2005 Free Agents

Discussion in 'Golden State Warriors' started by Custodianrules2, May 3, 2005.

  1. REREM

    REREM JBB JustBBall Member

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    Again-to emphasise-Diogu 2.3 shotblocks....Petro 0.6 shotblocks--- who defends in the paint,in the real world? One guy is a star-one guy is a backup...I'll spend my lottery pick on the star,We got rd 2 picks to add backups.
     
  2. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Diogu is my favorite prospect in the draft but just to make the argument fair, Diogu plays in the Pac 10 which doesn't have many great big guys. These euro teens on the other hand play only a few minutes a game against proffesional basketball players. IMO Diogu is still the answer because we need a sure thing and at the very least, Diogu is an above average rebounder, which translates well to the NBA. We dont need anymore gambles or guys who are years away form contributing.
     
  3. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Frankly, I don't think what they did in college or euro shouldn't be considered more than a footnote, and shouldn't be used as whether they can be a star in NBA or not.

    Can you guess who they are?

    24.4 pg / 13.1 reb / 57 fg% / 49 ft% / 6.4 blk 6'9" Colgate

    20.9 pg / 9.9 reb / 51 fg% / 80 ft% / 1.8 blk 6'10" NC State

    20.2 pg / 13.2 reb / 60 fg% / 71 ft% / 0.97 blk 6'7" Drexel

    11.0 pg / 5.1 reb / 58 fg% / 56 ft% / 7'1" Euro

    3.3 pg / 4.8 reb / 61 fg% / 26 ft% / 1.5 blk 6'11" Euro

    12.7 pg / 8.6 reb / 6'9" Euro

    8.5 pg / 2.5 reb / 41 fg% / 67 ft% / 6'6" Euro

    If you compare them by their stats like how you did with Petro and Diego, there is no question that we should draft first top three guys. Like Diego, they were stars in their colleges, and their stats just crushes bottom 4 guys' stats. However, thier NBA career didn't exactly pan out like their college careers. In contrast, next four guys have rather poor to pitiful stat in Euro, and you certainly don't think they will be a star in NBA, just by judging for their stats. However, two of them are already stars, and I am sure you pick rest of them instead of first top 3 guys.

    Foyle
    Fuller
    M. Rose
    Gasol
    Biedrins
    Kilirenko
    Pietrus

    First, you simply can't compare their college stats and euro stats, because their competitions are vastly different. In college, age difference between collge players are 4 years at most and top players continue to leave by either grauduation or early nba entry. Therefore, you are bound to dominate in few years, if you have enough talent in college. In contrast, age difference in euro league can be up to 20 years. So, even if you possess NBA raw talent, you just can't expect 16-19 years old teenagers to dominate the league against grown up and experienced pro players. To make things worse for them, euro league is a pro league, so if you can't produce in the league, you won't get to play just like NBA. That's why Biedrins and Pietrus' stats are pitiful, and even Gasol and Kilirenko's stat are mediocre at best. Of course, Petro only blocked 0.6 because he averaged 13 mins, contrast to Diego, who averaged 2.3 blk in 36.4 mins. Also, if you look at his stat carefully, in 2002-2003, he averaged 1.8, and 1.75 in different league in 2003-2004. I don't know how many mins he got, but judging from his pg, when he got mins to play, he averaged close to 2 block per game. And, since Foyle blocked over 6 per game, and even Fuller blocked 1.8 in college, so I won't put too much on Diego's 2.3 blk and believe he will do same in NBA with 6'8" frame.

