Derek Jeter:RO: .361RISP: .376RISP2: .425David Ortiz: RO: .305RISP: .304RISP2: .288As you can see, as the pressure increases, Jeter gets better. With Runners On (RO) he hits a great .361. When those Runners are In Scoring Position (RISP) he hits an even better .376. When there are 2 outs and there are RISP, he hits an astounding .425!Ortiz on the other hand, gets worse as the pressure increases. He hits a good .305 when there are runners on. He slips slightly when those runners are in scoring position. But when the heat is on, 2 outs, runners in scoring position, and Papi knows that if he doesn't get a hit, then the inning's over, he becomes very very average at .288.Who is the AL MVP?
You forgot to compare a lot more other stats.OrtizAVG .291 | HR 41 | RBI 110 | OBP .398 | SLG .636 JeterAVG .346 | HR 9 | RBI 68 | OBP .420 | SLG .487I would say that is a lot more important. And people remember Ortiz hitting all those walk-offs.
Yeah, I think it was ESPN, that had an article calling him the greatest clutch player in sports history, which is accuarate I think. He is simple amazing. 8 Walkoffs in his career, 2 in the playoffs, both in 2004...when they won the WS. If Ortiz gets robbed of another MVP, I think Steinbrenner is up to something, lol.Greatest Clutch Player Ever: David Ortiz(Read the sig)
i think ortiz is more clutch, but jeter overall is a better postseason hitter. not because of skill, but because of the fact that jeter naturally goes the other way (insideout swing) while Ortiz is a pull hitter. in the playoffs, there are better pitchers, which are harder to pull, so jeter will succeed moer often. needless to say, both are very clutch, and very good under pressure.
No doubt, the inside-out swing of Jeter is deadly. But Ortiz can hit a walk-off just like that. The title greatest clutch player in sports history rightfully belongs to David Ortiz.http://nflcentral.net/forum/index.php?showtopic=7175Here, I made a topic.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (chang @ Aug 9 2006, 10:44 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You forgot to compare a lot more other stats.OrtizAVG .291 | HR 41 | RBI 110 | OBP .398 | SLG .636 JeterAVG .346 | HR 9 | RBI 68 | OBP .420 | SLG .487I would say that is a lot more important. And people remember Ortiz hitting all those walk-offs.</div>According to ESPN's "Late and Close" :Jeter is batting .327 with an OBP of .471Ortiz is batting .323 with an OBP of .397Jeter is batting better in the clutch than Ortiz is.Overall: Ortiz has 92 runs createdJeter has 88 runs createdJeter has 22 total win sharesOrtiz has 19 total win sharesJeter has more Win Shares. Ortiz may have a flashy bat, but Jeter wins more games for the Yankees than Ortiz does for the Bosox.
Your arguement is flawed because your only really looking at half of the picture which is the contact hitting Side. Of course Derek Jeter is going to be doing better from the pure contact hitting numbers because he is the Contact hitter of the Group. What you're doing is completely discounting the Slugging numbers which is Ortiz's strongpoint. It's basically like saying that Shaun Alexander is worse then Brian Westbrook because Alexander doesnt have any recieveing yards. That's only looking at one (of multiple aspects) when you have to look at the complete picture.Derek Jeter (2006)Split - AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS, HR, RBITotal - .346/.422/.486/.908 9 HR, 68 RBIRunners On - .359/.450/.495/.945, 3 HR, 62 RBIRISP - .376/.484/.515/.999, 2 HR, 55 RBIRISP/2 - .425/.558/.600/1.158, 1 HR, 22 RBIClose and Late - .327/.471/.418/.889, 1 HR, 11 RBIDavid Ortiz (2006)Split - AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS, HR, RBITotal - .291/.398/.636/1.034, 41 HR, 110 RBIRunners On - .304/.407/.595/1.002, 18 HR, 87 RBIRISP - .304/.435/.576/1.011, 9 HR, 66 RBIRISP/2 - .288/.439/.558/.997, 4 HR, 25 RBIClose and Late - .323/.397/.877/1.274, 11 HR, 25 RBIBasically what we have here is the Classic Contact Hitter vs the Classic Slugger. Nobody is going to argue that Jeter is a much better contact hitter here out of the two and im sure that nobody is going to argue that Ortiz is a much better slugger. But the numbers that really stand out here is that while Ortiz has pretty good contact hitting skills to go along with his insane slugging numbers, Jeter has minimal power to go along with his contact hitting skills. Which is why im leaning towards Ortiz as the better overall player. PS: