2 Busts in this year's roster?

i dont think its fair to call them a bust until after their careers. look how long it took steve nash and jermaine o'neal to develop. now they're all stars

 

This happens a lot: absolute busts find a niche with another team, and it sort of covers up how much of a disappointment they have been. They are still major busts though. Especially when you consider what they were supposed to be.

notMuchgame summarized Chris Mihm being a bust pretty well. Even though it was a weak draft, there's no doubting the amount of hype that surrounded him. He's become servicable now, but it pales in comparison to what he was supposed to bring to the Celtics. Either way, you can sort of sit on the fence with Mihm. He's improving, and I think there are much bigger busts than him....

...And Kwame would be that bust. Honestly, his picture should be next to the dictionary definition of the word. He's a specialist now. And inconsistent one, but a specialist nonetheless. But he was picked #1. You don't pick a specialist first overall. Even if the Wizards had traded Kwame, they would have ended up with more value than what Brown currently produces.


EDIT: Either way, this really doesn't mean anything for the Lakers. It's not like their contracts are as big as they could have been, if they fullfilled their potential. They're getting paid pretty fairly for what they produced. Since LA never wasted a pick on them, their draft history means nothing.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Brian:</div><div class="quote_post">Kwame still doesn't look like he can be a potential all star. He has the ability to become a great player one day. He has all the potential, but when will he be able to utilize his full potential? He hasn't been able in the past 5 seasons, so will he ever be able to?</div>

Near the end of the season stint is all I'm going to say on this for now. We will see. I am not gonna bet on it but I am going to be wary of him having a good year next year.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">Now, do you really expect him to do the same for all of next season?</div>

No but its pretty ignorant to just brush it aside as easy to average those type of numbers.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">Those are pretty easy points there,</div>
Not really easy but I can see where you are coming from.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">considering he's getting wide open looks because teams envelop Bryant on defense. </div>
I highly doubt Browns defender runs over to give help defense everytime Bryant has the ball.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">No doubt, there's some hook shots and little jumpers thrown in there, but if he was really a force on offense and had a wide array of post moves, his points per game would be bumped up.</div>
Dwight has no array of post moves to speak of and he still fairs pretty well. No doubt if he learned some his PPG would be bumped up but he was basically ****ed in Washington with all the controversy and trouble with teamates. In LA he looked better than he did before. He also (Don't quote me on this since I don't know for fact) might get help from Kareem Abdul Jabbar to get the post moves working who knows.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, stats measure what players bring to the table, so if you don't consider them on numbers, its really hard to tell what they do bring to the table so to speak. The only exception is hustle and defense, but obviously the Wizards didn't draft Brown number one overall so he could just be an expert hustler () and good defender. You're correct on the fact that a team drafts a certain player to develop them and fill their needs. However, this is Kwame Brown we're talking about here. The Washington Wizards drafted him so he'll become their franchise player. At this rate, I doubt he'll ever become a franchise player or even anything above role player.</div>

That was a typo, my bad

I meant to say busts shouldn't be measure so much on their draft number. It should be on what they do bring. Kwame has brought the Lakers a defensive big with an ability to score down low. That to me shouldn't be bust material.TD type scoring down low? By no means at all. I am in no way overrating Kwame.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">Your call. But let me get this straight, you don't think Kwame Brown is a bust, yet you think Chris Mihm is?</div>
I wouldn't call Kwame or Mihm a bust yet but if Mihm was suppose to be a nightmare on defense and offense then hell yes I would consider that foo a bust considering he is neither.

I wouldn't overrate Kwame and say he is going to become a J O'Neal type player or bring 20/10 but he is definitly capable of bringing 15/10 in the triangle imo.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting antonyo09:</div><div class="quote_post">i dont think its fair to call them a bust until after their careers. look how long it took steve nash and jermaine o'neal to develop. now they're all stars</div>
I said AS OF NOW Kwame is a bust. I said he can always improve, but as of now, there is no way to classify him but a bust.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chutney:</div><div class="quote_post">Either way, this really doesn't mean anything for the Lakers. It's not like their contracts are as big as they could have been, if they fullfilled their potential. They're getting paid pretty fairly for what they produced. Since LA never wasted a pick on them, their draft history means nothing.</div>

Fair enough. Chutney made a good point

To LA he is not a bust. To Washington he is a bust.

