what TBpup said Charlotte had rights to the pick if it was outside of the lottery. Pels still owned the rights for 1-14; so they could trade those
I think we just overvalued a lot of our assets and underestimated how bad their contracts were... Nobody was going to get better value for those players in the same situation.
Maybe.... or maybe not. I guess we'll never know since Cronin jumped at agreeing to a shitty offer a week before the deadline.
Not sure why... he has been balling out for New Orleans. 26.6 ppg 6.8 assists 5.5 rebounds 52.7% from the field 40% from three 24.8 PER Those are superstar numbers, and pretty much exactly what I thought he'd put up if he was made the lead guard of a team. We got hosed.
It's cool man there have been multiple reports siting sources from front office (obviously they're anonymous so you take it for what it's worth) saying that we never gave them a chance and that they would have paid more for Norm. Just the fact that there were teams who wanted to give us more value for Norm but didn't get a chance to go there tells you all you need to know. Norm's contract is not shitty. He's a starting level player in the league locked into a deal that never goes above 20M through his entire prime. I get it that sometimes teams like deals that have more flexibility but he signed a team friendly deal. That Norm/RoCo debacle set the trade market for our team, that we were selling low and we did it again closer to the deadline with CJ and Larry. Look at what CJ has been able to do when playing with Ingram and tell me that the Pelicans didn't get over on us. Some people on here for whatever reason (I seriously can't understand it) won't admit that we took way less value back in both of those trades, more so the Clippers deal but still both. I don't know why they would stick up for the deals, I really have no idea. We can get better next season than we were to start this season but that doesn't mean that it was OK to give up so much more value than we got in return.
Agree Joe could have done better especially with the clipper deal. The CJ deal could have been better also, but Hart has surprised me. If Joe doesn't use these picks to trade for front star quality players, then it wouldn't surprise me that Dame either ask's for a change or we trade him for another star front court player and some? Joe seems like a nice dude and smart but you need good negotiator. I wonder if Dame was aware of the players involved in the recent trades, seems I remember Joe mentioning he's kept Chauncey and Dame informed?
Yeah, I don't know if Dame was consulted like so many in here seem to think he is during the actual trade process but for sure the three guys (Joe, Chauncey and Dame) had some well publicized meetings to brain storm and inform each other of the direction they think the team should be headed in and all three came out of those meetings saying that they were on the same page. I think if a pick can't yield a day one difference maker then it has to be traded for proven commodities or the team has to pivot and start talking to Dame about new teams that would be acceptable to him that have assets that make our team much better... not some OKC or Houston bullshit but pieces that are on the same timeline as Ant, Nas, our other young guys and the picks that we do end up taking. I just mean that if we move on from Dame which is the last thing that I want right now, we need to get young players that have already shown that they can have the potential to be stars or one young player with superstar potential... not draft pick stock piles that are basically trading an all time great for some magic beans.
cuz they have can't see past their hatred for Olshey to evaluate these deals rationally. they think cronin is simply undoing Olshey's mistakes so it's OK to take back shit return in trades, while forgetting that maximizing asset play around the margins sometimes can make the biggest difference.
Smart people may know what to say or what needs to be done, but Wise people know if they should say it or not , or do something or not.
If we end up getting the NO pick and it ends up being a decent pick, the trade won't be horrible.... but gosh I really thought we could do better for CJ. He's really showing how good he can be as the point guard and it's super annoying.
IF we get that pick then that one isn't to terribly bad but when trading a guy as special as CJ along with a guy that has the ability to contribute that Larry does, you have to get solid returns not gambles. So the fact that this pick is such a huge gamble is completely unacceptable to me... the fact is the conditions and contingencies on that pick should have been better... I mean if they get to keep that top four protection then we get the best pick out of their pick, the Lakers pick or the Bucks who they get in a swap situation in 2024... without condition. The fact that they have so many picks between now and the pick we took as the contingency just shows me how played Cronin was getting... then the fact that if that Bucks pick somehow ends up top 4 we're just fucked... fucking ridiculous. All of that said, these are small things compared to getting Keon, Justise a 2025 second rounder and cap relief for two quality starting or sixth man type players in Norm and RoCo... that's just so incredibly fucking bad. Look at what RoCo has been giving them as opposed to what they were getting out of Winslow. I also don't want to hear about how Justise is a better fit here and RoCo is there because what Justise has given us has been numbers getting starters minutes in losses while RoCo has been a huge contributor keeping them winning as many as they've been losing. I really wish Norm hadn't hurt himself so people in here could see just how bad of a trade this was but you'll see it when he heals up and is playing a ton of minutes with PG13 and Kawhi next season.
