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Natebishop3 said:
I never said it was because of Dame, but regardless we have been bad WITH Dame for nearly half a decade, so what difference does it make?
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Because adding another Star to Dame is something we haven't tried, at least not since Aldridge. Which is the last time we had a legitimate hope to contend.
 
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Natebishop3 said:
I never said it was because of Dame, but regardless we have been bad WITH Dame for nearly half a decade, so what difference does it make?
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you ask what difference it makes; I'm wondering what meaning it has?

* The Blazers were back to back 3 seeds and made it to the WCF, and that was in the last half decade. Bad seems a relative term unless every team that doesn't make it to the finals is "bad". Portland has been a pretender 3 or 4 times, not a contender, but again....Olshey

* in the 4 years SGA has been in OKC their record is 130-178 (.422), and it's only that good because OKC had Chris Paul the first year. Does that tell you anything about SGA or is it about the rosters?

* the first 5 years Milwaukee had Giannis their record was 175-235, and they had Khris Middleton too. They didn't get good until they added Jrue & Lopez. Does that mean Giannis is overrated?

* Dallas has had two first round exits and two lottery appearances with Doncic. They had one run to the conference finals where they won 1 game. Is this because of Doncic, or the rosters?

* Anthony Davis spent 7 years in New Orleans. Their record was 251-323. In those 7 years, they had 5 lottery appearances, one 1st round exit, and 1 trip to the conference semi-finals where they won exactly 1 game. 7 years of being truly 'bad'. Is AD tremendously overrated or was he poorly served by Pels management? He sure didn't have trouble winning (when healthy) playing with Lebron

Portland made it to the WCF where it was never more apparent that not only did the Blazers need more talent, they needed top-end talent. So what did Olshey do in the off-season? He replaced Aminu-Harkless-Kanter-Curry-Turner-Layman-Meyers with, and this is funny-not-funny-actually-pathetic, Whiteside-Melo-Bazemore-Hezonja-Tolliver. geeeeeezuzzzz

now I know you were trying to say what difference it would make when Portland was bad after trading Dame since they been mired in mediocrity while having him. At least bad would be a different direction, especially if Portland made a point to be truly bad and loaded up for a few years on top lottery picks.
 
tykendo said:
Unless the cops are in the rear view mirror.
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But the cops aren’t going to be in the rear view mirror because they already cleared him.

The only way that changes is if he suddenly starts talking about the situation, and he has been advised not to do exactly that, and he seemingly is following his lawyers instructions to a “T”.

Further, CHA hired private investigators and seemingly the result was, “good kid, good family, big mistake”.

Unless we hear something damning before the draft, you take him all day every day.

The “biggest” draft expert says he is CLEARLY the second most talented player in the draft. (Givony)
 
Predator said:
But the cops aren’t going to be in the rear view mirror because they already cleared him.

The only way that changes is if he suddenly starts talking about the situation, and he has been advised not to do exactly that, and he seemingly is following his lawyers instructions to a “T”.

Further, CHA hired private investigators and seemingly the result was, “good kid, good family, big mistake”.

Unless we hear something damning before the draft, you take him all day every day.

The “biggest” draft expert says he is CLEARLY the second most talented player in the draft. (Givony)[/QUOTE I don't want to hear 2nd best player in draft. I want to hear, he's Kevin Freaking Durant. ready to compete, and dominate.
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wizenheimer said:
you ask what difference it makes; I'm wondering what meaning it has?

* The Blazers were back to back 3 seeds and made it to the WCF, and that was in the last half decade. Bad seems a relative term unless every team that doesn't make it to the finals is "bad". Portland has been a pretender 3 or 4 times, not a contender, but again....Olshey

* in the 4 years SGA has been in OKC their record is 130-178 (.422), and it's only that good because OKC had Chris Paul the first year. Does that tell you anything about SGA or is it about the rosters?

* the first 5 years Milwaukee had Giannis their record was 175-235, and they had Khris Middleton too. They didn't get good until they added Jrue & Lopez. Does that mean Giannis is overrated?

