Over in the Deng top 5 thread we've got a recurrence of the age old (or at least 3 year old) who's most important on the Bulls, Gordon or Kirk or Deng argument.</p> I figure that deserves its own thread. The way I see it, it's all a false argument. Without Gordon, I think the Bulls would have been in a lot of games but not won them. Without the other guys, they wouldn't have been in a lot of games.</p> People like to think that there's a nice, linear correlation when you add or subtract players, but I think basketball's a lot more complex. It's not like baseball where you can look at statistical differences and learn a lot. I think it's a lot more like building an engine or something like that. You put a supercharger on a Prius and you still have a shitty car for racing. You need a good engine to make use of it, and that's what those other guys are to Ben Gordon. Get rid of Gordon and you're in trouble, but don't have a good team around him and you're in trouble too.</p> </p>
It's hard to argue that the Bulls' resurgence didn't happen until they got Deng, Gordon, and Duhon via the draft and signed Nocioni as a FA - all in the same season.</p> All four were huge upgrades over the four guys whose roster spots they took.</p> </p>
Curry and Chandler playing for contracts certainly played a huge role in the resurgence</p> </p> All I know is that Deng is the player every other GM wants the most off of the Bulls</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'> Curry and Chandler playing for contracts certainly played a huge role in the resurgence</p> </p> All I know is that Deng is the player every other GM wants the most off of the Bulls </p> </div></p> </p> Oh forsure, Deng is the type of player everybody wants, he is a gym rat, and wants to be the best. What GM wouldn't want him...</p>
I think the desire for Deng will drop as he signs an extension. A lot like Kirk, he'll look like less of a deal at $9M+
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC)</div><div class='quotemain'>I think the desire for Deng will drop as he signs an extension. A lot like Kirk, he'll look like less of a deal at $9M+</div> I don't agree</p> Deng is a 2 way player with good size for his position. Considering his production, he would be a damn fine value at that price.</p>
You can't just say blindly that teams around the league would want Deng over Gordon. </p> Just out of teams that we know, Gordon has a 2-1 advantage.</p> Ben Gordon: Boston, IndianaLuol Deng: Toronto</p> </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC)</div><div class='quotemain'>I think the desire for Deng will drop as he signs an extension. A lot like Kirk, he'll look like less of a deal at $9M+</div> I don't agree</p> Deng is a 2 way player with good size for his position. Considering his production, he would be a damn fine value at that price. </p></div> kirk hinrich is a 2 way player too. one of the best defensive guards in the league.
If the Bulls want to become aan elite team, and become a championship contender, it will be because of Luol Deng. That being said, every person on the bulls has their role and without them we wouldnt be the same team. In the future though, i see Deng emerging as our star and leading the team, if i had to decide right now whose most valuable to the bulls though, i'd say ben gordon. We are a considerably weak offensive team and he is the best offensive player on our team. Without Deng we still have noc, so i wouldnt consider him as valuable yet.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'> Memphis, Portland, New Jersey want Deng</p> so that is 4-2 and it doesn't get any better for Ben </p> </div></p> Memphis wanted BOTH Gordon and Deng.</p> New Jersey didn't want Deng. Bulls wanted Richard Jefferson, but Nets turned down Deng for Jefferson. Hardly showing how much they want him. </p> Portland wanting Deng...that just sounds made up. The only talk about Deng going to Portland were by the fans themselves. The Portland fans were delusional thinking they were going to get Gordon, Deng, or Ty Thomas for Zach Randolph, when all the stuff printed in the press was Nocioni or Brown. </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BG7 Lavigne)</div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'> Memphis, Portland, New Jersey want Deng</p> so that is 4-2 and it doesn't get any better for Ben </p> </div></p> Memphis wanted BOTH Gordon and Deng.</p> New Jersey didn't want Deng. Bulls wanted Richard Jefferson, but Nets turned down Deng for Jefferson. Hardly showing how much they want him. </p> Portland wanting Deng...that just sounds made up. The only talk about Deng going to Portland were by the fans themselves. The Portland fans were delusional thinking they were going to get Gordon, Deng, or Ty Thomas for Zach Randolph, when all the stuff printed in the press was Nocioni or Brown. </p> </div> Memphis wanted Deng more than Gordon</p> The Bulls turned down the Nets, not the other way around. The Bulls started with the #16 and Deng, the Nets asked for #2 and it was turned down and #16 was pulled off the table. </p> Portland absolutely wanted Deng and it was in the papers, not just the fans. If you paid attention, they weren't trading Zach for Noc & Brown because they wanted a player on his rookie contract.