Politics OK, Look......I'll Listen (Trump-Related)

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ABM

ABM

Happily Married In Music City, USA!
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Hey, guys....

OK, first of all, I'm rather sure it's apparent to most everyone here that I'm a Christian, Conservative, and overall supporter of President Trump. I did vote for him.

It may also be apparent that a very big issue for me is right to life. I believe that a human life is, well, a life....at conception. My Bible is clear about that. (Psalm 139:13-16; Jeremiah 1:15; Job 31:15; Psalm 22:10..and other passages come to mind) Even if only for that one solitary reason I support Trump, that's still been enough for me. I do support him on other issues, as well, but that's not the nature of my post/thread, here.

I'm here to "listen", not debate nor argue. What I hope to gain from this thread are objective, if not passionate, responses from all y'all as to what it is about Trump that you would never vote for, nor support him on.

Please, if you wouldn't mind, don't make this thread about, "Isn't it obvious to you?!?", or, "I can't stand that @#$%^$ and wished he were _____!!" or such. What I'm seriously hoping for, again, are honest and objective reasons why you're so opposed to him. And, along with you remarks, it would be awesome if you could share a legitimate link that backs up your position. Not some blog carved out in someone's basement.....if you know what I mean.

I will completely refrain from debate or negative comments. I've always considered myself as someone who seeks knowledge, understanding, and perspective. And that's the case here.

Thanks in advance for your your responses. I will read them with a completely open mind.

ABM - Tim
 
I'm a Christian, somewhat conservative (probably more moderate than anything I guess), abortion is an issue that does make me kind of queasy but how I feel about it isn't that important and I understand some of the arguments that pro-choice people bring up, now I also think there is a big difference between early and late terms (or after birth I'll never be behind this one) abortions.

Here's what I don't get how could a Christian really support him? He is the opposite of what we believe Christ to be and doesn't hold any "Christian" values in his own life. He's boning pornstars. He lies a lot. He is constantly on twitter raging at democrats and really anyone who dares to get in his way. The list of things he does that is very much against the values the Bible says to uphold, is incredible, I don't get why evangelicals like him... The biggest issue for me as a Christian is Love, do you love your neighbor, whether they agree or disagree with you, do you love your wife, your kids, your enemies. Trump very obviously loves himself and to me, the buck stops there. I have Christian friends and I've argued this before, I honestly don't know know how a Christian can say I support this guy even though he tramples all over the values I say are so important to me, all while wagging my God's name out there just to get evangelicals to vote for him.

Not that I need a leader who lives a "Christian" life I don't, but if you're going to claim it the least you could do is try. Many Atheist friends and I would never expect them to try to live a Christian lifestyle, and I could vote for some of them over Trump.

So there's that but I'm a firm believer in separation of Church and state I have said before and I'll say again the Church being incorporated into Rome was a terrible thing for this earth, Hinduism in India, Islam in the middle east and Africa, Atheism in China and Russia the list goes on but Governments imposing belief systems and religious "values" on its citizens is an awful thing, used mainly as a footstool for those who can abuse the power they obtain from it. I believe that while as a Christian there is importance in voting with your heart (just like everyone else does) we have to be very, very careful of trying to impose our belief systems as laws for the secular world, even according to our Bible the law only proves one thing and that is we can't live up to those standards. So why would a secular world have any desire to live up to some crazy standards, set up by things they don't believe in, and oftentimes abused to keep them down? I believe we are making a huge mistake when we try to govern people by making laws they don't want to or can't live by instead of showing Love to people, it doesn't matter if their black, white, brown, gay, straight, etc, etc. My biggest problem with Trump is he does not lead that way. In fact, he leads quite the opposite ways in my opinion.

So, in a nutshell, I can't be behind a guy who promotes hate, division, and himself above being a leader, loving others and promoting unity. Now I have plenty of Democrats whose names I wouldn't put much higher than Trumps, but this is about Trump.
 
