Update: No Kobe or PJax Tomorrow Night

<div class="quote_poster">shapecity Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">

No excuses for the Warriors, they better win this game.</div>

Thanks for the update. But even if the had a healthy Kobe and PJax I would still say:

"No excuses for the Warriors, they better win this game."

Am I optimistic or what?

 

Looks like the Lakers are going to win. On a side note, Bynum played great tonight, judging by the boxscore.

 

Dang. Maybe the Warriors should have drafted Bynum instead of Ike? Hehe. I don't know how serious I am about that question, but anyway, one thing is certain either way, and that is the Warriors better do a better job than the Suns on the boards. The Lakers killed the Suns on the boards. I am sure the Lakers will look to do the same against Murphy and Dunleavy tomorrow night. Is Murphy cleared to play tomorrow actually? But yeah, this is already getting heated up, and the Warriors haven't played a game yet. I am starting to get scared of Bynum, haha...man... I don't know I didn't see the game, and maybe going up against the Suns who don't have any legitimate big players will help his case(or his cause to put up big stats), but still...

 

Bynum intended to go to the same school that Emeka Okafor and Josh Boone went to and that school is well known for defensive big guys. So I'm sure he's going to turn out well if the right vets and coaches are around him to help him work on his big man polish. He could be like a Dwight Howard type impact, except less athletic or more like a Magloire or Shaq. He's got size, great mobility, nice wingspan, good hands. The only thing he is is raw. I'm not sure he's that consistent yet, but he showed great flashes in preseason.

He could be a Dasagna Diop in some ways. He won't be as bad, but he may not develop as intended.

 

i said it then

I say it now. WE blew it not drafting Bynum. Once again, the Warriors chicken s**t method of drafting always avoiding the high upside risk and taking the so called safe pick or picking for need hurts them. WE will watch GReen, Bynum and Granger all be stars while Diogu gives us flashes of what could be. Maybe Jabar has worked wonders with him, but i recall the film of him pre-draft and it was obvious he had skills and athleticsm.

I was on the golf course ..... just in the turn at the clubhouse and the hot dog guy had the draft on tv..... I pleaded outloud with the tv.... don't draft Ike, draft Bynum if you are going for a post guy. I walked away pissed and had a terrible back nine.

It just seemed so obvious, his size, and athletiscm and the WArriors "needs" at the time to take a risk. I guess you could say taking the severely undersized Ike was the bigger risk.

Disappointment.

Bring on the season ... I need a blow out tomorrow night and Ike to outplay Bynum to clear this fog.

 

Dude, you watch one game and get super pissed off that we got Ike?

I'd still take Ike over Bynum anyday. This is a breakout game for Bynum, against the super soft interior of the Suns. Did you not see Ike score 27 on the Wallace's last year? Or his 25 pt game on 7 shots in the pre-season? He even had a 38 pt game in pre-season last year.

Ike would eat Bynum in the paint offensively at this point in time. Sure Bynum has more potential, but you never know how it's going to pan out.

 

well

I guess it is simply only being able to see the preseason on paper and Ike. I have seen Bynum in 3 preseason games that were televised down here as well as tonight. I did say flashes, such as the piston game or the last preseason game.

Yeah today, Ike who is what 4 years older than him? Ike could probably get the best of him, though i wouldnt say work him. But in the long run, by the time Bynum is 4 years older he will be a star while Ike will still be a frustration. A star, because of the lack of depth at center as well as for his skills.

 

<div class="quote_poster">boogielew Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">But in the long run, by the time Bynum is 4 years older he will be a star while Ike will still be a frustration. A star, because of the lack of depth at center as well as for his skills.</div>

Why would Ike be a frustration? And you said "still be" a frustration. I don't think he's been one at all, I think our angst over the whole drafting Ike over Bynum thing is affecting your opinion on Ike. In a half court game if he was a starter (in this point in time), he'd average 15pts 7 reb no question. Relax and just wait.

Btw, don't consider a good game by Bynum tomorrow a good indicator of how well he'll do. After all, even I could score a bunch on Dun+Murph. Air molecules provide more defense than those 2.

