Hands down. You guys act like he's f*cking Minute Bol.I've even heard some people say that Dwight Howard is a better rebounder! Jesus! are you guys serious? come on, have some respect for the greatest center to ever live.
I'm pretty sure in the thread that people rated the top players of all time he was top 3 or top 5 for everyone. I know he was great, 100 freakin points!
No he's not. Everyone will rank him at least top 5 all time.The grey area comes in if he played in today's NBA, where he'd have to play players larger, far more athletic, much more muscular, and of course the different defenses and new rules. He definately wouldn't be nearly as dominant as he wa sin the '50's/'60's.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 10 2006, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No he's not. Everyone will rank him at least top 5 all time.The grey area comes in if he played in today's NBA, where he'd have to play players larger, far more athletic, much more muscular, and of course the different defenses and new rules. He definately wouldn't be nearly as dominant as he wa sin the '50's/'60's.</div>See? that's the problem. Players today aren't far more athletic and much more muscular. Granted they are not less than Wilt in those respects but by no means are they ahead of him by any wide margin. I mean people just think that because he played in the 60's that he only dominated just because of his size when in fact he was simply an amazing athlete in every way.Im just saying he needs some love. I used to have a good collection of Wilt footage, unfortunately most of it is so damn worn that it's useless. I could have posted some of it on this site if only this place was around about 15 years ago. There are some great fans on this site, I know you all would have appreciated it.
I have been reading alot of your posts, and I think if anything you overrate Wilt Chamberlain. You treat him like he's god, when in fact, he dominated at a time when everyone else on the court that came close to the same size as him wasn't any good. Bill Russell was a dominant center at 6'9 215 pounds. Walt Bellamy averaged 20 points and about 14 rebounds at 6-11, 225 pounds. Had there been the Shaq's, Patrick Ewing's, David Robinson, Alonzo Mourning, and centers like they had in the mid 90's, in the league at that time and I could gurantee Wilt would not have been as good as he was back then. It's also true, players of today are bigger, stronger, faster, more talented and smarter than players of Wilts time. Hell, even high schoolers of today are more athletic than the players of Wilts time.
He wouldn't be putting up the same numbers but I'm sure he'd still dominate this league. It wasn't as if he just shot over people, the guy had a crazy offensive arsenal. I'm sure it'd translate into today game.
To be fair, I always thought it was wrong to compare players from different eras to each other. There's just too many things factored in. Hell, outside of baseball, professional sports weren't all that important back then. What if there was an AAU circuit when Wilt was a kid? What if college programs weren't corrupt or had parity? You can say the same for today's game.. What if there wsasn't an AAU circuit? What if there were only a couple really good college teams? What if weight training wasn't as big a deal?Come on, there's so many issues at play it's not even funny.Wilt is what he is, probably the most dominant center of his era.
I watched two or three games of his through downloads and stuff, and I know it's probably hard to get a great understanding of him from just two or three games, but I got a good look at basketball during that time. The thing is lots of the things he did back in that day, is not even allowed these days. Lots of the rebounds he got in the three games I watched, would be goaltending these days. He would grab the ball off the rim before it had a chance to go in, he would do this both on offense and defense, and it was counted as rebounds. To go along with that, on offense he would grab the ball and then put it up after getting one of these rebounds from what is goaltending these days. Same as some of he blocks, even though they did not record blocks at that time, his blocks were as the ball was on it's way down. That would once again be a goal tending these days. Another thing I noticed, players didn't box him out like the players of today would do. They didn't make sure that at all times there was a body trying to box him out as soon as the shot went up. In today's game, if there was a dominant rebounder, teams make sure to try to put a body on them and box out as soon as the ball went up. Alot of the teams back then either didn't know to do that, or just didn't do it.
Valo, outside of hakeem no center has an offensive arsenal like Wilt. Add his athletiscism and moves and you have dominance. He's no Manute Bol.