Why am I opposed to him? He's a con artist and opportunist. For starters, he made fun of someone for a disability. Doing that, speaks volumes about his character. I have family members who have disabilities, and some of my closest friends have disabilities. It should have instantly disqualified him as a candidate.



Also, another video:

 
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julius said:
Why am I opposed to him? He's a con artist and opportunist. For starters, he made fun of someone for a disability. Doing that, speaks volumes about his character. I have family members who have disabilities, and some of my closest friends have disabilities. It should have instantly disqualified him as a candidate.



Also, another video:

Click to expand...

I had never heard of the Central park 5.
 
Using religion to justify your own personal views on anything is hypocritical. Most people just cherry pick the easy stuff, they don’t have the stones to follow gods word when it’s “inconvenient”.

But go ahead and quote the Bible when it backs your own views up, and continue to ignore it when it doesn’t.
 
ABM said:
en if only for that one solitary reason I support Trump, that's still been enough for me. I do support him on other issues, as well, but that's not the nature of my post/thread, here.
Click to expand...
how do you feel about his immigration policies, family separation and pre-born deaths through miscarriages in the detention centers? are these acceptable losses in order to pack benches with "pro life judges?? this seems to be functionally evil to do good . even with the defeat of roe vs wade, abortion will not stop. you cannot forcibly change culture. you can be for the dignity of human life, though, but that would require a different candidate occupying the white house.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I had never heard of the Central park 5.
Click to expand...

A lot of people haven't. There's a reason why he got smoked New York, by a LOT. They know him, and know what kind of con man he is. And also know his history of racism (just google "trump black landlord" to get a pretty good idea why calling him a racist isn't a new thing).
 
julius said:
A lot of people haven't. There's a reason why he got smoked New York, by a LOT. They know him, and know what kind of con man he is. And also know his history of racism (just google "trump black landlord" to get a pretty good idea why calling him a racist isn't a new thing).
Click to expand...
I have heard and read about his antics as a landlord, I'm not sure but don't republicans get smoked in Cali and New York every 4 years? That was the impression I was under. Just hadn't heard of those guys, and that just sucks. Glad they got paid but they can't get those years back.
 
TorturedBlazerFan said:
I have heard and read about his antics as a landlord, I'm not sure but don't republicans get smoked in Cali and New York every 4 years? That was the impression I was under. Just hadn't heard of those guys, and that just sucks. Glad they got paid but they can't get those years back.
Click to expand...

It's his home state (Hillary claims it, but she was an opportunist too).

I'm glad you can admit it sucks (that really sounds like I'm being sarcastic towards you, I'm not). The thing is, many people put on the blinders when it comes to Trump.

Another reason I don't get blind support for him, his economic policies are not beneficial to the average person. He (and racists/ws's,) spins it so we blame other for our economic issues/etc, instead of seeing that he's doing things just to favor the incredibly rich.

You cut taxes, that the economy doesn't work for everyone, and it makes things harder to operate states/cities/government. And whose at fault?

Them damn immigrants!
 
julius said:
It's his home state (Hillary claims it, but she was an opportunist too).

I'm glad you can admit it sucks (that really sounds like I'm being sarcastic towards you, I'm not). The thing is, many people put on the blinders when it comes to Trump.

Another reason I don't get blind support for him, his economic policies are not beneficial to the average person. He (and racists/ws's,) spins it so we blame other for our economic issues/etc, instead of seeing that he's doing things just to favor the incredibly rich.

You cut taxes, that the economy doesn't work for everyone, and it makes things harder to operate states/cities/government. And whose at fault?

Them damn immigrants!
Click to expand...
consequential ism, and those that vote for one reason are complicit in all consequences of that choice.
 
To me it’s very simple. If you use religion as a reason that’s perfectly FINE. You live your life abiding by the Bible or you don’t. TRUMP and his fans can’t pick and choose what parts he/they want to stand behind. You simply cannot say “but abortion is wrong” and then treat people like shit. WWJD.
 
I will never support Trump because he isn't working for all Americans, just his donors and the extremely rich. Same as Barack Obama, G.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George Bush Sr. and Ronald Reagan did before him.