Agree to disagree everyone?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
First off LeBron is.....LeBron. He is amazing in his own right. I highly doubt anyone will come straight out of HS like him and do what he has done/been doing.</div>
If only Greg Oden and OJ Mayo had the chance...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yao is not only 7'6" he had much experience playing in the CBA which I bet would prepare you 10x more than any HS in the USA would. Also please look at the 02 Draft class. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_NBA_Draft
Dunleavy Jr. as a top 3?
</div>
Tons of players have been around the same height as Yao but still failed miserably in the NBA. If anything, playing in the CBA has stunted his development in the NBA a bit because he has to deal with the different mentality and mindset as compared to playing in China. Only last year has he actually grasped the concept of dominating the ball. Right, but according to your definition, Dunleavy Jr. can't be considered a bust unless he's complete garbage in the NBA.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Dwight in again different in his own right. Not many players come along like Howard or Bron.</div>
If only...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Boguts rookie season wasn't as good as Kwames best season. Check again.</div>
Bogut last year had averaged 9.4 ppg, 7.0 rpg, 2.3 apg, .83 bpg, .533% on 28.6 mpg. Meanwhile, Brown averaged 10.9 ppg, 7.4 rpg, 1.5 apg, .70 bpg, .489% on 30.3 mpg . You need to consider that Brown played more minutes than Bogut, which is why he had the extra bump in points and rebounds. Even then, Bogut still beats him on three of those five categories. And, it probably wouldn't be too far of a reach to say Bogut would have averaged more if they had the same minutes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kenyon Martin has had time to flourish with Jason freaking Kidd bro. If playing on his team won't get you beautiful looks then I don't know what to say. Look at K-Marts stats these past seasons w/o Kidd. He isn't looking too good at all now is he?</div>
And Kwame Brown hasn't? He's playing alongside Kobe Bryant, who commands a helluva lot of double teams. Brown should be getting a ridiculous amount of open shots.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Near the end of the season stint is all I'm going to say on this for now. We will see. I am not gonna bet on it but I am going to be wary of him having a good year next year.
</div>
Glad you could see it my way.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
No but its pretty ignorant to just brush it aside as easy to average those type of numbers.</div>
Ignorant or not, you can say he'll be putting up numbers at that level.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Not really easy but I can see where you are coming from.</div>
Thanks.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Dwight has no array of post moves to speak of and he still fairs pretty well. No doubt if he learned some his PPG would be bumped up but he was basically ****ed in Washington with all the controversy and trouble with teamates. In LA he looked better than he did before. He also (Don't quote me on this since I don't know for fact) might get help from Kareem Abdul Jabbar to get the post moves working who knows.</div>
Its different, in a sense that Dwight can rely on his strength, athleticism, and physical game to score. In fact, the Howard point is completely irrelevant. We're talking about Brown here, focus. Nevertheless, just for kicks- Kwame Brown can't rely on the same things Howard does obviously, but that shouldn't stop him from improving and working on your game. He's had four years to improve on it (not counting last season), how come nothing really has changed? I could care less if Kareem is coaching him sometime, he should be able to improve with regular coaches and himself.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I meant to say busts shouldn't be measure so much on their draft number. It should be on what they do bring. Kwame has brought the Lakers a defensive big with an ability to score down low. TD type scoring down low? By no means at all. I am in no way overrating Kwame. That to me shouldn't be bust material.</div>
Alright, so if Yao brought the exact same stuff as say, Chris Jeffries (WHO?), he wouldn't be a bust?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I wouldn't call Kwame or Mihm a bust yet but if Mihm was suppose to be a nightmare on defense and offense then hell yes I would consider that foo a bust considering he is neither.

I wouldn't overrate Kwame and say he is going to become a J O'Neal type player or bring 20/10 but he is definitly capable of bringing 15/10 in the triangle imo.</div>
Kwame WAS supposed to be a franchise player, like a Jermaine O'Neal type player like someone likened him to. So what the hell seperates him and Mihm (who you think is a bust)? Check out those high school records or whatever Lakers4Life expertly copy and pasted, obviously everyone had high expectations for Brown.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">And Kwame Brown hasn't? He's playing alongside Kobe Bryant, who commands a helluva lot of double teams. Brown should be getting a ridiculous amount of open shots.</div>