<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">I love Wilton Norman Chamberlain (no homo). In fact, I did a speech about him for my Forensics & Debate class. It received a 90/100 (I studdered... dammit..).Anyway, even though I respect Wilt so much, I still have to agree that he would not be as dominant as he was back then in today's basketball game. I bet that even Ha Seung Jin would have been dominant in the 50's-60's. No disrespect to that era, of course. However, people in Wilt's era weren't as good as they are these days.I think Wilt would have still averaged about 20 and 10 with about 2-3 blocks per. I just don't guarantee that Wilton would have dominated with 100 points one night, 77 another, etc. You know what I mean? End of story.</span>
Maybe not 35 points, but 20 rebounds? Yes. He's the greatest rebounder ever, nobody today can even begin to come close.That's part of my problem, to say the rebounders today would even contest Wilt is ubsurd. Players today don't even rebound.Anyway, my point is, and I'll keep making it, is that he just doesn't get the respect that Michael Jordan gets. MJ is very overrated, Wilt who was the most dominant player ever, is hardly remembered by the casual fan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Oct 10 2006, 07:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe not 35 points, but 20 rebounds? Yes. He's the greatest rebounder ever, nobody today can even begin to come close.That's part of my problem, to say the rebounders today would even contest Wilt is ubsurd. Players today don't even rebound.Anyway, my point is, and I'll keep making it, is that he just doesn't get the respect that Michael Jordan gets. MJ is very overrated, Wilt who was the most dominant player ever, is hardly remembered by the casual fan.</div>Rodman, at 6'7'' and in a FAR more athletic league with the new rules and better techniques (aka natural evolution of game), he averaged 18RPG one season, and was around 13RPG for career. I'd say Rodman is a better rebounder than Wilt, easily, as he used pure will and technique to get his boards.Aside from big men today being stronger, more muscular and far more athletic than back then, and knowing better techniques and adjusting to rule changes, there is also player like LeBron who grab 7RPG due to insane athleticism, or even PG's like JKidd.You do overrated Wilt VERY much.
<span style="font-family:Book Antiqua">Hmm... Though Rodman may seem more athletic, is it really easy to tell? I mean, you've seen highlights of Rodman grabbing boards over other great athletes. Wilt grabbed boards over guys who could barely knick the hoop with the ball. However, what if Wilt could get more boards over Rodman? How would we be able to tell? It's not as though we can bring Wilt back in his prime and put him in the 1996 season. He'd probably not get 28 rpg, but would be damn near 20. If Rodman could get 20, who are we to say that Wilt wouldn't have been able to do the same?Anyway, I respect this thread. I used to think the same way Michael Bryant (thread-starter) did. Actually, I thought the same way the first time I joined this site. However, recently, I've gave in to everyone's arguments about how Wilt had it easy in the late-50's and 1960's. Though I still would put Wilt at number 1 on my GOAT list, I just agree with some people when they claim that Wilt wouldn't have been as great in today's era. He would still be one of the best, but probably not the best, you know?</span>
Totally not my point. My point was that most of Wilt's rebounds came off of no one boxing him out, no one near his size in frame or muscle, and no one as athletic as him. Rodman got his rebounds over 7' centers more athletic than Wilt, despit being so undersized. he did it on pure determination and skill, not size.Let's take a look at what kind of competition Wilt had to grab rebounds and score over:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 10 2006, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Totally not my point. My point was that most of Wilt's rebounds came off of no one boxing him out, no one near his size in frame or muscle, and no one as athletic as him. Rodman got his rebounds over 7' centers more athletic than Wilt, despit being so undersized. he did it on pure determination and skill, not size.Let's take a look at what kind of competition Wilt had to