Playoffs (Career)Derek Jeter .307/.379/.463/.842, 16 HR, 47 RBI in 23 Playoff Series (462 AB)David Ortiz .301/.383/.552/.935, 8 HR, 32 RBI in 8 Playoff Series (143 AB) (Proportionally, Ortiz had half the stats in one third of the time, had he played the same amount of At-Bats as Jeter has had in the Postseason his HR/RBI total would be well above that of Jeter)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Aug 9 2006, 10:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Your arguement is flawed because your only really looking at half of the picture which is the contact hitting Side. Of course Derek Jeter is going to be doing better from the pure contact hitting numbers because he is the Contact hitter of the Group. What you're doing is completely discounting the Slugging numbers which is Ortiz's strongpoint. It's basically like saying that Shaun Alexander is worse then Brian Westbrook because Alexander doesnt have any recieveing yards. That's only looking at one (of multiple aspects) when you have to look at the complete picture.Derek Jeter (2006)Split - AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS, HR, RBITotal - .346/.422/.486/.908 9 HR, 68 RBIRunners On - .359/.450/.495/.945, 3 HR, 62 RBIRISP - .376/.484/.515/.999, 2 HR, 55 RBIRISP/2 - .425/.558/.600/1.158, 1 HR, 22 RBIClose and Late - .327/.471/.418/.889, 1 HR, 11 RBIDavid Ortiz (2006)Split - AVG/OBP/SLG/OPS, HR, RBITotal - .291/.398/.636/1.034, 41 HR, 110 RBIRunners On - .304/.407/.595/1.002, 18 HR, 87 RBIRISP - .304/.435/.576/1.011, 9 HR, 66 RBIRISP/2 - .288/.439/.558/.997, 4 HR, 25 RBIClose and Late - .323/.397/.877/1.274, 11 HR, 25 RBIBasically what we have here is the Classic Contact Hitter vs the Classic Slugger. Nobody is going to argue that Jeter is a much better contact hitter here out of the two and im sure that nobody is going to argue that Ortiz is a much better slugger. But the numbers that really stand out here is that while Ortiz has pretty good contact hitting skills to go along with his insane slugging numbers, Jeter has minimal power to go along with his contact hitting skills. Which is why im leaning towards Ortiz as the better overall player. PS: Playoffs (Career)Derek Jeter .307/.379/.463/.842, 16 HR, 47 RBI in 23 Playoff Series (462 AB)David Ortiz .301/.383/.552/.935, 8 HR, 32 RBI in 8 Playoff Series (143 AB) (Proportionally, Ortiz had half the stats in one third of the time, had he played the same amount of At-Bats as Jeter has had in the Postseason his HR/RBI total would be well above that of Jeter)</div>Count the Win Shares.Count the clutch play in the field and at the plate.Jeter is the true winner. For you to pick Ortiz because he has gaudy HR totals is asnine. It's being a casual fan, and not an educated one. Jeter wins more games than Ortiz does, pure and simple.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Jon_Vilma @ Aug 9 2006, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Count the Win Shares.Count the clutch play in the field and at the plate.Jeter is the true winner. For you to pick Ortiz because he has gaudy HR totals is asnine. It's being a casual fan, and not an educated one. Jeter wins more games than Ortiz does, pure and simple.</div>1) Did you completely ignore what I just said?Im not picking because of 'gaudy HR totals'.More like because...- Ortiz has 63 Extra Base Hits, Jeter has 38- Ortiz has 75 Walks, Jeter has 50- Ortiz has 110 RBI's, Jeter has 68- Ortiz has 7 More Runs Scored then Jeter, despite the fact that Jeter has the obvious advantage of being a #2 hitter.- Ortiz has a .630 Slugging Percentage, Jeter has .486- Ortiz has a 1.026 On Base Plus Slugging Percentage, Jeter has .918- Oh yeah, and the fact that he has hit 32 more Home Runs then Jeter doesnt hurt either.- And on top of all of that, he is hitting .288 which is great for a slugger of his caliber. You can choose to so ignorantly ignore power numbers since they dont fit your arguement, but they do exist.2) Defense? By almost any measure, Derek Jeter is a below average defensive shortstop. He consistently ranks near the bottom of the league in most defensive categories. The debate about Jeter's defense shouldn't be about good or bad, instead whether he's merely below average or the worst in the league. First of all, he has very poor range. Ground Balls constantly get by Derek Jeter on a rather consistant basis that most other Shortstops in the league would have turned an out on.Second of all, he tends to over-dramatize almost every single play that he does get to. I think most people can agree that Jeter is known for about 3 plays defensively A) The Jump-Throw to first base that he does almost 3 times a week now "The Flip" (Game 3, 2001 ALDS) and C) The Diving into Stands play against Boston.A) On this play he moves to the right, barehanding a baseball that any other shortstop in the league would have grabbed easily, then leaps into mid air while firing the ball to first base, all while not realizeing that if he just stopped and planted his feet, that he would have still nailed the runner by about 15 feet 90% of the time. 