Erm Aznx....He is flourishing imo with Kobe. When he started starting at C he got a boost. The stats are on page 2 in the change statwise.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">You need to consider that Brown played more minutes than Bogut, which is why he had the extra bump in points and rebounds. Even then, Bogut still beats him on three of those five categories. And, it probably wouldn't be too far of a reach to say Bogut would have averaged more if they had the same minutes.</div>
More minutes like you said is more shots. More shots mean vary in FG percentage from the more shots. So while Bogut may have avg. more than Kwame his FG may have went down. Its uncertain.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">He's had four years to improve on it (not counting last season), how come nothing really has changed? I could care less if Kareem is coaching him sometime, he should be able to improve with regular coaches and himself.</div>
Like I said the controversy and the confidence loss must have really played a part. BelieI think getting helped by KAJ would have more of an effect than practicing on your own. Let me put it this way. Our up and coming guy Bynum. Would he be better with KAJ or by himself?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, so if Yao brought the exact same stuff as say, Chris Jeffries (WHO?), he wouldn't be a bust?</div>
This Chris Jefferies?

Thats a wide contrast. He is 6-8, Yao is 7-6 and plays C. If he put up those measly numbers than yes I would call him a bust. If a 7-6 big man like Yao who has a jumper and decent FT shot and some post moves can't avg atleast 10 ppg then yes by ALL means he is a bust. Plus look at the fact that Jefferies games and GS is sketchy as well as his sh***y mpg.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Aznx:</div><div class="quote_post">Kwame WAS supposed to be a franchise player, like a Jermaine O'Neal type player like someone likened him to. So what the hell seperates him and Mihm (who you think is a bust)? Check out those high school records or whatever Lakers4Life expertly copy and pasted, obviously everyone had high expectations for Brown.</div>

Kwames career isn't over yet. Its impossible to say if he will reach J O'Neal type calibur. Can he? Yeah. Realistically? I would say no. Like I said the most I can expect from him is like 15/10/1.3(BPG).

The reason I would consider Mihm a bust and Kwame not is because, maybe I'm clueless of the times, I've never heard Kwame being called a nightmare on defense as well as offense. Even so is it impossible that Mihm can reach that "nightmare" status? No. Realistically? I wouldn't say never but I highly doubt he'll be more than a 14/10/2 type guy. Is he bust with those statements? (Nightmare) Yes by all means. That does not mean he still isn't a serviceable big. Kwame as you said was supposed to be a franchise face. Who knows in the next couple year; Kwame, Odom, and Kobe may become the new trio of the Lakers.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Lakers4Life:</div><div class="quote_post">Jermaine O'neal

Kwame Brown

Take a look at their 1st 4 seasons.</div>

Jermaine O'Neal was picked 17th and was not looked to be a franchise player for the Blazers. Whereas, Kwame was picked #1 and was expected to become the franchise player. You can't compare the 1st 4 seasons because, as somebody pointed out, Kwame played more. Kwame is a bust for the Wizards, not the Lakers. But if he continues this mediocre performance then he will be a bust.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Erm Aznx....He is flourishing imo with Kobe. When he started starting at C he got a boost. The stats are on page 2 in the change statwise.</div>
Alright, so why hasn't he been "flourishing" when he played the powerforward spot? The open shots are still there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">More minutes like you said is more shots. More shots mean vary in FG percentage from the more shots. So while Bogut may have avg. more than Kwame his FG may have went down. Its uncertain.</div>
It would be illogical to think that his percentage would go down that much. He's shooting .533% for gods sake, its not like he's doing it by a fluke. I'd knock off the threes and make it at .500%, thats still pretty damn solid. Either way, he would still be beating Brown in rebounds, points, assists, and blocks, with the percentage being in question.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said the controversy and the confidence loss must have really played a part. BelieI think getting helped by KAJ would have more of an effect than practicing on your own. Let me put it this way. Our up and coming guy Bynum. Would he be better with KAJ or by himself?</div>
Obviously he would be better off with Abdul Jabar. However, I think you might have missed my point there. My point is that even without a hall of famer mentoring you, you still should be able to work on your own and improve at least a little. He really hasn't shown that in Washington, and only showed a good stretch on the Lakers.

Just wondering, enlighten me on what the whole controversy and confidence loss was? I assume its because he didn't really pan out as everyone expected. Well, my view point is that its a lame excuse. Tons of players have gone through arguably worse. Rashard Lewis for an example was supposed to be a lottery pick but then fell all the way down to the second round. If you watched it, it definitely looked like an agonizing experience. Wouldn't you say that also kills your confidence? Well then, look where Lewis is now. Even in his third year, he averaged close to fifteen points a game. He worked hard on his game to prove people wrong and played with a chip on his shoulder. Lewis never had a KAJ to work with either. Why hasn't Brown done the same?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Kwames career isn't over yet. Its impossible to say if he will reach J O'Neal type calibur. Can he? Yeah. Realistically? I would say no. Like I said the most I can expect from him is like 15/10/1.3(BPG).