what he's showing is about 3 things we already knew: 1) he can put up great numbers when he's on a hot streak. But based on his career, there's a strong chance this kind of shooting he's showing is unsustainable 2) He can also put up great numbers when he's the #1 option, which he has been in New Orleans 3) CJ, as the #1 option does not make for a good team. The Pels are 5-8 with CJ now I know some will say "but the Pels have been injured (Ingram & Zion) so record is deceptive". But the thing is if Ingram and Zion are healthy, CJ will not be the #1 option posting the highest FGA rate and usage rate of his career all that's not to say the Blazers did great on the Pels trade. I think they could have got back better draft asset(s) for starters. But that might be a quibble because if the Blazers get Josh Hart, a 2022 lottery pick,and a 21M TPE for CJ they've done pretty well
I would change your second point to, he can put up great numbers when he's running the offense which he will be doing when Ingram and if Zion gets healthy. That record is incredibly deceptive because at first they weren't having CJ run the offense which was a mistake, then they tore it up when he was running the offense with Ingram there with him, then Ingram went down and CJ had to take some games off for COVID. CJ had more value than we got for him and let's not forget that they got Larry too who could be back by the end of this season but they will definitely have next season at a great price. If the pick conveys then this was just a bad deal and if it turns into that 2025 Bucks pick, the deal was an unmitigated disaster.
don't agree. I don't gauge CJ as high as you do. And I don't gauge Nance that high either. mainly because he spends way too much time in street clothes you seem to be basing this evaluation on an assumption that other teams were lined up to make better offers for C?
I've seen no evidence that there were better offers out there. It's not a refusal to admit, it's lack of evidence. Why would I believe something without evidence? I've seen no other trades for similar players that yielded more, or much demand for players or contracts like that. It also sounds like we were trying to put those guys in situations they wanted to be in. So if we got fewer 2nd round picks to make that happen for them I'm good with it. What else were you thinking we could have gotten, and why would it have been better?
If his plan was to free up money in order to pay the new allstar he's going to trade for, with picks and some, and pay Simons, extend Dame maybe pay Nurk, young players or vets with reasonable contacts like Harts works.
You Cronin apologists know better than all of the former GMs out there, better than all of the national media and former players. It's fantastic that we get such experts in here. Just go ahead and give me your example of another player "like CJ" and what he WAS traded for what makes you think the Pelicans trade was so great? While you're at it justify the robbery that was the Clippers trade. Seriously I don't know what compels people in here to defend bad trades after they happen. It really doesn't matter if we get better next season than we were to start this season because we gave up more value than we took back. I don't mind a small step back if it means large steps forward but this was a big step back and obviously getting robbed in the first trade bled over into the second one and quite frankly the third trade where we took a washed player who is an unrestricted free agent and can't play for the rest of his contract for a promising prospect. You guys just go ahead and keep thinking that Cronin did a great job. Whatever makes you happy I guess.
Most of this board had the exact same reaction to John Nash following Trader Bob. Oh joy! Every trade & pick sucks, but we're cleaning up BW's mistakes and creating a culture! I thought Soapy was clearly inept and wanted him gone many seasons ago. I've been slack jawed at the moves made thus far from Cronin, but... it seems pretty obvious those moves were dictated by those from above for cost cutting purposes. Yes of course the current mix wasn't working and some of the draft assets acquired aren't realized yet, but I'm holding off truly blaming Cronin's hoops judgement until this offseason as I feel they're angling for a sale. STOMP
* CJ was essentially traded for: ) Hart ) a 2022 lottery pick (likely) ) two 2nd round picks ) two TPE's, one of 21M and another of 3.3M ) and 40M in cap-savings this season plus 77M in cap savings the next 2 seasons (includes Nance) (I know the Blazers added Nance but that was simply Portland dumping sunk cost in an injury prone player while making room to re-sign Simons and Nurkic) ************************************************** * Porzingis was traded for: ) Dinwiddie (comparable to Hart) ) Davis Bertrans, who happens to have one of the worst mid-range contracts in the league (And Dallas had to add a 2nd round pick to the trade) *************************************************** * Caris LeVert was traded for: ) Ricky Rubio's expiring contract ) 2022 first round pick (currently 19th) ) two 2nd round picks **************************************************** I'm sure you could go back in time and point to examples that support your argument. I could go back and point to examples that refute it. I just looked at this season because every trade deadline has different dynamics I think Porzingis is close enough to CJ in value to use as a gauge, both in talent and in contract. And in this case, contracts are important because they help set value and both players have about the same bloated contract Portland definitely got a better return for CJ than Dallas did for Porzingis. They got 3 picks instead of giving one up, and one of those picks could be a top-10 pick. Hart and Dinwiddie are comparable players Dinwiddie is better at assists; Hart is a more efficient scorer, better rebounder, and better defender. He also complements Dame/Ant better than Dinwiddie would, IMO. And Hart costs 5M/year less