* Dallas has had two first round exits and two lottery appearances with Doncic. They had one run to the conference finals where they won 1 game. Is this because of Doncic, or the rosters?

* Anthony Davis spent 7 years in New Orleans. Their record was 251-323. In those 7 years, they had 5 lottery appearances, one 1st round exit, and 1 trip to the conference semi-finals where they won exactly 1 game. 7 years of being truly 'bad'. Is AD tremendously overrated or was he poorly served by Pels management? He sure didn't have trouble winning (when healthy) playing with Lebron

Portland made it to the WCF where it was never more apparent that not only did the Blazers need more talent, they needed top-end talent. So what did Olshey do in the off-season? He replaced Aminu-Harkless-Kanter-Curry-Turner-Layman-Meyers with, and this is funny-not-funny-actually-pathetic, Whiteside-Melo-Bazemore-Hezonja-Tolliver. geeeeeezuzzzz

now I know you were trying to say what difference it would make when Portland was bad after trading Dame since they been mired in mediocrity while having him. At least bad would be a different direction, especially if Portland made a point to be truly bad and loaded up for a few years on top lottery picks.
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I think a big part of this conversation is how one feels about Simons / Sharpe / Miller (or whoever we get at 3). One could argue we are starting our “tank” with some pieces already in place.

Not that I exactly subscribe to that belief, but there are people who say Simons in all-star caliber when Dame doesn’t play, and others are convinced Sharpe is going to be a frequent stay on all-NBA lists. I have serious questions about both those, but if someone believes that then they probably think our tank won’t last very long, particularly if we hit on “#3”.
 
I could see where, Miller is fantastic in his workouts , and everyone is in. Then they could turn Ant / #23 potentially into DeMar DeRosan & pick reconciliation . Nurk, Grant, Miller , DeRozen, and Dame. Sharpe is 6th man.
 
tykendo said:
I could see where, Miller is fantastic in his workouts , and everyone is in. Then they could turn Ant / #23 potentially into DeMar DeRosan & pick reconciliation . Nurk, Grant, Miller , DeRozen, and Dame. Sharpe is 6th man.
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something like that is probably the best of both worlds. It gets some veteran help for Dame while not mortgaging any of the future (no, I don't consider Ant the future)
 
wizenheimer said:
you ask what difference it makes; I'm wondering what meaning it has?

* The Blazers were back to back 3 seeds and made it to the WCF, and that was in the last half decade. Bad seems a relative term unless every team that doesn't make it to the finals is "bad". Portland has been a pretender 3 or 4 times, not a contender, but again....Olshey

* in the 4 years SGA has been in OKC their record is 130-178 (.422), and it's only that good because OKC had Chris Paul the first year. Does that tell you anything about SGA or is it about the rosters?

* the first 5 years Milwaukee had Giannis their record was 175-235, and they had Khris Middleton too. They didn't get good until they added Jrue & Lopez. Does that mean Giannis is overrated?

* Dallas has had two first round exits and two lottery appearances with Doncic. They had one run to the conference finals where they won 1 game. Is this because of Doncic, or the rosters?

* Anthony Davis spent 7 years in New Orleans. Their record was 251-323. In those 7 years, they had 5 lottery appearances, one 1st round exit, and 1 trip to the conference semi-finals where they won exactly 1 game. 7 years of being truly 'bad'. Is AD tremendously overrated or was he poorly served by Pels management? He sure didn't have trouble winning (when healthy) playing with Lebron

Portland made it to the WCF where it was never more apparent that not only did the Blazers need more talent, they needed top-end talent. So what did Olshey do in the off-season? He replaced Aminu-Harkless-Kanter-Curry-Turner-Layman-Meyers with, and this is funny-not-funny-actually-pathetic, Whiteside-Melo-Bazemore-Hezonja-Tolliver. geeeeeezuzzzz

now I know you were trying to say what difference it would make when Portland was bad after trading Dame since they been mired in mediocrity while having him. At least bad would be a different direction, especially if Portland made a point to be truly bad and loaded up for a few years on top lottery picks.
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Bad, to me, is getting embarrassed in the first round over and over. This is the last 5 years (half decade)

upload_2023-5-29_10-58-47.png

Obviously COVID made things interesting, but we actually would not have made the playoffs if not for COVID. The bubble saved our season. But as you can see, one good season where we went to the WCF, two crap seasons where we got decimated in the playoffs, and 2 seasons where we tanked. We haven't been good in a while now.
 