    Second, You can be a dominating force in college and still can't do a thing in NBA, while you can be just OK college player and be a superstar in NBA, because competition between those two are vastly different. After all, less than 3% of college players are drafted, and that doesn't mean half of those college players will play single min in NBA. That's why people concentrate on their athlatism, skill level and mental state, more than their achievement in college, because those ultimately determines whether they will be successful in NBA or not. You can still dominate college, even if you don't have enough talent for NBA, because talent level is quite low in college. That's why people don't see guys like May or Diego as a star material, even though they dominated the college level, and countless players who averaged 20/10 in college doesn't even get drafted, because they just don't possess enough athlatism or skill level to compete in NBA. You can say both Barkeley and Brand, who possessed similar body, succeeded in NBA, so they also can. However, people already saw a superstar material and athlatism to overcome their rather short body frame from them before the draft, and they were drafted 5th and 1st respectably. However, people don't see those qualities from both Diego and May yet. In contrst, players like M. Williams may be a top 3 pick, even though his achievement in college was minimum, because people believe he has a talent to be a star in NBA. And, guys like Carter, Arenas, Sprewell, euro players, and number of other players get drafted sorely on their athlatism and potential.

    Certainly, there has been many euro busts in NBA, and drafting them is not a safe pick to say the least. But, that doesn't mean drafting a college player with impressive stats are the answer either, because that method also produced countless busts and disappointment as well. When it comes to NBA draft, all it matters is whther he is athlathic, has enough skill, raw potential, good heart and wort ethic, and that's why I believe players college stats or euro stats should be considered as a footnote. I can't say who's better than who at this point, because workouts for those players haven't started yet. My opinion on both Taft, Petro, May and Diego can change dramatically, once they make a noise in workout, but until then, all I have is reports from websites, and I can't see either May or Diego being more than a roll players in the league. And, since we can afford drafting complete bust with this year's pick, I would like to draft a high reward/risk player, who has a potential to be a star or fill our needs...
     
  4. Zhone

    Zhone JBB JustBBall Member

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    Good analysis, Kwan. One other thing about Euros is that teams will physically hide their players to prevent NBA scounts from getting a look at them. They'll put them behind curtains to practice and not put them out on the floor if they see an NBA scout in attendance. They even sacrifice their teams to sit the rookie in extreme cases. NBA scouts are crafty, so they see these things and generally these practices have lessened. Still, a lot of young players get stuck on the bench to prevent the NBA from taking away their players. If you were the owner, would you like your best potential players being taken away from you for only cash compensation?

    Just something to think about when hearing about European players. You still have to scout them personally, but there are always considerations at least when it comes to stats. Luckily we have a lot of TV access to the NCAA, but I usually have to pay through the nose to get decent tapes of foreign games. That's why I borrow them from my friend instead. [​IMG]
     
  5. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    Kwan, that's a very good, convincing argument about how stats can be misleading.

    REREM also has some good points about underrated college players dropping low, I think the argument can go either way depending on what criteria you're judging the talent on, but there's got to be a reason why professional scouting agencies ranked a guy like Elton Brand so high and Kenny Thomas so low back in 1999. Both were around 6'8, relatively the same weight (5 lb difference out of school). Kenny was a senior out of New Mexico and Elton was a sophmore coming out of Duke (stronger competition). Elton played slower but he was no sloth, was longer and used his bodth width to create separation in the paint and get rebounds and block shots. Kenny could do inside work in college and shoot facing the basket, drive, and was athletic for his bulk. Both could rebound, although Brand was quite the monster on the offensive boards. Kenny could play either small forward or power forward. Even though Kenny Thomas is a different kind of player than Elton Brand, he can still be a 16/10 player. On defense, who would you rather have if there's a flip of the coin that Digou could fall more toward the Kenny Thomas type player? Troy Murphy could probably give you 16/10 and not be so disadvantaged against post players. Thomas is probably a better defender right now, but there's only so much you can ask from a guy 3 inches shorter than the competition along with the lack of wingspan.

    It's tough trying to figure out what kind of player Ike Diogu will be at 6'7-6'8 because he's never been against tough nba level big men. But he could be a successful player, but not a star and maybe not defensively as the guy we're probably looking for.