The reason I would consider Mihm a bust and Kwame not is because, maybe I'm clueless of the times, I've never heard Kwame being called a nightmare on defense as well as offense. Even so is it impossible that Mihm can reach that "nightmare" status? No. Realistically? I wouldn't say never but I highly doubt he'll be more than a 14/10/2 type guy. Is he bust with those statements? (Nightmare) Yes by all means. That does not mean he still isn't a serviceable big. Kwame as you said was supposed to be a franchise face. Who knows in the next couple year; Kwame, Odom, and Kobe may become the new trio of the Lakers.
</div>
The Wizards' purpose when they drafted him wasn't 15/10/1.3. They expected him to be their franchise player. Obviously he's failed meeting their expectations so they traded him. Wouldn't that signify him as a bust? If someone has THAT much belief on you to be a franchise caliber player, wouldn't that pretty much be being called a "nightmare" on offense and defense? Plus, if you read the little tidbit Lakers4Life posted, you get the impression that they certainly believed he was on "nightmare" status as you put it. A franchise face is certainly not the same as a franchise player. A franchise player is someone you can build a team around and enjoy adequate success. Can you build a team around Brown? No.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, so why hasn't he been "flourishing" when he played the powerforward spot? The open shots are still there.</div>

Numerous reasons....

Triangle offense, Mihm being injured and allowing Kwame to be the prominant big down low, more passes to him, etc.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">It would be illogical to think that his percentage would go down that much. He's shooting .533% for gods sake, its not like he's doing it by a fluke. I'd knock off the threes and make it at .500%, thats still pretty damn solid. Either way, he would still be beating Brown in rebounds, points, assists, and blocks, with the percentage being in question.</div>

Like I said its uncertain. You may have misunderstood me or something. Who is to say an increase of 3 minutes will bring up your PPG from 9 to 11? Like I said its uncertain.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">My point is that even without a hall of famer mentoring you, you still should be able to work on your own and improve at least a little. He really hasn't shown that in Washington, and only showed a good stretch on the Lakers.</div>
Who is to say he didn't work on his game? Who is to say he did? Its just basing on speculation at this point.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Just wondering, enlighten me on what the whole controversy and confidence loss was? I assume its because he didn't really pan out as everyone expected. Well, my view point is that its a lame excuse. Tons of players have gone through arguably worse. Rashard Lewis for an example was supposed to be a lottery pick but then fell all the way down to the second round. If you watched it, it definitely looked like an agonizing experience. Wouldn't you say that also kills your confidence? Well then, look where Lewis is now. Even in his third year, he averaged close to fifteen points a game. He worked hard on his game to prove people wrong and played with a chip on his shoulder. </div>
Here it is.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">After his first three years in Washington, Brown's future with the Wizards appeared dubious, as he rejected a five-year, $30 million contract offer, electing instead to test the free-agent market when his contract expired after the season. In his fourth season, Brown took a noticeable step back in his development and was limited to 42 games due to injuries. His highest-scoring game of the season was only 19 points, compared to his season-high of 30 the year before, and he averaged just 7.0 points per game. Late in the season, criticism increased; he feuded with Gilbert Arenas, other teammates, and his coach Eddie Jordan. The local press did little to help the situation, and he became even less popular with fans.

During the first round of the 2005 playoffs, in which they played against the Chicago Bulls, the Wizards played a video before their first game of the series, in which Arenas instructed the fans not to boo Brown when he entered the game. The fans complied, even though Brown played only four minutes in the game. In the next several days after the game, Brown skipped a practice and a shootaround, as well as the next game, claiming that he thought he would punch Arenas if he entered the game. The Wizards responded by suspending Brown for the rest of the playoffs.</div>

