a pretty good passer..Ford better pure PG, and Hinrich is the better all-around player.</div>Yeah, he's a pretty good passer, but Ford is the better passer. Scoring ability? Ford has scored more points this year. He's quicker and more athletic than Hinrich. Hinrich may shoot the long ball better, but hey; TJ has found his own way of scorin, and points are points. It doesn't really matter how you get them as long as you do get them. Like I said, TJ has a nice step back jumper, and his mid range has improved a ton. He's now a very potent mid range shooting threat.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, he's a pretty good passer, but Ford is the better passer. Scoring ability? Ford has scored more points this year. He's quicker and more athletic than Hinrich. Hinrich may shoot the long ball better, but hey; TJ has found his own way of scorin, and points are points. It doesn't really matter how you get them as long as you do get them. Like I said, TJ has a nice step back jumper, and his mid range has improved a ton. He's now a very potent mid range shooting threat.</div>Hinrich is a 3rd or 4th option, Ford is a 2nd or 3rd option. On any given night Hinrich could go for 25 or 30. I think the same could be said about Ford this year. Hinrich has the range, mid range game, and he can drive to the basket. Hinrich is athletic..for a white guy And yeah, Ford is clearly the better passer. Like yankshater said, Hinrich has got a good Assist/TO ratio, and he takes care of the ball.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're just talking out of your ass, man. TJ thrives in the open court, and that's why we brought him in here. We wanted to run alot more, and he is very good in the open court. TO's don't bother me. All star players create TO's. It just happens when you try to make plays. TJ isn't fully comfortable with his 12 new teammates too.</div>TJ is very good in the open court, that's when he can really make things happen. And I agree with you, when you get turnovers that shows your trying to make plays, and get things going. Hinrich is averaging less turnovers than Ford, but Ford's averaging a more assists.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Dec 29 2006, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I dont? Just because Hinrich doesn't play in a running system doesn't make him better or worse in the open court. IMO Hinrich is very good when he runs the floor and finds open people just as good as anyone. I also never said TJ wasn't quicker. I said Hinrich is better off the first dribble, meaning his first step is better, and is more creative off of the dribble, nothing abuot quickness. I think you're also overrating TJ a little. Three turnovers a game isn't something I'd want out of my PG. I'll take Hinrich's 2 TO/G.Also say what you want about the scoring numbers, but Ford is the Raptors 2nd option, Hinrich is the Bulls 3rd or 4th at best. Haha it's really funny how pissed off you get when someone disagrees with you. Its ok to see both sides of the ball sometimes.</div>You're just talking out of your ass, man. TJ thrives in the open court, and that's why we brought him in here. We wanted to run alot more, and he is very good in the open court. Hinrich has the better first dribble? Okay???? I don't even think that's true; even if it is, TJ is quicker and better at finding people off the dribble anyway.TO's don't bother me. All star players create TO's. It just happens when you try to make plays. TJ isn't fully comfortable with his 12 new teammates too.Yeah, you could use that card, but Kirk is the pg. He has the ball in his hands for most of the Bull's offensive posessions. You can't use that 3rd option crap because he usuall always has the ball in his hands, and it's his fault if he's not able to score as much as TJ.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 11:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, he's a pretty good passer, but Ford is the better passer. Scoring ability? Ford has scored more points this year. He's quicker and more athletic than Hinrich. Hinrich may shoot the long ball better, but hey; TJ has found his own way of scorin, and points are points. It doesn't really matter how you get them as long as you do get them. Like I said, TJ has a nice step back jumper, and his mid range has improved a ton. He's now a very potent mid range shooting threat.</div>But thats also because Ford gets more looks than Hinrich. As I said before Hinrich is his teams third or fourth option and still gets nearly as many PPG as Ford, which is why that stat is overrated in this instance. Ford has been playing without Bosh so the ball has been in his hands much more and the team has been his. Hinrich has Deng, Gordon, and Nocioni, all being pretty good scorers, with Gordon a great one, while Bosh has been out Ford has had a bunch of mediocre/average/decent scorers so he has taken control of that team. Also I would like to add in for the record that I never took anything away from Ford's quickness. IMO he is one of the quickest players in the league. His first step isn't anything to call home about, but his speed is what allows him to get by people off the dribble. Hinrich is better off of the dribble, and he can get by people solely on his dribbling ability and what speed he has, as opposed to Ford who can just fly by. I still think Hinrich is the better player. The defense is what sets him apart from Ford. Ford IS BETTER on the offensive end, but the margin there is so much lesser than the margin on the defensive side, which is why I take Hinrich. On teams with Bosh and Ben Gordon, where they are the main scorers, its not important for the point guard to be a prolific scorer as it is for them to be good defenders.