grab rebounds and score over:</div>You see? this is exactly my point. You guys act as if todays players are so brilliant. Let's see Ben Wallace get ONE rebound off Bill Russell. Guess what, he can't. You guys SEVERELY underrate and disrespect players of the past just because you ASSUME they aren't as good because they lack the modern help players have today. Boxing out was around since the begining of basketball, why you guys think it's only used today is beyond me. Wilt averaged 22.5 rebounds for his career, and he got those boards against three defenders. Try to grab a rebound with three guys trying their hardest to keep you on the ground and out of position and you'll have an idea of what Wilt did.As for Rodman, he didn't do anything else! His only job was to rebound. In 1962 Wilt averaged 50.4 points, 25.7 rebounds and 48.5 minutes per game. Do you have any idea of the energy and stamina that requires? Wilt was not only relied upon to carry the team offensively, but he also had to carry them defensively and he RARELY got any rest. Rodman never did that. The Centers Rodman rebounded against were not more athletic and better than Wilt. That is crazy talk right there. Maybe Olajuwon, but that's it.Also, take a look at Elgin Baylors number for the same year.(1962) He averaged 38.3 points per game, 18.6 rebounds per game and 44.3 minutes per game. Remember he was only 6'5" and those numbers are better than Rodmans as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Oct 10 2006, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You see? this is exactly my point. You guys act as if todays players are so brilliant. Let's see Ben Wallace get ONE rebound off Bill Russell. Guess what, he can't. You guys SEVERELY underrate and disrespect players of the past just because you ASSUME they aren't as good because they lack the modern help players have today. Boxing out was around since the begining of basketball, why you guys think it's only used today is beyond me. Wilt averaged 22.5 rebounds for his career, and he got those boards against three defenders. Try to grab a rebound with three guys trying their hardest to keep you on the ground and out of position and you'll have an idea of what Wilt did.As for Rodman, he didn't do anything else! His only job was to rebound. In 1962 Wilt averaged 50.4 points, 25.7 rebounds and 48.5 minutes per game. Do you have any idea of the energy and stamina that requires? Wilt was not only relied upon to carry the team offensively, but he also had to carry them defensively and he RARELY got any rest. Rodman never did that. The Centers Rodman rebounded against were not more athletic and better than Wilt. That is crazy talk right there. Maybe Olajuwon, but that's it.Also, take a look at Elgin Baylors number for the same year.(1962) He averaged 38.3 points per game, 18.6 rebounds per game and 44.3 minutes per game. Remember he was only 6'5" and those numbers are better than Rodmans as well.</div>He would, Ben Wallace is far stronger, far more athletic than Russel, and is also more agressive.Wilt was far bigger and athletic than anyone in his era. In today's NBA he'd be average athletically, he wouldn't get those rebounds that would be goaltending today, he wouldn't be able to sit in paint defensively, and he would have to deal with SG/SF who average over 6RPG also going for ball that can get head level to rim when they jump. Boxing out, like everything in the game, has evolved since the '50's. There are new techniques in doing it, it is stressed way more than it was back then, and considering kids now play in leagues like AAU for years, all year round, they get a lot more practice at it and it is taught by the best.I said Rodman was the greatest rebounde rof all time, not great player of all time. Wilt got his rebounds off of things that weren't allowed in Rodman's time, and he dealt with players exactly like those you see in that picture. Mind you, Bill Russel is about as big as T-Mac, a bit skinnier. That is the difference in today's NBA and that NBA, the players have gotten bigger and FAR more muscular. They have also gotten far more athletic, take a look at the pic of DHoward dogmatist posted in the Magic forum...he is KISSING THE RIM!!Again, game was far more fast paced back then, lots more oppertunities for rebounds. And again, the quality and quantity of competition was far less.