    Diogu sounds too much like Kenny, when we need Elton type presence. We need the shotblocking /post defender who can get us 20/10 consistently. If the 20 points is an ugly 20 points, it doesn't matter so long as he gets touch fouls on the drop step or the spin move. Digou gets to the line quite a bit, but can he do it playing power forward? Those are questions whether you have faith in his game or not that he'll succeed at the next level.

    Personally, I think if we had the #9, we should still look into guys like Tiago Splitter or Chris Taft, guys with huge potential. That is, if they are still on the board. Wizards also own the rights to Kwame and may want a draft pick if they can get anything at all, so that's more potential. It's pretty obvious the Wizards organization has made a stand and Kwame doesn't want to be a part of it now. It seems like damage done that's beyond repair if they just ban him from the playoffs like that. So whatever happens, the Wizards lose trading leverage because Kwame has no use to the Wizards. Somebody's draft pick is going to be used. It might even be the Knicks. Actually I think it will be the Knicks, knowing Isiah. Might as just get the guy we think can hang in the NBA at least in a few years or trade the pick for somebody else we do need. Anyway, I digress, but you know don't which one of these young guys can suddenly go off because they've found the missing pieces to live up to the hype. I mean when you're both tall, strong, and athletic and have all the skills both offensively/defensively, that's just scary. I think that's who we're looking for and the NBA is very picky on the physical requirements, especially for undersized players that fit right between not being able to play small forward or power forward because they are either too small/weak or too slow.
     
  6. wtwalker77

    wtwalker77 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Kwan, I guessed right on Foyle, Fuller, Rose, and Biedrins (the ft% was a dead give away), but missed on the rest (the only other guess was that Kirilenko's stats were Peja's).

    As always, I totally agree with everything you say.

    There's no way to compare euros to college players until individual workouts because until then it's like comparing apples to oranges. Think about it, have you ever heard of an NCAA team not playing a freshman because they didn't want him to declare for the draft? Well, it happens all the time in europe.

    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">Diogu is my favorite prospect in the draft but just to make the argument fair, Diogu plays in the Pac 10 which doesn't have many great big guys. These euro teens on the other hand play only a few minutes a game against proffesional basketball players. IMO Diogu is still the answer because we need a sure thing and at the very least, Diogu is an above average rebounder, which translates well to the NBA. We dont need anymore gambles or guys who are years away form contributing.</div>
    Run, can you explain this to me a bit more?

    I understand you like Diogu, but what makes him the best fit for the Warriors in your mind?

    I also want to know why you think the Warriors need a sure thing right now and not a gamble?

    I ask because I think the Warriors should take the complete opposite approach to this draft. The way I see it, the W's are on their way to having some really nice chemistry (especially between Baron, Richardson, and Pietrus) and they seem to have a pretty defined playing rotation. Why would you want to mess that up by adding a guy who no one outside of this board is talking about as a potential allstar, but is ready enough to come in and want playing time right away?

    I'd rather draft a guy with big upside who can't play right away and stash him away for a few years, whether it be on the bench or in europe. They don't need to draft someone to shore up the frontline, they can just sign a big man with part of the MLE. Which is actually a better move anyway, since the vet big man will be gone in a year or two when Biedrins is ready for big minutes.

    Looking at it that way, I'd say the Warriors should be looking at Andriuskevicius, Aleksandrov, Green, and Webster. I admittedly know very little about any of these guys beyond what I've read from espn insider, nbadraft.net, and other sources. I honestly am not that concerned with whay their specific skill set is. All I care about is that these guys have a lot of upside and aren't ready to compete yet. In fact, if the W's do draft a euro, I don't even want them to bring him to the team for at least a year.

    If you couldn't read between the lines of this post, I'll make a few things clear, which are the reasoning behind the post:

    1)I like the team the Warriors have now.

    2) I have a ton of confidence in Biedrins and Pietrus.

    3) I don't have a high opinion of most of the college big men this year, though that's mainly because I'm really skeptical of how tall Diogu, May, and Simeon actually are. If any of 'em are closer to 6'9 than 6'7, I'm open to changing my mind.