Trump is a traitor to America, same as the rest of the people I have listed. The reign of corporate presidents must end before America can ever be great, let alone great again.
 
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Ive known business tycoons that were good at their craft but jerks when it comes to how they treat people and lousy communicators. They excelled mostly because of good people that managed the business's.
Ive known a few politicians in my long life that were power hungry and would look right through you in order to climb their pedestal. And they were very disingenuous with their diplomacy and honesty. Always looking for power just as the selfish business tycoon.
Its nice to encounter either one thats willing to at least listen and/or sit down and discuss ideas and ways to compromise, for the sake of the community and young people.
I don't like it when a religion, politician or entrepreneur comes off as their way is the only way, by god and I will now fight you if you disagree with that. Nice thing to teach the youngsters.
 
Simple...Trump cannot be trusted, has no moral compass and makes up shit to mask his lack of knowledge. Surrounds himself with yes men and throws them under the bus as soon as they say no...insults good people and praises dictators. Guts environmental protection and good global programs like doctors without borders and unicef...practices payola ...and seems to be adamant about hiding his tax returns or showing transparency with his German banking practices...and worst of all is publicly tampering with witnesses and insulting prosecutors in ongoing investigations...showing all the traits of a Nixonesque corrupt man caught up in the power of an office he's not taken the time to understand. He brought reality tv to the capital. Baffles my mind that anyone would ever cast a vote for this jerk. He didn't know Puerto Rico wasn't a sovereign nation for fucks sake. He told the Israelis upon arrival he'd just left the middle east (Saudi Arabia) ...this administration is FUBAR
 
ABM said:
Please, if you wouldn't mind, don't make this thread about, "Isn't it obvious to you?!?"
Click to expand...
I don't think dictating something like this is necessary...I learn a lot from things that are obvious to others that I didn't see from that perspective. In the world of twitter, internet, cable tv news, etc....my Trump complaints stem directly from his words and actions on film, in print and on camera...some might say that that is obvious...making fun of disabled reporters or calling Latinos rapists and murderers....etc....so I guess I should bail from the thread because honestly...to me it is extremely obvious why Trump isn't qualified to lead the nation. Nothing to do with religious practices either. Trump is not a man of faith from my view....
 
riverman said:
I don't think dictating something like this is necessary...I learn a lot from things that are obvious to others that I didn't see from that perspective.....
Click to expand...


I understand.

I guess what I was really trying to get across was asking that folks don't simply retort, "Isn't it obvious to you?!" as a rhetorical question, and left it at that. In other words, my ultimate hope is hearing and gaining understanding from objective laid out disagreements with Trump and his administration.
 
ABM said:
It may also be apparent that a very big issue for me is right to life. I believe that a human life is, well, a life....at conception. My Bible is clear about that. (Psalm 139:13-16; Jeremiah 1:15; Job 31:15; Psalm 22:10..and other passages come to mind) Even if only for that one solitary reason I support Trump, that's still been enough for me.
Click to expand...

That's pretty vague and there are many differing views within the Right to Life debate. What do you believe?
 
ABM said:
Hey, guys....

OK, first of all, I'm rather sure it's apparent to most everyone here that I'm a Christian, Conservative, and overall supporter of President Trump. I did vote for him.

It may also be apparent that a very big issue for me is right to life. I believe that a human life is, well, a life....at conception. My Bible is clear about that. (Psalm 139:13-16; Jeremiah 1:15; Job 31:15; Psalm 22:10..and other passages come to mind) Even if only for that one solitary reason I support Trump, that's still been enough for me. I do support him on other issues, as well, but that's not the nature of my post/thread, here.

I'm here to "listen", not debate nor argue. What I hope to gain from this thread are objective, if not passionate, responses from all y'all as to what it is about Trump that you would never vote for, nor support him on.

Please, if you wouldn't mind, don't make this thread about, "Isn't it obvious to you?!?", or, "I can't stand that @#$%^$ and wished he were _____!!" or such. What I'm seriously hoping for, again, are honest and objective reasons why you're so opposed to him. And, along with you remarks, it would be awesome if you could share a legitimate link that backs up your position. Not some blog carved out in someone's basement.....if you know what I mean.