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Natebishop3 said:
Bad, to me, is getting embarrassed in the first round over and over. This is the last 5 years (half decade)

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Obviously COVID made things interesting, but we actually would not have made the playoffs if not for COVID. The bubble saved our season. But as you can see, one good season where we went to the WCF, two crap seasons where we got decimated in the playoffs, and 2 seasons where we tanked. We haven't been good in a while now.
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I'm well aware of what Portland has done. Just like I'm well aware of the reasons
 
wizenheimer said:
I'm well aware of what Portland has done. Just like I'm well aware of the reasons
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You said we were 3 seed twice in the last five years and I don't think that's right. Only one time.

wizenheimer said:
* in the 4 years SGA has been in OKC their record is 130-178 (.422), and it's only that good because OKC had Chris Paul the first year. Does that tell you anything about SGA or is it about the rosters?

* the first 5 years Milwaukee had Giannis their record was 175-235, and they had Khris Middleton too. They didn't get good until they added Jrue & Lopez. Does that mean Giannis is overrated?

* Dallas has had two first round exits and two lottery appearances with Doncic. They had one run to the conference finals where they won 1 game. Is this because of Doncic, or the rosters?

* Anthony Davis spent 7 years in New Orleans. Their record was 251-323. In those 7 years, they had 5 lottery appearances, one 1st round exit, and 1 trip to the conference semi-finals where they won exactly 1 game. 7 years of being truly 'bad'. Is AD tremendously overrated or was he poorly served by Pels management? He sure didn't have trouble winning (when healthy) playing with Lebron

Portland made it to the WCF where it was never more apparent that not only did the Blazers need more talent, they needed top-end talent. So what did Olshey do in the off-season? He replaced Aminu-Harkless-Kanter-Curry-Turner-Layman-Meyers with, and this is funny-not-funny-actually-pathetic, Whiteside-Melo-Bazemore-Hezonja-Tolliver. geeeeeezuzzzz

now I know you were trying to say what difference it would make when Portland was bad after trading Dame since they been mired in mediocrity while having him. At least bad would be a different direction, especially if Portland made a point to be truly bad and loaded up for a few years on top lottery picks.
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SGA - I have no idea if he's good enough to elevate that roster. I'm not really sold on ANY player that doesn't shoot threes in this modern NBA. I think that's what scares me about Scoot.

Giannis - he was 26 when they won a ring. Almost 7 years younger than Dame. My point is that we haven't been that good the last five years, and players don't typically get better as they age into their mid-30s.

Luka - I don't like Luka. He's not going to be a good example to use with me. I think he's arrogant and a bad teammate. He's the anti-Dame. With that said, he's only 24 years old and they have been to a WCF. Still lots and lots of time left....... unlike Dame.

Davis - the guy can't stay healthy. He can't do it. He's extremely good when he's on the court but he can't stay healthy. The Lakers were able to ride his one healthy season to a ring (although I think it was probably rigged because that was the year Kobe died.)

All that to say that your last comment is pretty much correct. That's how I feel.

Yes, our team failed Dame. Yes, our GM was a moron. But I also think Dame is partially responsible for keeping Stotts and CJ and Neil around for so long. But it's not a coincidence that we haven't been very good. Dame has been getting hurt. He used to be an iron man but he's in his 30s and he can't do it anymore. He has been hurt pretty much every season for the past four years. But putting together a winning team seems like such an insurmountable task at this point for a myriad of reasons.

