<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Aug 4 2008, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Aug 4 2008, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>http://www.82games.com/0708/07DEN7A.HTM See the bottom of the page, "hands rating"</div> Not all bad decisions end up in turnovers. Stats never tell the entire story and are often misinterpreted. Which is what is happening here. I'll try to find the quote later, but during the season, George Karl was asked about playing JR Smith some minutes at PG and he essentially replied why would I play the worst decision maker on the team at PG. </div> OK, so take a guess (that's the best you can do) as to how many bad decisions didn't turn into turnovers... </div> At least 5 defensive lapses per game plus at least 4 missed cutters when he had the ball per game plus at least 2 missed gambles for steals plus .... <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Why would Karl play a really tall guy who's pure SG at PG?</div> Because AI isn't a PG and JR needed to get playing time. </div> How did Denver ever win games playing him so much! You'd think the +/- rating would support your guess, but it doesn't. He's a +92 for the season. For all Bogut's IQ, he's a -133 for the season.
My brain hurts. Putting up points isn't ALL about IQ - it can also be about size, athleticism, luck (right place, right time to catch the ball), bad defense, no defense, quickness, or even...what am I thinking of, muscle memory(?) for shooting skills. Scoring can be done with 0 basketball IQ. It's a matter of actually watching games and creating observations to find out how a player scores - whether it is because of a reason listed above, or because they really do have good IQ, and know how to score in the best ways. Same with any other stats - they can be obtained a number of different ways, it's just a matter of watching games to find out how they are obtained to figure out a player's IQ on the court. Oh, and let me add that when assessing a player's IQ, his team's winning percentage has little to do with it. You must take into consideration coaches, teammates, etc. It's not as simple as "this player's team is the best in the league, therefore he must be a genius!" Because I'm pretty sure Perkins isn't that intelligent.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about a poll of 1M people? Next best thing would be a poll of the coaches. Next best would be a poll of all of S2. Next best thing would be a poll of those in the GM draft. The thing about polls is that the larger the sample, the more likely you are to consider all variables and the JR Smith "haters" would even out with the fans at the edges of the bell curve.</div> Thanks Denny. I don't see how this supports anything, but it's a great warm up for kids who will be taking Statistics in high school next year. You're having convos with a couple of people at a time and that can be kind of a pain. Our conversation was how I thought your "hands rating" was hardly objective when describing JR Smith (who I still have an overall favorable opinion of)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 5 2008, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about a poll of 1M people? Next best thing would be a poll of the coaches. Next best would be a poll of all of S2. Next best thing would be a poll of those in the GM draft. The thing about polls is that the larger the sample, the more likely you are to consider all variables and the JR Smith "haters" would even out with the fans at the edges of the bell curve.</div> Thanks Denny. I don't see how this supports anything, but it's a great warm up for kids who will be taking Statistics in high school next year. You're having convos with a couple of people at a time and that can be kind of a pain. Our conversation was how I thought your "hands rating" was hardly objective when describing JR Smith (who I still have an overall favorable opinion of) </div> He's having convos with multiple people, but not addressing anything that they say directly.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:50 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How about a poll of 1M people? Next best thing would be a poll of the coaches. Next best would be a poll of all of S2. Next best thing would be a poll of those in the GM draft. The thing about polls is that the larger the sample, the more likely you are to consider all variables and the JR Smith "haters" would even out with the fans at the edges of the bell curve.</div> Thanks Denny. I don't see how this supports anything, but it's a great warm up for kids who will be taking Statistics in high school next year. You're having convos with a couple of people at a time and that can be kind of a pain. Our conversation was how I thought your "hands rating" was hardly objective when describing JR Smith (who I still have an overall favorable opinion of) </div> You can poll people about Smith's IQ, about his decision making, or whatever. Consider Iverson's hands rating is 24, and Smith's is 10. What does that tell you? Or that Rip's is 20. Or that Ray Allen's is 14.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For all Bogut's IQ, he's a -133 for the season.</div> Now you've switched from "hands rating" (they put the quotes on that themselves!) to +/- to describe IQ. How can you say it's objective when you yourself have used two separate measures to describe this concept?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (L @ Aug 4 2008, 09:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>denny, seriously, havent you thought as to why bball IQ is not evaluated by numbers?</div> Because it's just something you can make up and claim to win an argument? (That seems to be pretty spot on ) And not meant to be offensive in any way.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For all Bogut's IQ, he's a -133 for the season.</div> Now you've switched from "hands rating" (they put the quotes on that themselves!) to +/- to describe IQ. How can you say it's objective when you yourself have used two separate measures to describe this concept? </div> No I'm using hands rating to talk about decision making.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can poll people about Smith's IQ, about his decision making, or whatever. Consider Iverson's hands rating is 24, and Smith's is 10. What does that tell you? Or that Rip's is 20. Or that Ray Allen's is 14.</div> That tells me absolutely nothing. Heck even you switched to +/- I'm still asking you to support your opinion as to why "hands" is a valid means to describe intelligence.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 09:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For all Bogut's IQ, he's a -133 for the season.</div> Now you've switched from "hands rating" (they put the quotes on that themselves!) to +/- to describe IQ. How can you say it's objective when you yourself have used two separate measures to describe this concept? </div> No I'm using hands rating to talk about decision making. </div> And you think that's completely separate from intelligence? Decision making and "bballIQ" seem like they go hand-in-hand to me; they're both the intangible, mental aspects of someone's game.