 

What AnimeFanatic said. I would have liked any of Bynum, Green, or Granger, but Ike is the most nba ready who can give you blocked shots, offensive rebounding, some passing, free throw %, high fg %, some ballhandling, lots of scoring in the post and some shots from midrange to deep. He's really tough and hardnosed on both ends, not like our other big dudes who play more like small forwards and play only one end. Ike plays partly like a true center with some mix of small forward in his game. He is weak defensively guarding quicker players, but at least he goes after shots rather than letting a guy score at the rim.

If we went raw recruit it would have been anyone's guess how they would turn out under the Warriors management. And with any raw recruit, you need a foundation in place long before to show the rook the right way to ball. I don't think we had that. Granger would have been safer, more upside IMO, but he hasn't done much so far.

Let's wait and see if Andrew Bynum is all that. I think he would have been equally as good of a choice if we're looking for potential big man candiates for the center position, but he wasn't as sure of a thing like Chris Kaman or Yao Ming who could score with either hand to begin with. I like more of a sure thing + upside.

I think Ike has some upside and some new things we haven't seen yet. Now the Dunleavy pick was absolutely dreadful. He was the safest thing we could have taken at the time of the shallow 2002 draft because he was consensus top 3. He was good at a lot of things but not dominant at any one thing. At least I can believe that Ike would be dominant in the post like Zach Randolph. Very few post players in the NBA, but if you got one, you can do more things rather than shy away from the basket. I don't know if Andrew Bynum is going to be better than let's say POB... or even Ike. Improved Dasagana Diop would be interesting comparrison (better hands, better scoring, better rebounding, not as many blocked shots though)

We'll see, the kid is about as old as Ellis. There could be some inconsistency and rawness to his game that could get him benched. But a guy like Ike or Granger could be devastating once they learn all the plays and work on their weaknesses.

 

I love high school prospects but only if they're real polished. I like Monta Ellis so far. He has problems making decisions with the ball, but he is an absolute fantastic offensive player going one-on-one. That's a start.

Most kids like JR. Smith or Dorrell Wright can't do anything with the ball. Andrew Bynum is going to be solid, but not sure if he's going to be dominating. I'd have to see his game over time. But because he's so young, great hands, very big and mobile, he has a chance to become something big. But only if he's developed right and he wants to become the best.

 

As i said, I am frustrated. You guys talk as if Ike is a bonifide all star. Ike has had what 3-4 quality games so far in the nba. Not counting summer league and preseason blow ups.

Now i agree, Monty was a clown and clearly stunted all our young guys growth. So maybe treat last season adn the season before as lost, wasted years and hopefully Nellie can teach the guy and give him some confidence.

It seemed like Monty constantly usurped any confidence a player could have. He seemed to toy with Pietrus and Ike with inconsistencies in expectations as well as minutes. Biedrins also got this treatment as well as Ellis.

Speaking of Dorrell Wright. I read that the kid is now 6' 10" and still growing. I think he has gotten the DArko treatment under Riley, but we will see superstar potential come out from WRight this season.

Oh, and you said Ike was ready to roll right out of college. Well if that was true what happened? Monty sure must not have felt that way given how limited his minutes were. I agree Ellis straight out of high school looks more polished than Ike has thus far.

I look forward to Ike proving me wrong and becomes a consistent force game in and game out.

 

Yeah, boogielew, I don't really think Ike has been given a fair shake yet:

-- Injured for the first part of last year
-- Misplayed at center, put in a position to fail
-- Surrounding cast is mediocre to flat out bad (especially with JRich and Baron injured)
-- Terrible head coach in Monty
-- Warriors did not often run isolation plays for Ike to score, even after he had proved that he could

Bottom line is he has less than one year in the NBA and he's already shown he's capable of putting up some big numbers (if inconsistent thusfar), and he's slowly improving on his weaknesses from early last year (personal fouls, defense, rebounding, setting good screens, conditioning). He still needs to work more on anticipating doubleteams and passing back out to the perimeter. But I'm very happy with this pick and what he has shown, I just hope Nelson's system doesn't doom him to short minutes and irregular positions, because given 25+ minutes a night at PF I think he could be real solid, 25/8 or so.

 

What hiRez said.

Now I'm worried about how our big men will fare in a small lineup.

Of all this blame on guys like Montgomery, Foyle, Fisher, Dunleavy, our draft picks, let's not forget who put them there in the first place. It was Chris Mullin and the fact he doesn't know how to play GM because he has no experience, brains, and knows nothing outside of building a real team. Let's go even further and figure out who put Mullin there. It was Cohan and Rowell. These guys know nothing about basketball, except how to make money off its fans because they know the fans will stick with it. Well some. I'm sure they lost a ton of fanbase. Run TMC wasn't even that good when it mattered, but we'd kill to be where we were back then.