    4) I'm very open to the idea of trading this pick, but the only thing I want to trade for is cap relief. If Mullin can package the #9 with Fisher for a back up pg with a shorter contract, I'm all for it. Hopefully Mullin is ready to admit that he made a mistake signing Fisher.
     
  7. upsidedownside7

    upsidedownside7 JBB JustBBall Member

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    Pass me some of that crack your smoking because Diogu will not go top 5. What a joke. He's been waiting to declare all of this year but it's 2 weeks before the lottery and he still hasn't hired an agent, his stock hasn't gone up, there were rumors about withdrawing his name and there are concerns about his lack of size. I think it's safe to say he won't go top 5. He won't go top ten. Elton Brand at 6'8 has the combination of skill,muscular frame, strength and athleticism that Malik Rose, Kenny Thomas and Diogu will never have.

    Outside the top 4 picks this year there is no sure thing. Diogu is not a guaranteed superstar. It's not even close because there's only Paul & Bogut who are guaranteed to make an impact next year.
     
  8. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">
    As always, I totally agree with everything you say.
    </div> I think a lot of people would be following Kwan because over the years, he's called it almost every single time and he explains everything he's thinking concisely.


    <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
    1)I like the team the Warriors have now.

    2) I have a ton of confidence in Biedrins and Pietrus.

    3) I don't have a high opinion of most of the college big men this year, though that's mainly because I'm really skeptical of how tall Diogu, May, and Simeon actually are. If any of 'em are closer to 6'9 than 6'7, I'm open to changing my mind.

    4) I'm very open to the idea of trading this pick, but the only thing I want to trade for is cap relief. If Mullin can package the #9 with Fisher for a back up pg with a shorter contract, I'm all for it. Hopefully Mullin is ready to admit that he made a mistake signing Fisher.</div> I'm pretty much in the same boat as liking the 9 man team that finally has some real chemistry and talent, but also having the motives of trying to find some cap relief and some way to upgrade our defense or our low post presence. Our high lotto pick comes at a good time because we have some leverage to make some changes for the future or improve our talent. We're not forced to do anything, which is good. Even having an old guy stick around for two years on our team like Dale Davis who was just tough inside was nice, but there's very few veterans like that, not in this year's free agent market. It would be nice getting a guy like Antonio Davis or PJ Brown or some old one-time allstar that plays tough D and knows the game but the teams would have to bite on a second rounder or an expiring contract.

    Terrific posts btw and glad to see you back on the board, MVP [​IMG]
     
  9. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting wtwalker77:</div><div class="quote_post">Run, can you explain this to me a bit more?

    I understand you like Diogu, but what makes him the best fit for the Warriors in your mind?

    I also want to know why you think the Warriors need a sure thing right now and not a gamble?</div>

    IMO hes the best fit for the Ws because he can do everything and already has a post game. He is a good rebounder and defender and probably the second most skilled big guy in the draft. All of the competition double and triple team him but he scores a ton of points anyway. He has a nice mid range J as well, which would allow him to play SF if need be. His athleticism is under-rated, many speak of him like he couldn't jump over a phone book but I'd say his athleticsim is pretty damn good, not Pietrus good but hes got plenty of athleticsim. Most profiles of him say at worst he will be Kenny Thomas or a rich man's Malik Rose and at best Elton Brand or Zach Randolf with a better attitude. Of course, these arent the most accurate pieces of information but still, thats pretty impressive.

    A sure thing would be better now because we are done rebuilding. When was the last time we had such a good looking team going into the next season? When was the last time we had a superstar? We have too much young talent as it is, a good, effective guy who would be done developing in a year would be better than waiting 3 years for a guy to be a solid player. If we signed a guy who is "pure potential" but no good right now, we would have to worry about who we sign and let go because of a guy who may or may not become a starter quality guy. Zarko, Pietrus, Dunleavy, White, Skita, and Biedrins are all still developing. Do we need another guy to develop for years to come? I'd rather know what we are getting than draft a guy like Andriuskevicius who looks like Skita already. Baron isn't getting any younger, how long can we wait for our draft pick to develop, if he does at all, before Baron is too old to carry our team?
     