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 12:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're just talking out of your ass, man. TJ thrives in the open court, and that's why we brought him in here. We wanted to run alot more, and he is very good in the open court. Hinrich has the better first dribble? Okay???? I don't even think that's true; even if it is, TJ is quicker and better at finding people off the dribble anyway.TO's don't bother me. All star players create TO's. It just happens when you try to make plays. TJ isn't fully comfortable with his 12 new teammates too.Yeah, you could use that card, but Kirk is the pg. He has the ball in his hands for most of the Bull's offensive posessions. You can't use that 3rd option crap because he usuall always has the ball in his hands, and it's his fault if he's not able to score as much as TJ.</div>Hinrich is easily the better scorer of the two of these, just because Ford is averaging one more point per game this season means nothing. Hinrich can shoot the three, he can shoot the mid range and attack the basket to score. Hinrich can use his shot to set up his driving ability. Ford can't do this, he has to use his dribbling ability to set up for his shot that is unreliable.To add to that, just because he doesn't score as much per game as Ford does, does not mean he isn't a better scorer. Through 29 games, Ford has taken 50 more shots than Hinrich which comes out to Ford taking about 13 shots per game, where as Hinrich takes 11 shots per game. Should Hinrich shoot as much as Ford, he would be averaging as much if not more points per game than Ford. Furthermore, a good majority of those points have come in Bosh's absence like yankshater said, he wasn't averaging that many when Ford was there. As a second option he barely scored as many points per game as what Hinrich scores in a balanced offense where the ball moves around the perimeter alot.You are also wrong by saying that just because Kirk Hinrich is the point guard he has the ball in his hands all the time. He never has the ball in his hands as much as TJ Ford does, because he is in a type of offense where they want the ball to move around, and the players to move around. He is in an offense where they want balanced scoring from the team, and everyone to try to contribute. I would take Hinrich because simply, he is a better scorer, better defensive player, and I just don't put alot of merit into players that rack up assists because in this day and age the team with that point guard does not win the championship.sidenote: I would also suggest you not say that ignorant remark again, or every post you make from here on out I will completely tear up.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 29 2006, 10:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm taking Kirk Hinrich over TJ Ford any day of the week. Hinrich is a better shooter, a better scorer, and a better defensive player than TJ Ford is. I would take a better scorer and defensive player than TJ Ford. That is why I would take him over TJ Ford just about any day of the week.</div> Valo what are you saying??? Let me break it down:TJ Ford averages 15 Points a gameKirk Hinrich averages 14 points a gameTJ Ford has had 6 20+ point games this season (btw while having 7+ assists per game :dribble: )Kirk Hinrich has had 7 20+ point games this season Kirk has had 12 15+ point games this seasonTJ has had 15 15+ point games this seasonTJ has done that all while averaging a whole 8 assists per game. As for Yankshater213 who said that he gets more looks dan Hinrich, he has only shot the ball 50 times more than him this season, (thats 1.7 shots more per game). TJ rebounds more, and his field goal percentage is higher. He has done all this while getting his teammates involved. As for leadership, Ford is obviously better, leading his team to the top of the Atlantice, without Bosh. If you ask me, Ford is obviously the better player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Dec 29 2006, 12:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Valo what are you saying??? Let me break it down:TJ Ford averages 15 Points a gameKirk Hinrich averages 14 points a gameTJ Ford has had 6 20+ point games this season (btw while having 7+ assists per game :dribble: )Kirk Hinrich has had 7 20+ point games this season Kirk has had 12 15+ point games this seasonTJ has had 15 15+ point games this seasonTJ has done that all while averaging a whole 8 assists per game. As for Yankshater213 who said that he gets more looks dan Hinrich, he has only shot the ball 50 times more than him this season, (thats 1.7 shots more per game). TJ rebounds more, and his field goal percentage is higher. He has done all this while getting his teammates involved. As for leadership, Ford is obviously better, leading his team to the top of the Atlantice, without Bosh. If you ask me, Ford is obviously the better player.</div>Let me break it down once more: Hinrich is easily the better scorer of the two of these, just because Ford is averaging one more point per game this season means nothing. Hinrich can shoot the three, he can shoot the mid range and attack the basket to score. Hinrich can use his shot to set up his driving ability. Ford can't do this, he has to use his dribbling ability to set up for his shot that is unreliabe. To add to that, just because he doesn't score as much per game as Ford does, does not mean he isn't a better scorer. Through 29 games, Ford has taken 385 more shots compared to Hinrich's 335 which comes out to Ford taking about 13.3 shots per game, where as Hinrich takes 11.5 shots per game. Should Hinrich shoot as much as Ford, he would be averaging as much if not more points per game than Ford. Furthermore, a good majority of those points have come in Bosh's absence like yankshater said, he wasn't averaging that many when Ford was there. As a second option he barely scored as many points per game as what Hinrich scores in a balanced offense where the ball moves around the perimeter alot, and he is pretty much a third or fourth option.