This whole franchise is messed up so anyone is going to be frustrated, be frustrated at the blind guy leading the other blind guy. That be Cohan and Rowell being the first two blind guys and them hiring bad gms and coaches into the franchise who in turn pick the wrong lineups and overpay for crap. Even our best players cannot close in the 4th because of some liability, lack of game/experience, and we have no center. How do we deal with that? Teams without centers, all-around star talent, or experience tend to lose.

Until we have a strong foundation of players with skill in their position, it's probably not wise to go super super risky or we might wind up with some bust like Tskitishvilli or some high schooler not ready to play. Take for instance the question if Dorrell Wright was so good, why is he in the dog house a la Darko? He's not ready to play that is why. I'd rather have a guy like Ike or a Kirk Hinrich or a Ben Gordon who are ready to play because they proved themselves. It's too hard to land a Garnett, a Kobe or a Dwight Howard these days because some of these kids, who aren't as good to begin with, go for money rather than work on their games in college and with a real college team. Instead they think they hot against competition in high school.

Right now, boogielew, you are starting to sound like me 3 years ago. We should have picked Amare, we should have picked Amare. I was right, but nobody is really going to take that risk the next time if Amare was actually the second coming of Kwame Brown. So regardless of who is right or wrong, it's all speculation on our part unless we have to be in the know like scouts and gms and guys who have to be right for a living. I used to tell everyone that would listen what we should have done, but it's easier said in hindsight because that's the evidence to back up my hunch. I'm just here because I want to hear what the rest of the sewing circle has to say and I'm sure we're all right and wrong together

 

I'm actually becoming excited about O'Bryant

When a coach like Nelson who isn't too keen on many bigmen says:

"O'Bryant holds the key to our future. That guy is going to be very good. You get a 7-footer talented like that, who understands, is bright ... the only thing he doesn't have is experience. He's never been in great shape before -- his conditioning, he doesn't even know what it is to get to the next level -- and he's got about three levels to go. Once he gets to there and his body matures, he's going to be sensational."

You can't help but be a little optimistic. He's a legit 7 footer with a good frame, range, and awesome wingspan thats as big as Yao's. What I find most appealing is that Nelson sas he's "bright" and "understands".

 

<div class="quote_poster">AnimeFANatic Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm actually becoming excited about O'Bryant

When a coach like Nelson who isn't too keen on many bigmen says:

"O'Bryant holds the key to our future. That guy is going to be very good. You get a 7-footer talented like that, who understands, is bright ... the only thing he doesn't have is experience. He's never been in great shape before -- his conditioning, he doesn't even know what it is to get to the next level -- and he's got about three levels to go. Once he gets to there and his body matures, he's going to be sensational."

You can't help but be a little optimistic. He's a legit 7 footer with a good frame, range, and awesome wingspan thats as big as Yao's. What I find most appealing is that Nelson sas he's "bright" and "understands".</div>

I agree. But one tiny detail: Yao has a short wingspan actually. He is 7'5, 7'6, but has the wingspan of a 7'2 or 7'1 (I forget actual number but we can look this up later).

O'Bryant is 7 feet tall and has a much longer wingspan than he is tall.

 

ACtually you do Bash Mullin a lot and i donj't get that either. LEt's see GM's without experience are pretty common these days. Isiah, BIrd, Jordan, Dumars, Paxson, etc... aside from Zeke who ran toronto these guys all are in their first gigs too and i know i am missing quite a few, the guy from ucla that used to be in denver cant remember his name, replaced by krystowiak i think.

So what has Mullin done to deserve the bashing? Ok he is inexperienced, but so are the people i mentioned.

He inherited most of this roster including foyle and dunleavy as you mentioned.

His moves :

Well, he has done well in the draft i think, MP has not blossomed as expected but is not a complete bust, was not a consensus pick for us at the time.

Biedrins, still very young seems like he is finally on the verge of being highly productive, if i remember we were exstatic to see him fall to us past philly.

Ike, jury still out, as he was mismanaged by Monty... and Ellis looks to be a steal

POB, was a conensus pick for need and skills that he brings.