  10. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I'd also like to point out that we all probably dont have much of a clue who goes where in the draft (except maybe the top 3) so arguing about it before workouts is kind of stupid. Once workouts begin we may see that Diogu is a stiff or that May is the best guy available in the entire draft, who knows? I may end up eating my words. We just dont know right now, but this does make for good debate.
     
  11. .cabangbang

    .cabangbang BBW Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kwan1031:</div><div class="quote_post">Frankly, I don't think what they did in college or euro shouldn't be considered more than a footnote, and shouldn't be used as whether they can be a star in NBA or not.

    Can you guess who they are?

    24.4 pg / 13.1 reb / 57 fg% / 49 ft% / 6.4 blk 6'9" Colgate

    20.9 pg / 9.9 reb / 51 fg% / 80 ft% / 1.8 blk 6'10" NC State

    20.2 pg / 13.2 reb / 60 fg% / 71 ft% / 0.97 blk 6'7" Drexel

    11.0 pg / 5.1 reb / 58 fg% / 56 ft% / 7'1" Euro

    3.3 pg / 4.8 reb / 61 fg% / 26 ft% / 1.5 blk 6'11" Euro

    12.7 pg / 8.6 reb / 6'9" Euro

    8.5 pg / 2.5 reb / 41 fg% / 67 ft% / 6'6" Euro

    If you compare them by their stats like how you did with Petro and Diego, there is no question that we should draft first top three guys. Like Diego, they were stars in their colleges, and their stats just crushes bottom 4 guys' stats. However, thier NBA career didn't exactly pan out like their college careers. In contrast, next four guys have rather poor to pitiful stat in Euro, and you certainly don't think they will be a star in NBA, just by judging for their stats. However, two of them are already stars, and I am sure you pick rest of them instead of first top 3 guys.

    Foyle
    Fuller
    M. Rose
    Gasol
    Biedrins
    Kilirenko
    Pietrus

    First, you simply can't compare their college stats and euro stats, because their competitions are vastly different. In college, age difference between collge players are 4 years at most and top players continue to leave by either grauduation or early nba entry. Therefore, you are bound to dominate in few years, if you have enough talent in college. In contrast, age difference in euro league can be up to 20 years. So, even if you possess NBA raw talent, you just can't expect 16-19 years old teenagers to dominate the league against grown up and experienced pro players. To make things worse for them, euro league is a pro league, so if you can't produce in the league, you won't get to play just like NBA. That's why Biedrins and Pietrus' stats are pitiful, and even Gasol and Kilirenko's stat are mediocre at best. Of course, Petro only blocked 0.6 because he averaged 13 mins, contrast to Diego, who averaged 2.3 blk in 36.4 mins. Also, if you look at his stat carefully, in 2002-2003, he averaged 1.8, and 1.75 in different league in 2003-2004. I don't know how many mins he got, but judging from his pg, when he got mins to play, he averaged close to 2 block per game. And, since Foyle blocked over 6 per game, and even Fuller blocked 1.8 in college, so I won't put too much on Diego's 2.3 blk and believe he will do same in NBA with 6'8" frame.