'The Flip', quite possibly the most overrated play in Baseball History because the throw was close enough to the catcher that im not sure that Jeter needed to actually flip the ball to the catcher in the first place, but thats not even important because this all becomes a moot point if Jeremy Giambi had enough brains to SLIDE into Home Plate. What it was was a terrible baserunning play by Giambi, a great tag by Posada and what very well might have been an unnecessary flip by Derek Jeter.C) On this play Jeter ran right, caught the baseball on what would have been a good play defensively, until then he ran about 3 full steps before unneccessairily doing a face-plant into the stands. In those three steps he had enough time to slow down enough to at least be stopped by the Wall instead of needing to do a faceplant against the fans sitting in the front row. But I guess Jeter should thank those 3 plays for committing what should be a crime in giving him a Gold Glove (Which by the way only took A-Rod switching positions and Nomar moving to the NL for it to happen, not to mention robbing a much more deserving Omar Vizquel).Seriously, look at his defensive stats...try to find one there that suggests that Jeter is even AVERAGE defensively.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stat...ontext=fieldingAt least David Ortiz is smart enough to realize he cant play Defense and just doesnt try.....3) Im not even going to get into Win Shares and the credibility (or lack there of) of the stat....I'll just leave you with a question...If Win Shares was a 'credible stat', why doesnt the mainstream media use it?
[quote name='AdropOFvenom' post='63440' date='Aug 10 2006, 12:49 AM'][quote name='Jon_Vilma' post='63432' date='Aug 9 2006, 09:54 PM']Count the Win Shares.Count the clutch play in the field and at the plate.Jeter is the true winner. For you to pick Ortiz because he has gaudy HR totals is asnine. It's being a casual fan, and not an educated one. Jeter wins more games than Ortiz does, pure and simple.[/quote]1) Did you completely ignore what I just said?Im not picking because of 'gaudy HR totals'.More like because...- Ortiz has 63 Extra Base Hits, Jeter has 38- Ortiz has 75 Walks, Jeter has 50- Ortiz has 110 RBI's, Jeter has 68- Ortiz has 7 More Runs Scored then Jeter, despite the fact that Jeter has the obvious advantage of being a #2 hitter.- Ortiz has a .630 Slugging Percentage, Jeter has .486- Ortiz has a 1.026 On Base Plus Slugging Percentage, Jeter has .918- Oh yeah, and the fact that he has hit 32 more Home Runs then Jeter doesnt hurt either.- And on top of all of that, he is hitting .288 which is great for a slugger of his caliber. You can choose to so ignorantly ignore power numbers since they dont fit your arguement, but they do exist.[/quote]Power numbers are only a fraction of the game. Ortiz is the best, this year, in the power numbers. The flashy home runs. But there is more than one way to win a game, and listing all the power numbers in no way makes your argument stronger. Sorry, just have to interject at your stupidity here, he's the 3rd best defensive SS in the American league this year. So only 2 SS's are average-to-above average in the AL? Lol. Again, your ignorance in this area. Jeter was 2nd last year, 4th in 2004, Over the past 3 years, NO SS in the AL has been a better fielder than Jeter. You are doing nothing but talking out of your ass here. Jeter is a great fielder Out of your ass, talking you are. You are so ignorant on this subject, it's insane. I'm not even sure you are serious and not joking anymore.First of all, he has very poor range. Ground Balls constantly get by Derek Jeter on a rather consistant basis that most other Shortstops in the league would have turned an out on.Second of all, he tends to over-dramatize almost every single play that he does get to. I think most people can agree that Jeter is known for about 3 plays defensively A) The Jump-Throw to first base that he does almost 3 times a week now "The Flip" (Game 3, 2001 ALDS) and C) The Diving into Stands play against Boston.A) On this play he moves to the right, barehanding a baseball that any other shortstop in the league would have grabbed easily, then leaps into mid air while firing the ball to first base, all while not realizeing that if he just stopped and planted his feet, that he would have still nailed the runner by about 15 feet 90% of the time. 