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Dec 29 2006, 01:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>But thats also because Ford gets more looks than Hinrich. As I said before Hinrich is his teams third or fourth option and still gets nearly as many PPG as Ford, which is why that stat is overrated in this instance. Ford has been playing without Bosh so the ball has been in his hands much more and the team has been his. Hinrich has Deng, Gordon, and Nocioni, all being pretty good scorers, with Gordon a great one, while Bosh has been out Ford has had a bunch of mediocre/average/decent scorers so he has taken control of that team. Also I would like to add in for the record that I never took anything away from Ford's quickness. IMO he is one of the quickest players in the league. His first step isn't anything to call home about, but his speed is what allows him to get by people off the dribble. Hinrich is better off of the dribble, and he can get by people solely on his dribbling ability and what speed he has, as opposed to Ford who can just fly by. I still think Hinrich is the better player. The defense is what sets him apart from Ford. Ford IS BETTER on the offensive end, but the margin there is so much lesser than the margin on the defensive side, which is why I take Hinrich. On teams with Bosh and Ben Gordon, where they are the main scorers, its not important for the point guard to be a prolific scorer as it is for them to be good defenders.</div>Hinrich is the goddamn pg. He can be whatever option he wants to be. Okay, first step? What are you even talking about? TJ can blow by anyone, and that's a fact. That's all that matters. Eh...I think offense is alot more important for pg's since they are the one running the offense for their whole team usually...Good points though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Dec 29 2006, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Let me break it down once more: Hinrich is easily the better scorer of the two of these, just because Ford is averaging one more point per game this season means nothing. Hinrich can shoot the three, he can shoot the mid range and attack the basket to score. Hinrich can use his shot to set up his driving ability. Ford can't do this, he has to use his dribbling ability to set up for his shot that is unreliabe. To add to that, just because he doesn't score as much per game as Ford does, does not mean he isn't a better scorer. Through 29 games, Ford has taken 385 more shots compared to Hinrich's 335 which comes out to Ford taking about 13.3 shots per game, where as Hinrich takes 11.5 shots per game. Should Hinrich shoot as much as Ford, he would be averaging as much if not more points per game than Ford. Furthermore, a good majority of those points have come in Bosh's absence like yankshater said, he wasn't averaging that many when Ford was there. As a second option he barely scored as many points per game as what Hinrich scores in a balanced offense where the ball moves around the perimeter alot, and he is pretty much a third or fourth option.</div>Two shots more per game at most would get him what? like 2 Points extra? and what makes you think that he will score those two shots he takes? saying that Ford takes about 1-2 shots more in a game is ridiculous, and considering his average, he would probably miss them both. And if Ford averaging one more point thant Hinrich means nothing, than obviously Ford averaging around 1-2 more shots per game is then nothing, so you've jsut contradicted yourself. Also, about him scoring more without Bosh, TJ scored 220 points in the month of November (while Bosh was still there), and in the month of December, Ford has scored 239, (which averages out to a grand total of 2 more points per game, while Bosh wasn't there) See, that most people don't get is that Ford involves everyone in the game, and while it looks like he is taking over the game, he actually contributes to the flow of the game with his points, while assisting so many other.
Its obvious that CB4 is a homer and has a problem with people disagreeing with him based on the fact that since I disagree with him I am apparently talking out of my ass, even though both myself and valo bring up some extremely good points as to why Hinrich is the superior point guard. I don't feel the need to defend my position anymore as both valo and I have argued that Hinrich is better and believe I have proven my case. CB4 next time you're getting in an arguement about something I'd recommend not telling people that they're talking out of their ass (especially when they're not), because thats no different than calling someone a dipshit because of their opinions.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Dec 29 2006, 02:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Its obvious that CB4 is a homer and has a problem with people disagreeing with him based on the fact that since I disagree with him I am apparently talking out of my ass, even though both myself and valo bring up some extremely good points as to why Hinrich is the superior point guard. I don't feel the need to defend my position anymore as both valo and I have argued that Hinrich is better and believe I have proven my case. CB4 next time you're getting in an arguement about something I'd recommend not telling people that they're talking out of their ass (especially when they're not), because thats no different than calling someone a dipshit because of their opinions.</div>No, I said you were talking out of your ass because some of your points were just random, and not valid at all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Dec 29 2006, 01:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Hinrich is the goddamn pg. He can be whatever option he wants to be. Okay, first step? What are you even talking about? TJ can blow by anyone, and that's a fact. That's all that matters. Eh...I think offense is alot more important for pg's since they are the one running the offense for their whole team usually...Good points though.</div>Holy jesus I know Hinrich is the PG. He can do what he wants but he doesn't because he understands that there are better scorers than him on the floor, which is why I'm saying his scoring average is lower (in relation to Ford's)I also think its funny that you're making the 1 ppg difference out to be so much bigger than it actually is. You're talking like these two guys are on completely different levels of play.