    Second, You can be a dominating force in college and still can't do a thing in NBA, while you can be just OK college player and be a superstar in NBA, because competition between those two are vastly different. After all, less than 3% of college players are drafted, and that doesn't mean half of those college players will play single min in NBA. That's why people concentrate on their athlatism, skill level and mental state, more than their achievement in college, because those ultimately determines whether they will be successful in NBA or not. You can still dominate college, even if you don't have enough talent for NBA, because talent level is quite low in college. That's why people don't see guys like May or Diego as a star material, even though they dominated the college level, and countless players who averaged 20/10 in college doesn't even get drafted, because they just don't possess enough athlatism or skill level to compete in NBA. You can say both Barkeley and Brand, who possessed similar body, succeeded in NBA, so they also can. However, people already saw a superstar material and athlatism to overcome their rather short body frame from them before the draft, and they were drafted 5th and 1st respectably. However, people don't see those qualities from both Diego and May yet. In contrst, players like M. Williams may be a top 3 pick, even though his achievement in college was minimum, because people believe he has a talent to be a star in NBA. And, guys like Carter, Arenas, Sprewell, euro players, and number of other players get drafted sorely on their athlatism and potential.

    Certainly, there has been many euro busts in NBA, and drafting them is not a safe pick to say the least. But, that doesn't mean drafting a college player with impressive stats are the answer either, because that method also produced countless busts and disappointment as well. When it comes to NBA draft, all it matters is whther he is athlathic, has enough skill, raw potential, good heart and wort ethic, and that's why I believe players college stats or euro stats should be considered as a footnote. I can't say who's better than who at this point, because workouts for those players haven't started yet. My opinion on both Taft, Petro, May and Diego can change dramatically, once they make a noise in workout, but until then, all I have is reports from websites, and I can't see either May or Diego being more than a roll players in the league. And, since we can afford drafting complete bust with this year's pick, I would like to draft a high reward/risk player, who has a potential to be a star or fill our needs...</div>
    Excellent analysis there Kwan. Foyle's stats were amazing in college. 6.4 blocks and 24 points a game. What year was Foyle when he did that? Also, would you take Bogut with the first pick or Paul? Why?
     
  12. REREM

    REREM JBB JustBBall Member

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    My point is still that Diogu is more like a bigger S Marion,C Barkly,a bit more active than a lot of the 6-8 wide bodies. If this crop of Euros HAD played on touring national teams,had played in the Olympics,orat least had 10 ppg,6 - 8 rbd stats,I'd cut 'em some slack. These guys mostly are so green,its all "guess what's in the bag". Going back to Oscar Robertson and Jerry West,what a guy does in college has been the main yardstick. Imports,HS guys,freshmen-you need to guess. A reliable pattern is that the top group of college rebounders WILL be good pro rebounders-likewise college bigs with rather poor RBD stats seldom become rebounders later. Likewise,a good shotblocker will show blocks in college. Assists can be harder to judge. Somebody has to finish the play. Further,while NBA folk speak of the pure point G...he better also score or he's a sub. Scoring can be a bit hard to figure. Some are volume shooters,some fatten up their stats vs the cupcakes. Some are only inside or outside. Some score 12-16 pt incollege-and in the Pro's score 7-8...if they get the action. Guys up near the top,playing in a major conference,are high %. Guys who,like Larry Bird,way back, rank real high in several categories,like scoring ,FG %,rebounds-as Bird did,have even better odds. Some guys can score-yet are sub par in all other areas,and so have major limits.

    IF I was sitting around drinking brews with a few pro scouts,Magic Johnson,Mully,Red Aurbach and John Wooden and they all said,Rerem,this Fran Vasquez is the real deal,and this Turkish kid shoots like Peja-hell yes,I belive. Internet sites with mocks based on each other's rumors,or who knows,sites that had Darko,Pavel,Shika and a few guys nobody remembers ranked high-that's not the same. I never SEE a game with any of the top Euros. The available Stats,even graded on a generous curve,give more negative than positive input. The Euroleague may be pro,but like the CBA,most have not been asked to step up to the NBA. We draft THEIR young pros,not the reverse. I am willing to say Splitter MIGHT be a guy who can play NBA. Starter? Center? He has far to go for those to look like serious questions.

    i have seen high school,JC guys do a fundamentally sound,full effort job rebounding,playing D. I see a supposed high pick college FR-Soph,failing to do either,and I almost don't care why,I can expect he's lazy,apathetic or too dumb. We all know what "box out" means? Right? If you see Marvin Williams,draw him a pictue of it. Villanueva CAN play great D,but needs to do it more often. McCants needs to play SOME d. Taft needs to watch vids of May in the NCAA's until he plays just like that. Some others need mostly to look at career options,Real Estate,Fast Food,plumbing....