</p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime)</div><div class='quotemain'>If the Bulls want to become aan elite team, and become a championship contender, it will be because of Luol Deng. That being said, every person on the bulls has their role and without them we wouldnt be the same team. In the future though, i see Deng emerging as our star and leading the team, if i had to decide right now whose most valuable to the bulls though, i'd say ben gordon. We are a considerably weak offensive team and he is the best offensive player on our team. Without Deng we still have noc, so i wouldnt consider him as valuable yet.</div></p> I think Tyrus Thomas is the most important for this team to become an elite championship team (on the level of the Spurs).</p> Both Ben Gordon and Luol Deng should be doing good this year. (25 PPG for Ben, 20 PPG for Deng I think on high TS%). I think we have enough right now to win a championship this year. But if we want to be a recurrent championship team, and a favorite to win it all rather than a fringe contender, I think we'll need that third guy to step up, and that is going to have to be Tyrus Thomas. Kirk and Nocioni are pretty close to maxing out imho, so I'm not expecting too much improvement from those two. </p>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MikeDC)</div><div class='quotemain'>I think the desire for Deng will drop as he signs an extension. A lot like Kirk, he'll look like less of a deal at $9M+</div> I don't agree</p> Deng is a 2 way player with good size for his position. Considering his production, he would be a damn fine value at that price. </p> </div></p> </p> That's also true of Hinrich, isn't it? I think his value dropped a bit after signing his extension</p> While we're at it:</p> <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan)</div><div class='quotemain'>The Bulls turned down the Nets, not the other way around. The Bulls started with the #16 and Deng, the Nets asked for #2 and it was turned down and #16 was pulled off the table.</div></p> That sounds like the Nets turned down the Bulls' initial offer and the Nets counteroffer was rebuffed by the Bulls, who then decided to forget the whole thing.</p> The fact we were willing to trade Deng + 16 for RJeff should frighten me as a Bulls fan. The fact Rod Thorn apparently decided having a golden egg laying goose laid at his feet wasn't enough, and that he asked for a night with the Mrs. Paxson on top should frighten you as a Nets fan. </p>
Ben Gordon is the rise and fall of teh Bulls if you ask me. When this guy is off, everyone is off. He is their "momentum" player. If ben hits a couple everyone steps it up. When Gordon goes like 1-11, its basically a done deal for the bulls. When Deng does that, its not as harsh of a hit.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Giantsfan1)</div><div class='quotemain'>Ben Gordon is the rise and fall of teh Bulls if you ask me. When this guy is off, everyone is off. He is their "momentum" player. If ben hits a couple everyone steps it up. When Gordon goes like 1-11, its basically a done deal for the bulls. When Deng does that, its not as harsh of a hit.</div></p> Exactly. Thats what I see when watching the Bulls.</p> Thats why I was completely dumbfounded when Bill Walton was trying to say that Ben's points were less impactful than most guys in the league. </p>
Thats also why he is an analyst, because he can talk about nopthing and pretend to knw what he is talking about. I have a feeling once BG gets mnore consistent and clutch, this will be a team that will dominate teh east for many years.
[quote name='MikeDC'][quote name='cpawfan'] [quote name='MikeDC']I think the desire for Deng will drop as he signs an extension. A lot like Kirk, he'll look like less of a deal at $9M+[/QUOTE] I don't agree</p> Deng is a 2 way player with good size for his position. Considering his production, he would be a damn fine value at that price. </p> [/QUOTE]</p> That's also true of Hinrich, isn't it? I think his value dropped a bit after signing his extension [/quote]</p> Hinrich's production for his position doesn't put him in the same relative class. Nor does he have the upside to make teams salivate over him either. </p> </p> [quote name='MikeDC'] </p> While we're at it:</p> [quote name='cpawfan']The Bulls turned down the Nets, not the other way around. The Bulls started with the #16 and Deng, the Nets asked for #2 and it was turned down and #16 was pulled off the table. [/QUOTE]</p> That sounds like the Nets turned down the Bulls' initial offer and the Nets counteroffer was rebuffed by the Bulls, who then decided to forget the whole thing.</p> The fact we were willing to trade Deng + 16 for RJeff should frighten me as a Bulls fan. The fact Rod Thorn apparently decided having a golden egg laying goose laid at his feet wasn't enough, and that he asked for a night with the Mrs. Paxson on top should frighten you as a Nets fan. </p>[/QUOTE] Actually it sounds like Thorn was his typical greedy self and asked for more. Thorn doesn't make trades unless he believes he is ripping somebody off. Now as far as being frightened, I'm not a Thorn fan so you're talking to the wrong Nets fan.