Add on Jordan barking at him and you can expect a big loss in confidence and motivation as well as numerous other problems. The Rashard compared to this doesn't come close. People underestimating you puts you in a better position than overestimating you and the criticism thereafter.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Lewis never had a KAJ to work with either. Why hasn't Brown done the same?</div>
Again speculation. He may or may not have worked on his game. I heard he is close friends with J O'Neal and he works out with him during the off season.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">The Wizards' purpose when they drafted him wasn't 15/10/1.3. They expected him to be their franchise player. Obviously he's failed meeting their expectations so they traded him. Wouldn't that signify him as a bust? </div>
This is what I think Kwame can do realistically. This doesn't mean thats what he will be. Maybe he will prove the haters wrong and actually become something worthy of note, maybe he will still be a scrub. Who knows its uncertain but what I do know is that in his stint towards the end he started to show much improvement over his crappy years thus leading me to believe that this kid isn't so much of a bust afterall.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">If someone has THAT much belief on you to be a franchise caliber player, wouldn't that pretty much be being called a "nightmare" on offense and defense? </div>
Is Dwyane Wade a "nightmare" on offense AND defense? Is Dwight? Is Emeka? Is Bogut? Etc.

Saying your a franchise player in no way means your a "nightmare" on offense and defense.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">A franchise player is someone you can build a team around and enjoy adequate success. Can you build a team around Brown? No.</div>

Well techincally you build your team around anyone in the NBA, even Mark Madsen

Can you build a team around Brown? Yes. Get players that cover up his weaknesses and exploit his strengths.

Btw I like your sig and avatar. I have high hopes for Yi JianLian

 

Well, I guess Brian got the debate he was looking for...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Flashback:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, I guess Brian got the debate he was looking for...</div>

I'd say so

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Numerous reasons....

Triangle offense, Mihm being injured and allowing Kwame to be the prominant big down low, more passes to him, etc.</div>
Alright, so why couldn't Brown be a prominent big down low when he played powerforward without the absense of Mihm? Its not like Mihm gets a lot of minutes/touches either so I really don't think it makes that much of a difference.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said its uncertain. You may have misunderstood me or something. Who is to say an increase of 3 minutes will bring up your PPG from 9 to 11? Like I said its uncertain.</div>
When you talk about a player's future, everything is pretty much uncertain as you put it, thats a given. However, we have to assume and infer based on the current statistics they are putting up in order to derive a hypothesis as to what they are most likely to put up the coming seasons. Sure its uncertain Bogut would do better with more minutes, but based on his current statistics (only a couple rebounds under Brown) we can pretty much assume or say that he'll most likely fair better given more minutes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who is to say he didn't work on his game? Who is to say he did? Its just basing on speculation at this point.</div>
If he actually worked on his game, you'd at least see some progression and improvement from him over the past five years. A good measure for this would be his free throw percentage. He went from .707, to .668, then .683, then .574, and finally down to .545. Seriously, you would think he's actually getting progressively worse. And its not even that hard to improve your free throw shooting either. Just shoot a bunch before or after practice. I would seriously assume he's not working on his game given those facts.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Add on Jordan barking at him and you can expect a big loss in confidence and motivation as well as numerous other problems. The Rashard compared to this doesn't come close. People underestimating you puts you in a better position than overestimating you and the criticism thereafter.</div>
Okay, so Kwame Brown skips practice and a game. And whose fault do you think that was? Part of being a player is showing up to every game, its part of his freakin job. He should have taken responsibility and smoothed the problem out by talking with his teammates and coach. Instead, he takes the other best available option- telling everyone if he entered the game he would have punched Arenas. On top of all that, Arenas even told all the fans not to boo him. If you really think about it, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think the feud itself was started by Brown. Even if it wasn't, he wasn't exactly taking the best actions to fix the problem.

I admit, having Michael Jordan bark at you on your game is pretty bad, I'll give him that. However, life goes on. You don't just go through the motions and mope about it. I think the majority of people would have taken that criticism and used it as a driving force for getting better. Personally, I would have just worked a lot more on my game to stick it back in Jordan's face, but whatever, that's just me.

I was using the Lewis comparison because in essence, they were pretty similar. Both took a big hit on their confidence and both were pretty hyped up. However, while Lewis used his problems to motivate him and improve his game, Kwame Brown went and assumedly did little to prove his doubters wrong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This is what I think Kwame can do realistically. This doesn't mean thats what he will be. Maybe he will prove the haters wrong and actually become something worthy of note, maybe he will still be a scrub. Who knows its uncertain but what I do know is that in his stint towards the end he started to show much improvement over his crappy years thus leading me to believe that this kid isn't so much of a bust afterall.</div>
Two seasons ago, around the second half of the season, Mike Dunleavy Jr. played much better and seemed like he was ready to break out the next season. However, this season he's actually done worse with less points and with even lower shooting percentages. Another great example. Two seasons ago the Sixers were in the playoffs in the first round against Detroit. Samuel Dalembert played out of his mind and had something like the second most rebounds in the playoffs. Last season, he completely sucked it up. Thus, what I'm trying to say is that its hard to base judgements off a couple games or a "stint towards the end".
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Is Dwyane Wade a "nightmare" on offense AND defense? Is Dwight? Is Emeka? Is Bogut? Etc.

