Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Rastapopoulos, Jul 16, 2020.
i have and i think we are closer to being on the same page.
Even if the destructive ones will abuse a system, is that a reason not to implement a system that will help those who want/need help? Especially if that system would require fewer resources than our current process?
well of course the easy answer is no. But i think this os more complicated than that. I think the alternative response would be, should we settle for a solution that only addresses a portion of the problems, or should we continue to work harder for a solution that helps all?
will a system actually work if a percentage of it is using and abusing it?
Again, i think Portland is an anomaly because i believe we have a far greater percentage of youth who want anarchy instead of help. So for Portland, because of this anomaly, I question the success of models that don't address this portion of the problem and i haven't seen a model that does.
Need it be binary? Can't we do both? Can't we implement a presumably imperfect solution that only addresses a portion of the problem--or even multiple incomplete solutions--while also continuing to work harder for additional solutions that help all?
With regards to Portland? I think so. Ive had too many direct discussions with youth on the streets wanting to burn it all down. With regards to Portland, if we do not address this first, I think the proposed system will be abused to the point of failure. When i say failure, meaning it would end up costing more than we are currently spending, because a large portion of the funds will be wasted on these types.
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So then, this is where we are in fundamental disagreement. And that's OK--at least we've been able to communicate effectively to find that point.
I will never be on board with a "perfect solutions only" mindset...especially when it comes to an issue as complex as homelessness. "Perfect is the enemy of good" is one of my favorite maxims, and I absolutely believe it applies here. Like I said above--even if we're not fixing everything, it's better to improve something than to do nothing. That is a hill from which I'll never be moved.
What if the proposed fix helps one person but enables two more to jump in and take advantage and abuse it. Is it still worth it to fix one but create two more problems?
I see the potential to take a step forward but them take two steps back. Again this is a Portland focus only due to the large percentage who want to burn it all down. I fully believe anyone and everyone would jump on board and compound the abuse or where we very likely might enable more people to be destructive than it helps people get out of the situation the are in.
Is it still a positive then? Don't the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few?
People move here for the cultist/anarchist environment ww have enabled. Creating systems without addressing this will further compound this issue in my mind, to the point that for every one person we help we create two or three more problems. Is that still worth it?
There are a lot of ifs and assumptions there that may or may not be true--but the only way to know for sure whether any effort will have a positive impact is to try it. Try something. And continue analyzing and evaluating and refining.
100% agree but i think the alternative is based on a bunch of assumptions as well. Assuming people wont abuse the system and costs will not increase, etc.
I think the point i have is it feels like every solution dismisses this portion of the issue and this portion may cause failure to the system. Id love to see any model or any advocate of the model address this. Doesn't mean they have a solution, but not dismiss it as irrelevant. To me, and many many others, its very relevant. If people feel like the money they spend on aid is going to be abused, they wont vote to continue to pay into it.
Not based on conversations ive had with people anyhow.
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There is no fool proof solution to any single problem or issue that doesn't open up to the potential for abuse or mismanagement. To expect perfection seems like a way to just advocate for not helping the majority in need. Might as well just eliminate all social welfare systems that aim to help the poor and out of luck. Fuck them people because of some angry youth?
I believe that's the standard Republican Party platform on social issues.
Except I don't assume any of that. The only assumption that I make is that trying something is better than doing nothing. I'd rather try and fail than not try at all.
See this is where i have to bow out of this convo now. Instead of others actually joining the convo, they prefer to make snyde remarks…
So with that said i enjoyed our convo @PtldPlatypus and @Phatguysrule
but now the peanut gallery is cackling so im gonna move on.
my assumption is based on actual interactions with homeless youth in portland. Its a valid assumption. all good though. Appreciate the convo.
I hope I'm not the conversation killer. I'm too Covid-addled to add much to the conversation. I've gone back several pages and I still can't find what the basic proposals are. Just ignore me. I'll go back to sleep now.
Don't worry, it's me. Some people don't like their takes spelled out in other terms. Unless, of course, I misinterpreted the stance that it is best to do nothing until the perfect solution could be found, because doing something not perfect could be abused by a few.
One of several. Honestly though. You are wrong in your statement. I have conservative republican views, but by no means subscribe to what was insinuated and frankly, i find it no different than saying all asians are poor drivers or all blacks are criminals. Or all hispanics are illegal aliens.
Painting all republicans as one is no better. I don't vote party line and i know many republicans who don't vote party lines.
Painting us all the same as trump and desantis is no more help to the discussion than me saying the things i just said above.
You however are a rare participant in the typical snyde comments i regularly get from others whenever i attempt to converse on such topics. So you sir, are excused.
I still need to bow out though as i see where this is going and im not gonna be a contributor to… nuff said.
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