Assists are heavily factored in the "hands rating" statistic (thanks to KC for pointing that out). Ray Allen's is that low because he is a shooter, not a passer. It's not the best indicator of "decision making."
What I find really funny is that I'm actually a big JR Smith fan. I just happen to recognize his weaknesses. Heck in my sim league, I recently signed him to a huge 5 year contract.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can poll people about Smith's IQ, about his decision making, or whatever. Consider Iverson's hands rating is 24, and Smith's is 10. What does that tell you? Or that Rip's is 20. Or that Ray Allen's is 14.</div> That tells me absolutely nothing. Heck even you switched to +/- I'm still asking you to support your opinion as to why "hands" is a valid means to describe intelligence. </div> I didn't bring up hands as a valid means to describe intelligence. I was told in no uncertain terms that he has little basketball IQ because of his proneness to turnovers and then asked by KC if there's a statistic that measures that. Quit ascribing to me things that simply aren't true
People who say players like Walker, Outlaw and Jefferson have high bball iq's, should have their rights to vote removed
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JCB @ Aug 4 2008, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Assists are heavily factored in the "hands rating" statistic (thanks to KC for pointing that out). Ray Allen's is that low because he is a shooter, not a passer. It's not the best indicator of "decision making."</div> Smith's a shooter too. He scores 2 points every 3 minutes, which is a phenomenal scoring rate. He must be making those decisions well. I pointed out that in 38 MPG, he would likely average close to 4 APG, which is also phenomenal for a SG; does that speak to his ability to find open men for a scoring chance? If so, what does that say about his decision making? Maybe he gambles for steals to much or something, but he's successful at getting them at a rate as high as the league leaders in that category. What does that say about his decision making? He dominates opposing SGs he plays against with a PER difference of over 5.5. PER measures a number of basketball related skills, not just scoring or passing or rebounding. His PER is over 20, which is +5 over what would be league average. His +/- indicates his team does better with him on the court than off. Is this an indication of poor decision making? +/- doesn't measure his scoring or passing or rebounding, it measures what the whole team does, and his decision making would be a pretty good part of it, no? Any argument that is anecdotal is just that.
Right and then I came in because you said its objective and I disagreed. Then you talked about the virtues of a large sample size without defending your use of the "hands rating."
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cpawfan @ Aug 5 2008, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What I find really funny is that I'm actually a big JR Smith fan. I just happen to recognize his weaknesses. Heck in my sim league, I recently signed him to a huge 5 year contract.</div> horrible move
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 01:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 4 2008, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Denny Crane @ Aug 5 2008, 12:58 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can poll people about Smith's IQ, about his decision making, or whatever. Consider Iverson's hands rating is 24, and Smith's is 10. What does that tell you? Or that Rip's is 20. Or that Ray Allen's is 14.</div> That tells me absolutely nothing. Heck even you switched to +/- I'm still asking you to support your opinion as to why "hands" is a valid means to describe intelligence. </div> I was told in no uncertain terms that he has little basketball IQ because of his proneness to turnovers. </div> Where?