'The Flip', quite possibly the most overrated play in Baseball History because the throw was close enough to the catcher that im not sure that Jeter needed to actually flip the ball to the catcher in the first place, but thats not even important because this all becomes a moot point if Jeremy Giambi had enough brains to SLIDE into Home Plate. What it was was a terrible baserunning play by Giambi, a great tag by Posada and what very well might have been an unnecessary flip by Derek Jeter.C) On this play Jeter ran right, caught the baseball on what would have been a good play defensively, until then he ran about 3 full steps before unneccessairily doing a face-plant into the stands. In those three steps he had enough time to slow down enough to at least be stopped by the Wall instead of needing to do a faceplant against the fans sitting in the front row. But I guess Jeter should thank those 3 plays for committing what should be a crime in giving him a Gold Glove (Which by the way only took A-Rod switching positions and Nomar moving to the NL for it to happen, not to mention robbing a much more deserving Omar Vizquel).Seriously, look at his defensive stats...try to find one there that suggests that Jeter is even AVERAGE defensively.http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/players/stat...ontext=fielding[/quote]Read above. He has the highest average fielding % over the past 3 season for any SS in the AL. Because you can't argue with the truth. They do. Watch Baseball tonight.
Just the fact Ortiz leads the majors in HR makes him the favorite. It happens that way a lot.Jeter isn't THAT bad defensively ADrop, he's merely average, maybe making a case for above average. Still, Yankee fans will consider him the best player in the MLB.
on the stands play, he was running FULL SPEED when he caught the ball. he didnt hav time to slow down, let alone come to a stop. if he hadnt been going full speed, then he doesnt catch it. jeter makes 2 plays better than 99% of baseball (the grounder in the hole, glove,jump turn throw) and (the short pop in LF, overtheshoulder catch)if you watch jeter, he is very good defensively. There is no way to quantify defensive skills. But experts, from peter gammons to Buster Olney to Omar Vizquel have stated that Jeter is an excellent defender.and BTW - obviously, ortiz is better HR hitter than jeter. but jeter isnt terrible. in one season (forhot which one) he hit i think 28, 30 HR. he hasnt been hitting HRs the pastcouple years because hes been trying to get on base. He was willing to trade 15 hoeruns a year for maybe 40+ on his BA, and many more runs scored. You know why? because he has Arod, Giambi, sheff, matsui and now abreu behind him. He never overswings, not even on perfect pitches because he would rather get on base on 100% of those perfect pitches, then hit HRs on 50%, and make an out on the other 50%.....simply put:iof u look at the lineups, Ortiz is a Run PRODUCER. Jeter is a RUN SCORER. Im sure that if Ortiz was faster, and had better production behind beyond Manny, then he would hit less HRs while bringing his BA up. Same for JEter. If he didnt have those great RBI guys behind him, he would try to swing for the fences. Its Situational Hitting...doing what needs to be done depends on what your team needs. The Sox need HR/RBI out of Ortiz, Yankees need OBP, BA and runs scored out of Jeter.
Papi is the most clutch hitter in the game. The only think I fear is one day he'll tear his ACL jumping on home following a walk-off HR. Happened to some minor league guy.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrianUrlacher54 @ Aug 16 2006, 08:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Papi is the most clutch hitter in the game. The only think I fear is one day he'll tear his ACL jumping on home following a walk-off HR. Happened to some minor league guy.</div>Then why does he not lead in Win-Shares?