I will completely refrain from debate or negative comments. I've always considered myself as someone who seeks knowledge, understanding, and perspective. And that's the case here.

Thanks in advance for your your responses. I will read them with a completely open mind.

ABM - Tim
Click to expand...

Honest question. You said right to life is a major factor for you. I respect that completely. Do you think being passionate about ones right to life *should* carry over to being passionate about that persons life after birth? Like treating people of all races and sexual orientations well? Do you think Trump does that?
 
SlyPokerDog said:
That's pretty vague and there are many differing views within the Right to Life debate. What do you believe?
Click to expand...

It's a good question. At some point, I can absolutely share more of my viewpoints on that. That said, I want to stay withing the spirit of this thread and continue to digest others' viewpoints on Trump.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
That's pretty vague and there are many differing views within the Right to Life debate. What do you believe?
Click to expand...
Not that you’re asking me, but I have a hard time (personally) digesting the idea of late term abortions, early term I think they’re are good points by the pro-choice / women's rights groups. I also think people deserve that “right” and Im not in favor of the death penalty.
 
ABM said:
It's a good question. At some point, I can absolutely share more of my viewpoints on that. That said, I want to stay withing the spirit of this thread and continue to digest others' viewpoints on Trump.
Click to expand...

That's twice now I've tried to engage you in conversation and invite you to go into greater detail about your believes. If you want others to share it might be helpful to understand their audience (which is you.)

Do you believe mothers and doctors should be criminally punished for performing or having an abortion?

Do you believe in birth control? Should it be provided? Taught about in school?

About about pregnancies caused by rape?

What about disease or defects with the baby pre-birth?

Should we outlaw overseas adoptions?

If we force a woman to carry a baby to term do we as a society have any financial responsibilities for it?

The bible puts abortion and divorce as equally bad. How do you rectify that as someone who has been divorced?
 
SlyPokerDog said:
That's twice now I've tried to engage you in conversation and invite you to go into greater detail about your believes.
Click to expand...

Sly, I have been, and am, open to discussions that have to do with me, personally. That's not the nature of this thread, though. As I mentioned at the outset. I'm simply wanting to get more familiar with others' opinions of Donald Trump as President. In other words, just pretend I'm not even here and openly share your (hopefully, objective) thoughts on his Presidency.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
That's twice now I've tried to engage you in conversation and invite you to go into greater detail about your believes. If you want others to share it might be helpful to understand their audience (which is you.)

Do you believe mothers and doctors should be criminally punished for performing or having an abortion?

Do you believe in birth control? Should it be provided? Taught about in school?

About about pregnancies caused by rape?

What about disease or defects with the baby pre-birth?

Should we outlaw overseas adoptions?

If we force a woman to carry a baby to term do we as a society have any financial responsibilities for it?

The bible puts abortion and divorce as equally bad. How do you rectify that as someone who has been divorced?
Click to expand...

Maybe create a new thread where he (and/or others) can address these questions there? It might be an easier flow if his responses to questions (which I don't think was his point?) was in a different thread. @ABM might not agree.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
That's twice now I've tried to engage you in conversation and invite you to go into greater detail about your believes. If you want others to share it might be helpful to understand their audience (which is you.)

Do you believe mothers and doctors should be criminally punished for performing or having an abortion?

Do you believe in birth control? Should it be provided? Taught about in school?

About about pregnancies caused by rape?

What about disease or defects with the baby pre-birth?

Should we outlaw overseas adoptions?

If we force a woman to carry a baby to term do we as a society have any financial responsibilities for it?

The bible puts abortion and divorce as equally bad. How do you rectify that as someone who has been divorced?
Click to expand...

Im in a mood and stuck with kids at home today so Im answering these questions even though Im not ABM because I think its interesting.

1.). I dont know. Probably not the one arguments for abortions thats I will say I really understand is that people will do them anyways, better done by a doctor then with a hanger in an alley...