  • Dame's age
  • Our shitty coach
  • Injuries
  • Lack of a legit second star
  • A quality bench
It's interesting that you mentioned all those guys though, because of those four players, only Giannis really had a second star on his team. It's a lot easier to fill in a team around two stars. Luka hasn't really had a second star until they got Kyrie, and that was just such a horrible pairing. The Mavs are in the same boat that we're in. They need a second star with Luka or he's going to leave. Davis didn't really have a second star until he got LeBron. He had Boogie for part of a season before one or both of them got hurt (I can't remember which). SGA doesn't have a second star. Maybe Chet will be that guy. Hard to say. But all the teams who actually competed for a championship this year had multiple stars.

LeBron/Davis
Tatum/Brown
Butler/Bam
Jokic/Murray
Durant/Booker
Embiid/Harden

Who are the teams who struggled?
Grizzlies - Morant/???
Kings - is Sabonis or Fox really stars?
Bucks - Giannis was hurt
Cavs - Mitchell/??
Knicks - who is even really a star on that team?
Nets - Bridges/??
Hawks - Trae/??

The Warriors are the only weird outlier. They have Steph and a bunch of other talented guys, but not really a true second star. Wiggins is inconsistent, Klay is not what he used to be, Draymond was never a star in my book. They're just a really well constructed team.

So to be truly considered a threat next season, we would need at the minimum these things:
  • A true second star player
  • A healthy season
  • A better bench.
I'm not really convinced that Chauncey can coach a playoff team, but I'm not seeing him getting fired yet.
 
tykendo said:
I find it wild how one & doner Brandon Miller is the next coming, but All NBA Pascal Siakam is chopped liver. Give me the guy i know can play and be dominant at the NBA level. And not saying Miller won't be , potentially , a great player. But i want proven now to join our generational talent . There will be more potential great one & doners in the future.
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Siakam is fine as a role player contributing to the finals, but he ain't leading a team anywhere, just look at where the Raptors have gone the last few years.

They won the title because Kawhi is a dominant two way player way more impactful than Dame or Siakam, plus contributions all over that roster - FVV, Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, Danny Green, etc.

Blazers don't have a best player at that level nor the depth. If they trade the #3 pick, Ant, etc for Siakam they lose assets to make other additions. Dame Grant Siakam will all be on huge deals so there is no luxury tax space to add other contributors much less another star either.

Yes Siakam might help the Blazers win some more games, but he's not making them a contender, nor getting them a move away. It's just not a smart addition with where this roster is currently at. It's a very Neil Olshey style move of mediocrity.
 
tykendo said:
And the rebuild could potentially take a decade or more. See OKC. 7 years and counting. Getting better, but no guaranty's.
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You keep saying this but OKC made the playoffs in 2020 that's not 7 years ago. OKC has the same 3 playoff wins in that time as the Blazers. They since made the lottery twice and playin once. Blazers made the lottery twice.
 
tykendo said:
I could see where, Miller is fantastic in his workouts , and everyone is in. Then they could turn Ant / #23 potentially into DeMar DeRosan & pick reconciliation . Nurk, Grant, Miller , DeRozen, and Dame. Sharpe is 6th man.
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I wouldn't bet on it. He's been sick and hasn't played basketball for a bit and he's out of shape a little. His lack of athleticism scares me but it sounds like he's already pretty good defensively.

I think the Blazers are uncertain about this guy's prospects more than Sharpe. Not to mention his legal troubles.

If we take him, I'm hoping for the best but I understand the reservations behind picking him.
 
WesleyMatthews said:
You keep saying this but OKC made the playoffs in 2020 that's not 7 years ago. OKC has the same 3 playoff wins in that time as the Blazers. They since made the lottery twice and playin once. Blazers made the lottery twice.
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Because they added Chris Paul for a cup of java.
 
WesleyMatthews said:
Siakam is fine as a role player contributing to the finals, but he ain't leading a team anywhere, just look at where the Raptors have gone the last few years.

They won the title because Kawhi is a dominant two way player way more impactful than Dame or Siakam, plus contributions all over that roster - FVV, Lowry, Gasol, Ibaka, Danny Green, etc.