Wilt isn't the most underrated player on this site, because Bob Lanier is. Amazing Center that no one talks about. Put up Hall of Fame numbers, possibily the best player in Pistons history, definately top three.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Oct 10 2006, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He would, Ben Wallace is far stronger, far more athletic than Russel, and is also more agressive.Wilt was far bigger and athletic than anyone in his era. In today's NBA he'd be average athletically, he wouldn't get those rebounds that would be goaltending today, he wouldn't be able to sit in paint defensively, and he would have to deal with SG/SF who average over 6RPG also going for ball that can get head level to rim when they jump. Boxing out, like everything in the game, has evolved since the '50's. There are new techniques in doing it, it is stressed way more than it was back then, and considering kids now play in leagues like AAU for years, all year round, they get a lot more practice at it and it is taught by the best.I said Rodman was the greatest rebounde rof all time, not great player of all time. Wilt got his rebounds off of things that weren't allowed in Rodman's time, and he dealt with players exactly like those you see in that picture. Mind you, Bill Russel is about as big as T-Mac, a bit skinnier. That is the difference in today's NBA and that NBA, the players have gotten bigger and FAR more muscular. They have also gotten far more athletic, take a look at the pic of DHoward dogmatist posted in the Magic forum...he is KISSING THE RIM!!Again, game was far more fast paced back then, lots more oppertunities for rebounds. And again, the quality and quantity of competition was far less.</div>Ben Wallace is not more agressive on the boards than Russ. That's like saying Devean George is more competitive than Michael Jordan.Also, the modern Goaltending rules were already in place when Wilt entered the league. The Cylinder rule was changed after his rookie year. Everything he did would be legal in today's game. And what is you deal with boxing out? It wasn't just invented and it wasn't improved over the years. It's not a science. Players in Wilt's time had that move down perfectly, mainly because if they didn't, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas or Wes Unseld would take the rebound from them. Besides, today's players hardly know any fundamentals anymore, which includes boxing out.And yeah, players today can jump real high. But it's not like the average vertical jump in the 1960's was 5 inches. Wilt for example High jumped 6' 6" in college. Players in those days could get up too, only if they did it, they'd be knocked to the floor, because players actually played defense in those days.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Oct 10 2006, 10:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Ben Wallace is not more agressive on the boards than Russ. That's like saying Devean George is more competitive than Michael Jordan.Also, the modern Goaltending rules were already in place when Wilt entered the league. The Cylinder rule was changed after his rookie year. Everything he did would be legal in today's game. And what is you deal with boxing out? It wasn't just invented and it wasn't improved over the years. It's not a science. Players in Wilt's time had that move down perfectly, mainly because if they didn't, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, Jerry Lucas or Wes Unseld would take the rebound from them. Besides, today's players hardly know any fundamentals anymore, which includes boxing out.And yeah, players today can jump real high. But it's not like the average vertical jump in the 1960's was 5 inches. Wilt for example High jumped 6' 6" in college. Players in those days could get up too, only if they did it, they'd be knocked to the floor, because players actually played defense in those days.</div>You bet your a$$ he is more agressive on boards. Bill Russel was the average height of a center in his time, Ben is undersized. The only way for him to get rebounds over taller defenders is to be more agressive and use his amazing athleticism to his advantage.Yes, it is a science. Boxing out is what gets you rebounds, unless you are 7'2'' and against much smaller players like Wilt was. It is taught at a much younger age now, and has been perfected over the years. Great rebounders like Rodman and Wallace, both undersized, used this to their advantage to get the rebounds they got. Back in the '50's/'60's most players couldn't box out like they can now, partially due to lack of strength to push a Wilt out of the paint, and also because they ddin't have the same technique pounded into their head since they were 5 like they are now. Give me a fu*king break, dude. Players back then were not nearly as athletic or strong as they are now. Ben Wallace would not get knocked on his ass like you say he would. If anything, Wilt would get pushed around by the Shaq's, Wallace's and Dwight Howard's of today. The whole arguement is what if Wilt was put into today's NBA, and Wilt would have to make those huge adjustments. He would have to actually do some boxing out, have to jump as high as a Dwight to get those rebounds. Watch some tapes of Wilt and you will see no one was boxing him out, definately not like how a Rodman used to box out, or a Ben Wallace boxes out now. It is a technique, if not angled right and if you are not strong enough to get player out of paint it won't work.