    Watching Diogu,I was not seeing flaws,weak areas,the guy had a big,well stocked toolbox,was a different player than a year earlier. I was thinking,a bigger Shawn Marion,a taller Charles Barkley. I saw enough ball to not confuse him with Malik Rose,or Corliss Williamson. Who fits into what role,and when gets decided as the W's play,I just want to add in the best impact talent to the mix,especially a guy able to improve the D at either F spot-while being a high % scorer.

    Had Sheldon Williams stayed in,I'd have liked him a lot. Guaranteed D,rebounds if anyone can.

    The W's will scout people like Spltter,Blatche,Petro who we are unable,realistically,to more than guess can do something. If they see enough,maybe they take player X,and maybe they are right. The W's did okay with Pietrus,Biedrens,and may pull off another. The Info WE have access to is so incomplete-if at all accurate as to be worth nothing. We may as well be talking about taking Chewbacca in the draft as a Wookie center
     
  13. REREM

    REREM JBB JustBBall Member

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    Back in olden times,a guy named Oscar graduated with a 3 yr scoring average of 33 pt (no freshman eligible then) He average over 10 boards. He could shut you down on D. He was a 6-5 FORWARD. I had an arguement with a buddy. He felt Oscar was not big enough for F,and he was not a guard. Some 6-9 long forgot name was mentioned-but he leaned to a TRUE G,and the next best player that draft,W Virginia's Jerry West. I had watched Oscar Robertson play enough I insisted he could play Forward Guard or shortstop. Oscar Robertson had been starting ss on Cincy's college team,and some said he could have been a star in any sport...but he became a guard,a little better than West,not a tweener,or too small-just fine.
     
  14. REREM

    REREM JBB JustBBall Member

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    If any achievement by a player in college ball is meaningless-and Euros of any worth are kept under wraps so they have no credentials....then this whole discussion is pointless. Take the guy with the fast 40yd time and the vertical leap/wingspan and make it simple.
     
  15. Custodianrules2

    Custodianrules2 Cohan + Rowell = Suck

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    Good stuff, REREM

    You make a convincing argument as well [​IMG]

    You're right, it's tough to get all the inside stuff that professional scouts see because it's their job to watch and follow these guys we're looking at. Even during college ball, it's tough to really figure out who's going to make it in the NBA because some players mentally can't do it.
     
  16. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting REREM:</div><div class="quote_post">If any achievement by a player in college ball is meaningless-and Euros of any worth are kept under wraps so they have no credentials....then this whole discussion is pointless. Take the guy with the fast 40yd time and the vertical leap/wingspan and make it simple.</div>

    That's basically my point. Comparing their college/euro stats to judge their success in NBA is basically meaningless, since there is hardly any correlation between them or their chance of being successful in NBA. Of course, a guy who averaged 5 reb per game won't suddenly grab 10 rebounds per game in NBA, and if you were a great rebounder in college, you will most likely be a decent rebounder in NBA at worst. However, just because you are a great rebounder in college, that doesn't guareentee that you will be a great rebounder in NBA as well. Foyle averaged more than 13 rebounds in his college, but we don't mistake him as a good rebounder. Fuller averaged 1.8 blk, but that doesnt' stop him from averaging 0.27 blk per game in his short NBA career. So, just because Diogu averaged 9.8, that doesn't mean he will be an excellent rebounder as well. Also, fundamentals can be taught, while physical ability can't be taught. For example, when Dunleavy was drafted, many people raved about his flawless fundamentals, and how his fundamentals will make him a great player, despite his lack of athlatism. However, his lack of athlatism is eventually what prevents him from being an excellent player from a being a roll player. In contrast, in same year, Suns drafted Stoudmire, who had holes in everywhere, suspected attitudes, and raw talents beyond your imagination. And, we know how he turns out.