So he has done ok with the draft, and no i am not one of those saying with hindsight to draft amare or gooden for that matter, based on the team make up and how touted dunleavy was, i was excited with the pick at the day of the draft. Sure i wish we had amare now.

So we can obviously bash him for his signings. Foyle has been an absolute disaster. Given the fact we did a sign and trade for DAmpier and were left without a big man, he basically panicked in his first move. I would give him a mulligan except it really is a huge f-up.

Fisher, a blind man could see this was a tremendously idiotic move. Signing a one dimensional 6 foot tall 2guard without any post presence mostly because he came from a winning franchise to supposedly teach us winning ways was a joke. However, he has corrected this mistake brilliantly getting 3 expiring contracts. So here is Mullin's mulligan.

Murph/J-rich, you might argue, but based on the growth and work ethic each player had shown it seemed logical to me to lock them both up. Getting a steal of a deal with j-rich and slightly over paying for Murph .. a bit too long perhaps for Murph.

Dunleavy, yeah i know..... never should have locked him up, i agree, he should have waited like he is doing with MP and see how Dunleavy fares, but that said Dunleavy could prove at least not to be a disaster.
Monty, a horrendous signing. If he wanted to go with a young inexperienced at the NBA level coach why not go with Terry Porter, MArio Elie etc. Mistake corrected with Nelson.
So basically, Foyle still haunts us and Dunelavy to some extent, the rest of his mistakes corrected in signings.

What am i not seeing that you blame everything on Mullin?

Trades, Obviously we got a steal in the BAron deal. Most of the other trades seem pretty insignificant, c-rob for trade exception, the skita trade, the dallas trade for laettner etc, carbarkapa from phoenix.

So i dont get where you can blame this whole supposed mess on Mullin. Aside from the Foyle disaster and if you want to call the
Dunleavy extension bad, i think he has done well for the moves he hasnt made. Ike/murph for ARtest, HArrington deal etc.... I think Mullin is doing fine thus far.

We have'nt had a center fall in our laps like Howard or Bogut. Unless you consider Magliore a missed opportunity what other centers have been available? DArko?

 

boogie,

while mullin did a good job drafting i think, we're going to have an awful hard time trying to keep them. we're borderline cap right now, and with extensions coming up for rookies what is Mullin going to do?

I have a love hate relationship with Mullin. Does some fantastic things and does some really really awful things as well. I do know that if he wasn't GM we wouldn't have Nelson. So I'm content for now....

 

I agree you can blame Ownership. But i don't get where you put this all on Mullin. If a deal isnt out there i think he has done well to not make a panic move just to make a move.

You mention game experience. I have been complaining for years about that. Why Mussleman refused to play Dunleavy and Pietrus in their rookie years and cut minutes down playing the vets in front of them. Then Monty comes along and refuses to play the young guys to get them this game experience so he can roll out, d davis, c-rob, fisher and all the other useless vets that have no future with us. So here we are complaining that our guys have no game experience.

Biedrins, Pietrus, Dunelavy,ike and Ellis etc all could be much further along in their developement if they had a coach putting them on the floor to gain that experience. I am not sure i put the blame of that on Mullin.

You mention Dorrell Wright. I disagree about him being ready. He is/was unfortunate enough to be, like Darko and J o'neal in the past, on a veteran winning team where minutes are hard to come by. His first season was spent on the IR.

I always found it frustrating that for example Boston who is young like us would play its young guys jefferson, gomes etc...and get them on the job experience while we "protected" our young guys.

Anyways..... You bash Mullin, i don't think he that bad, in fact i think he has been just what this franchise is, always conservative. Paxson and Dumars took big risks and have had success. I you would be bashing Mullin if he had a Duncan fall into our laps like SA, or Lebron for another rookie gm, man i cant think of names this morning, the guy from duke. The Warriors have not had much luck at all over the years, from being ripped off by Stern in the 80's with his "Draft" ewing year. To getting the first pick in a weak weak draft and getting Joe SMith. Luck has not gone our way. The one time it did ( WEbber) we threw it away.

Cant wait for tonight. For IKe to shine and the team to blow out the lakers.

 

Anime, i get the fact we are up against the wall, but again aside from the Foyle blunder and the dunleavy extension, both mistakes....what should he have done?

I wish he had Allan Houston'd Foyle's deal.