Saying your a franchise player in no way means your a "nightmare" on offense and defense.</div>
First of all, I don't really think Okafor isn't a franchise player, but thats a debate all on its own. In highschool, Dwight certainly played like a "nightmare" on offense and defense, which led to everyone hyping him up- which is one of the reasons why he got the number one pick in the draft. Since I haven't really watched Bogut when he was in highschool or whatever, I can only go on how he did in college. During his tenure at Utah, Bogut averaged something like 20.4 points and 12.2 rebounds along with 1.9 blocks and 2.3 assists. Certainly, I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to say he put up much better numbers in high school playing against lower than his level competition. Same probably goes for Wade.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well techincally you build your team around anyone in the NBA, even Mark Madsen

Can you build a team around Brown? Yes. Get players that cover up his weaknesses and exploit his strengths.</div>
But will you personally do that? Sure that he would bring you success either financially or in the playoffs?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Btw I like your sig and avatar. I have high hopes for Yi JianLian</div>
Thanks, hope he doesn't turn out a bust like Brown...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Thanks, hope he doesn't turn out a bust like Brown... </div>


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">But will you personally do that? Sure that he would bring you success either financially or in the playoffs?</div>

I don't know if he would bring me success. Its really uncertain. He seemed to look good in this years playoffs with the Lakers.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Thus, what I'm trying to say is that its hard to base judgements off a couple games or a "stint towards the end".</div>
I'd say otherwise, its showing what they are perfectly capable of. But yeah I'll agree with what you said and leave it at that.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">I was using the Lewis comparison because in essence, they were pretty similar. Both took a big hit on their confidence and both were pretty hyped up.</div>
Well the Lewis thing is completely different imo.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">I admit, having Michael Jordan bark at you on your game is pretty bad, I'll give him that. However, life goes on. You don't just go through the motions and mope about it. I think the majority of people would have taken that criticism and used it as a driving force for getting better. Personally, I would have just worked a lot more on my game to stick it back in Jordan's face, but whatever, that's just me.</div>

Again who is to say he is and isn't? I don't know the guy nor do I know whether he "mopes" about it. He may be driving himself, I wouldn't know.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay, so Kwame Brown skips practice and a game. And whose fault do you think that was? Part of being a player is showing up to every game, its part of his freakin job. </div>
I know you don't believe what you just said bro. He had a feud going with a lot of his teamates and Jordan was being a complete d*** to him bro. I wouldn't have gone either. If all your doing is criticizing me and my game then leave me the f*** alone. I'm not gonna go into work when all these people look down upon me.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Even if it wasn't, he wasn't exactly taking the best actions to fix the problem. </div>
Oh and everyone was using their best option by criticizing him and calling him a bust?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">If he actually worked on his game, you'd at least see some progression and improvement from him over the past five years. A good measure for this would be his free throw percentage. He went from .707, to .668, then .683, then .574, and finally down to .545. Seriously, you would think he's actually getting progressively worse. </div>
70-99 (.707)
145-217 (.668)
228-334 (.683)
74-129 (.574)
128-235 (.545)

Low attempts most likely 80% of the time in the NBA are going to result in 2 things for stat sheets. Really good or really bad percentages. Look at Tyson Chandler. He is averaging practically .500 in FG percentage. If he went from .500 to .600 would you consider he has vastly improved? No. He is still averaging like 300 FG's per season. Until he shoots more than he has before for a couple years straight than we can safely start assuming and guessing on improvement.