    Diogu can very well turn out to be an excellent player like you seem to imagine him to be. However, at this point, most of us simply didn't see enough evidence whether he can be successful or not. And, based on scouting reports and history of how most of not so athlatic and undersized PF turned out to be, there is a good reason why we don't expect a star from Diogu. Of course, our opinion on him can very well be changed once we start to hear good news in camp or work out, and if he makes enough noise, you will see mass immigration to Diogu bandwagon. But until that, all we have with us is a college stats, which doesn't mean much when it comes to the success in NBA, and scouting repots from various websites. Therefore, I won't jump into Diogu bandwagon yet, especially when he hasn't declare himself to begin with.

    I also recognize that with every Stoudmire, there are number of Diop, Miles, Swift, and plenty of busts. However, chance of drafting a star sorely based on pure talent is still overwhelmingly larger than drafting a star, who doesn't necessery have superb athlatism to compete in NBA, especially when it comes to big man. And, with 9th pick and our current rotation, we can afford completely wasting this pick, so that's why I want us to draft high risk/reward player, instead of a player, who's most likely be a solid role player.

    Of course I won't just draft a player with the fast 40yd time and the vertical leap/wingspan. However, if I only have two choices to draft a superstar, one being I can only select a player based on his body and athlathism, and another being I can select a player with only based on thier college/euro league stats, there is no question that I will draft based on their physical ability...
     
  17. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting J-Rich23:</div><div class="quote_post">Excellent analysis there Kwan. Foyle's stats were amazing in college. 6.4 blocks and 24 points a game. What year was Foyle when he did that? Also, would you take Bogut with the first pick or Paul? Why?</div>

    His last year. In terms of stats, he was a monster, and at that time, I wondered why many scouts projected him as a defensive pf/c without any offense skill.

    Well, if I have a choice, I would draft Bogut for Warriors. Bogut only needs to beat Foyle or Biedrins to start, while Paul has to beat out Davis to start. And, it's not like we can plug either of them SG. So, best long term scenario is trading either of them...
     
  18. Run BJM

    Run BJM Heavy lies the crown. Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I'll try to steer the topic back on track here.

    It was reported a few weeks ago that Chris Anderson is opting out of his contract to test the free agent waters. He'd be a great pick-up for us IMO, he hustles, provides a spark off the bench, blocks shots, but no offense other than dunks. His stats are very similar to Dalembert but he does it off the bench. I can imagine he and Foyle both averaging 1.5-2 blocks a game. It makes me giddy. He would probably cost about 2-3 mil a year which isn't bad. I could see him fitting in well in Golden State, he would get plenty of dunks off of Baron assists and he could come in for Murphy and provide solid defense.
     
  19. J_Ray

    J_Ray JBB JustBBall Member

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    Dalembert is good but he can't make free throws. He struggles from the line and people can just hack a Shaq him. I think Frye is your guys guy. He make 85% of his free throws and has an Mid-range game.
     
  20. Kwan1031

    Kwan1031 JBB JustBBall Member

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    <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Run BJM:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll try to steer the topic back on track here.

    It was reported a few weeks ago that Chris Anderson is opting out of his contract to test the free agent waters. He'd be a great pick-up for us IMO, he hustles, provides a spark off the bench, blocks shots, but no offense other than dunks. His stats are very similar to Dalembert but he does it off the bench. I can imagine he and Foyle both averaging 1.5-2 blocks a game. It makes me giddy. He would probably cost about 2-3 mil a year which isn't bad. I could see him fitting in well in Golden State, he would get plenty of dunks off of Baron assists and he could come in for Murphy and provide solid defense.</div>

    It would be nice to add another big man who can play. But, we have Biedrins who does simliar job, and we need to save every penny we can possible. If we can get him cheap, like a mil per year, I would do it though...
     

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