2.). I think Sex Education is important, but I also think starting it out on 6-7 year olds is a bit early. I believe that contraception is a good thing (though apparently I suck at using it).

3.). This is part of the reason I have said I understand and appreciate the argument for early term abortions. Though I also just wish women never were raped to begin with.

4.). Depends on the birth defect I guess, some cause danger to the mother, some dont, some mean basically no chance at a normal life, some dont.

5.) No, but we also shouldnt make adoptions cost as much as a ferrari either, not that its like a supermarket, but their are people who would love to adopt and could provide for children that cant afford the upfront costs associated with it.

6.). We have an obligation to the mother, the baby, and really everyone, illegal, legal, irregardless of race, religion, sexuality, etc in my opinion to do what we can to give them a chance to have a good life.

7.) Never been divorced or had an abortion. I dont rectify or justify any of my failures, I own up to them and say I absolutely suck, and work to not make the same mistakes over again.
 
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ABM:
1. Did you know that your interpretation of the bible as saying life begins at conception is comparatively recent? And that none of the passages you cite compel that interpretation?
For example, Psalm 139:13-16 "You knit me together in my mother's womb" - why does that suggest conception instead of any point in the development of the fetus? If you believe a person is a body and soul combined, then why can't you interpret "knit" as combining body and soul? Check out the views on ensoulment (Aristotle's view was particularly influential on St. Thomas Aquinas, the greatest of all Christian thinkers).
Jeremiah 1:15: "Before I formed you in the womb, I knew you."
If you actually read what that is saying, it says God knew you before you even existed. Does that mean contraception is wrong? Or if you focus on the "formed you in the womb" then (a) the foregoing point applies, and (b) "formed" actually suggests that it happens after conception, because "forming" probably means "took on human shape".
Job 31:15 "Did not he who made me in the womb..."
Same point again. Starting to think "made/formed me in the womb" is just a common phrase meaning "created me". And I (who absolutely do not believe that abortion is murder) can still say "I was conceived in the back seat of a Ford Cortina".
Psalm 22:10: "from my mother’s womb you have been my God."
Same point again - no mention of conception.
2. What about Exodus 21:22-25? It says that if as a result of a blow a pregnant woman give birth prematurely or has a miscarriage, then the person who did it just has to pay a fine (and explicitly goes on to say that if death is caused then it's an eye for an eye - thereby implying that the death of the fetus is not on a par with the death of an adult.
3. Do you honestly HONESTLY believe that Donald Trump shares your beliefs? That he's a devout Christian? Do you know ANYTHING about his personal life? I would bet huge sums of money that he has personally arranged several abortions. Wouldn't you?
4. If you are really a "single issue voter" (and you're not gung ho about building a wall to keep the brown people at bay) then shouldn't you care about minimizing abortions? But if so, then Donald Trump is a TERRIBLE candidate. The way to minimize abortion is to provide GREAT prenatal care, coupled with free and copious birth control, combined with excellent shame-free sex education. This has been proven effective - look at Scandinavia. If, on the other hand, you just want to make abortion illegal, then I suspect you don't really care about minimizing it.
5. I trust you are as outraged about fertility treatments as you are about abortion: standard fertility treatments involve the destruction of THOUSANDS of fertilized human eggs on a REGULAR basis.

Given how flagrantly un-Christian Trump is about just about everything, I can't help but wonder about your commitment to Christ. Christ talked copiously about helping the poorest among us and NOT AT ALL about abortion. Do you honestly believe that Christ gave a flying fuck about national borders, Trump (and his supporters)'s number one obsession?

6. In answer to your question: Trump is obviously a mentally impaired psychopathic con-man. I mean he doesn't even try to hide it. He just hopes that by rolling himself in the flag (that he doesn't really give a shit about) and the Bible (that I 100% guarantee he knows less than the average atheist 10 year old about) he will hoodwink people into following him by appealing to their prejudices. And who can blame him? It's worked like a charm so far.
 
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