Let me take 2 years of Kwame.
02-03 and 05-06.
145-217 (.668) for 02-03
128-235 (.545) for 05-06

Because its such a small number the percent can flux real easily. Add 18 to 05-06 to raise it to 02-03's made numbers. 145-235. That small addition raises the lowly .545 to .617. Keep in mind that he attempted LESS than the 05-06 year in 02-03. You can't base improvement on such small attempts. Its like a small kid shoots 10 FT's. 1 day he'll get 50% and the next he'll get 100%. Is that improvement?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, so why couldn't Brown be a prominent big down low when he played powerforward without the absense of Mihm? Its not like Mihm gets a lot of minutes/touches either so I really don't think it makes that much of a difference.</div>
It actually does whether you believe it or not. What little touches Mihm got down low now goes to Kwame when he went down thus adding his touches.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure its uncertain Bogut would do better with more minutes, but based on his current statistics (only a couple rebounds under Brown) we can pretty much assume or say that he'll most likely fair better given more minutes.</div>
Most likely he will get the plus .5 in rpg in an extra 3 mpg to top Browns top of 7.4 but I don't know for sure even if I was assuming. I'm a real iffy person when saying "so and so" is better than "so and so" so excuse my stubborness

Like I said before.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Franchise4Ever:</div><div class="quote_post">To LA he is not a bust. To Washington he is a bust.

Agree to disagree everyone?</div>

 

There was alot of hype that surround Kwame because he was picked #1 out of High School by Michael Jordan himself... I feel sorry for Kwame at times. SO much weight on his shoulders.. He can definately be classified a bust according to what he has done in Washington, but he has the opportunity to shine here in LA. Thats all that really matters at this point.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trench:</div><div class="quote_post">There was alot of hype that surround Kwame because he was picked #1 out of High School by Michael Jordan himself... I feel sorry for Kwame at times. SO much weight on his shoulders.. He can definately be classified a bust according to what he has done in Washington, but he has the opportunity to shine here in LA. Thats all that really matters at this point.</div>

Thats what Chutney said and I agree.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
I know you don't believe what you just said bro. He had a feud going with a lot of his teamates and Jordan was being a complete d*** to him bro. I wouldn't have gone either. If all your doing is criticizing me and my game then leave me the f*** alone. I'm not gonna go into work when all these people look down upon me.
</div>
Well first of all, the Jordan thing was before the feud, since Arenas was on the team by then. And secondly, at work, you're probably going to have to deal with a lot of assholes or maybe even in a broader sense, in life, its going to be inevitable. Whether or not I truly believe that, is irrelevant. But here's my point, even Arenas (who apparently was someone involved) told the people in the stadium not to boo Brown, so to me that means he's trying to make amends for whatever happened. And personally I do believe that. There wouldn't be any other reason for it. So why couldn't Kwame Brown take that step too? Instead he goes and tells the media he would have punched Arenas if he entered the game.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Oh and everyone was using their best option by criticizing him and calling him a bust? </div>
Who are you referring to, the players or the media? I assume the media since you really don't know what the players would say to Brown. But anyway, thats what the media does. They WILL go out and skewer you if you don't live up to expectations. Hell, there were even tons of harsh articles on Yao. They're even flame a player for having a string of bad games. Certainly its not their best moral option, but its their job.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Low attempts most likely 80% of the time in the NBA are going to result in 2 things for stat sheets. Really good or really bad percentages. Look at Tyson Chandler. He is averaging practically .500 in FG percentage. If he went from .500 to .600 would you consider he has vastly improved? No. He is still averaging like 300 FG's per season. Until he shoots more than he has before for a couple years straight than we can safely start assuming and guessing on improvement.

Let me take 2 years of Kwame.
02-03 and 05-06.
145-217 (.668) for 02-03
128-235 (.545) for 05-06

Because its such a small number the percent can flux real easily. Add 18 to 05-06 to raise it to 02-03's made numbers. 145-235. That small addition raises the lowly .545 to .617. Keep in mind that he attempted LESS than the 05-06 year in 02-03. You can't base improvement on such small attempts. Its like a small kid shoots 10 FT's. 1 day he'll get 50% and the next he'll get 100%. Is that improvement?</div>
If you take around the same number of attempts for anything and still get around the same percentage, I think you can safely say thats how good or bad they are shooting. I understand what you're getting at however. Its true it would be harder to tell whats going on when you're comparing two seasons where one season he attempts say 500 and the other around 200. But I think you're doing the calculations wrong for the Kwame example. First you need to take .668 and multiply it by 18, which gives you the numbers he made. Then, just add that on to made with the other portion onto the attempts. Like seriously, he's not going to just go and piss 18 free throws more point blank. But truth be told, I'm kinda confused on what you're trying to prove on that one . The small kid is doing it on a daily basis. Meanwhile, we're comparing Kwame Brown's on yearly amounts of attempts...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
It actually does whether you believe it or not. What little touches Mihm got down low now goes to Kwame when he went down thus adding his touches.</div>
Alright, so Kwame replaces Mihm and moves to center. I assume Odom moves to powerforward (doesn't really matter in what I'm trying to get at). Then wouldn't whoever moves into the lineup for small forward be getting some touches? Thus, wouldn't it kind of negate a bit of "what little touches Mihm got down low now goes to Kwame"?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Most likely he will get the plus .5 in rpg in an extra 3 mpg to top Browns top of 7.4 but I don't know for sure even if I was assuming. I'm a real iffy person when saying "so and so" is better than "so and so" so excuse my stubborness

Like I said before.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Franchise4Ever:
To LA he is not a bust. To Washington he is a bust.

Agree to disagree everyone?</div></div>
Sure. But now to the quoted quote part. My personal belief is that the term "bust" is thrown on the draftee. He was a draftee of Washington, and based upon whatever hype, expectations, use, etc they had on him, then he would be considered a bust. He's not a draftee of LA, therefore they can't really categorize him as not a bust. They certainly can say he's a decent role player, but I don't think the term really fits on other teams. Probably just me though.

Anyway, here's my personal take on this, if it ever got muddled in the exchange. Its that there were high expectations for Brown- franchise player, at least a 20/10 guy, someone they can use as a foundation for their team. Thus, they picked him number one overall. Certainly, he really hasn't done that yet in the NBA. So therefore, until he does at least above average (15/10), I'm going to have to say he's a bust. And like Trench/Chutney said, it doesn't really matter if he's considered a bust. He can still have a good decent role player esque career for the Lakers or whatever team he ends up on. Being called a "bust" doesn't change what numbers he puts up. So in actuality, I guess we pretty much agree that being called a bust doesn't really effect what he accomplishes, its just that we're arguing about whether or not he should be called a bust in the first place.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyway, here's my personal take on this, if it ever got muddled in the exchange. Its that there were high expectations for Brown- franchise player, at least a 20/10 guy, someone they can use as a foundation for their team. Thus, they picked him number one overall. Certainly, he really hasn't done that yet in the NBA. So therefore, until he does at least above average (15/10), I'm going to have to say he's a bust. And like Trench/Chutney said, it doesn't really matter if he's considered a bust. He can still have a good decent role player esque career for the Lakers or whatever team he ends up on. Being called a "bust" doesn't change what numbers he puts up. So in actuality, I guess we pretty much agree that being called a bust doesn't really effect what he accomplishes, its just that we're arguing about whether or not he should be called a bust in the first place.</div>

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Franchise4Ever:</div><div class="quote_post">To LA he is not a bust. To Washington he is a bust.</div>



I classify bust as not living up to his expectations. Right everyone agrees. But I do it differently, not sure if anyone else does. When the Lakers got him they were probably hoping for a big or some type of role player. If he did not provide than I would consider him a bust.

Like if say Bynum put up great averages for LA then got traded to Minny and put up the worst you've ever seen. I'd consider him a bust for Minny and not a bust for LA. Kind of get me? I'd only do this with young players naturally.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">Who are you referring to, the players or the media? </div>
Both. I'm sure the front desk, coaches, etc. criticized him on his expectations and game.

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Anzx:</div><div class="quote_post">But I think you're doing the calculations wrong for the Kwame example. First you need to take .668 and multiply it by 18, which gives you the numbers he made. </div>

Let me clear this up before we agree to disagree so I don't like like an idiot at math

I was saying in 02-03 he made 145-217. In 05-06 he made 128-235. I was saying raise the 128 05-06 FTs made, to 145, 02-03 FTs made(17 difference.....so yeah I made a mistake by 1 ). I was saying by adding such a small number(17) on such few attempts the percent will flux greatly.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Like if say Bynum put up great averages for LA then got traded to Minny and put up the worst you've ever seen. I'd consider him a bust for Minny and not a bust for LA. Kind of get me? I'd only do this with young players naturally.
</div>
Alright, I get what you're getting at. We just have different opinions of how the "bust" term should be thrown around. Never heard that one though.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">

Let me clear this up before we agree to disagree so I don't like like an idiot at math

I was saying in 02-03 he made 145-217. In 05-06 he made 128-235. I was saying raise the 128 05-06 FTs made, to 145, 02-03 FTs made(17 difference.....so yeah I made a mistake by 1 ). I was saying by adding such a small number(17) on such few attempts the percent will flux greatly.</div>
Agreed to disagree (on what again?) S'all good...