Blazers don't have a best player at that level nor the depth. If they trade the #3 pick, Ant, etc for Siakam they lose assets to make other additions. Dame Grant Siakam will all be on huge deals so there is no luxury tax space to add other contributors much less another star either.

Yes Siakam might help the Blazers win some more games, but he's not making them a contender, nor getting them a move away. It's just not a smart addition with where this roster is currently at. It's a very Neil Olshey style move of mediocrity.
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I'm gonna disagree that Kawhi Leonard is way more impactful. On defense, YES! That Toronto team was real good all around. They had Siakam, Lowry at his best, Norman Powell. Marc Gasol wasn't totally done then. A shot making Danny Green. Kawhi was surrounded by players who were playing at a high level. Since then Kawhi has struggled to stay healthy, and not sure he cares that much. But you under estimate how great an offensive talent Dame is. And is getting better and more efficient. Kawhi's not as good an offensive player as Dame. Just isn't.
 
Betting sites now have Miller above Scoot. Back on 5/25 in the Scoot thread I posted how it was the opposite with Scoot about 40 points above Miller for pick #2.

betonline.ag
#2 pick - Miller at -175 (more likely) Scoot +110
#3 pick - Scoot +100 (more likely) Miller +135 Amen +350

Draftkings similarly has Miller a bit higher than Scoot but not as significant.
#2 Miller -130 Scoot -110
#3 Scoot +105 Miller +110 Amen +500
 
Interesting looking at the draftkings betting favorite for each pick slot with who is 2nd most odds of that slot (excluding prior pick favorites)

#1 Wemba -20,000 Scoot +4000
#2 Miller -130 Scoot -110
#3 Scoot +105 Amen +500
#4 Amen -155 Ausar +450
#5 Ausar +250 Whitmore +250 Walker +275 Hendricks +1600 Black +3000

Seems to be a clear top 3, heavy favorite of Amen at #4, then not much difference between picks #5-7, finally a big dropoff to pick #8.
 
tykendo said:
Because they added Chris Paul for a cup of java.
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Well sure, but they made the playoffs the year prior when Westbrook was there, and the year prior, and the year prior, and the year prior. Then the year before that Durant was injured for the year and they missed it. So no - OKC has not been tanking for 7 years as you've falsely claimed many times. The CP3 trade wasn't for Java, it was for Westbrook which they got picks on acquiring him and then picks trading him to the Suns.
 
tykendo said:
I'm gonna disagree that Kawhi Leonard is way more impactful. On defense, YES! That Toronto team was real good all around. They had Siakam, Lowry at his best, Norman Powell. Marc Gasol wasn't totally done then. A shot making Danny Green. Kawhi was surrounded by players who were playing at a high level. Since then Kawhi has struggled to stay healthy, and not sure he cares that much. But you under estimate how great an offensive talent Dame is. And is getting better and more efficient. Kawhi's not as good an offensive player as Dame. Just isn't.
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By impactful I meant to the game of basketball which includes both offense and defense. Lillard is the superior offensive player I'd agree, although Kawhi was still excellent as well, and harder to trap or scheme against in the playoffs. But Dame is a significant defensive liability while Kawhi is a great defender. Kawhi injuries since have nothing to do with his impact in Toronto - which my post was about in terms of showing how superior Kawhi impact was to Siakam's for that Raptors team to win the title.

Pairing Dame with Siakam here isn't going to give the Blazers the success that Toronto team had, the Blazers are missing nearly all of the strengths that lead the Raptors to that title.
 
WesleyMatthews said:
Betting sites now have Miller above Scoot. Back on 5/25 in the Scoot thread I posted how it was the opposite with Scoot about 40 points above Miller for pick #2.

betonline.ag
#2 pick - Miller at -175 (more likely) Scoot +110
#3 pick - Scoot +100 (more likely) Miller +135 Amen +350

Draftkings similarly has Miller a bit higher than Scoot but not as significant.
#2 Miller -130 Scoot -110
#3 Scoot +105 Miller +110 Amen +500
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@AmirIcon
 
For those that don't want Miller, why?

His legal troubles?
His game?
His ceiling?

I'm curious to hear from the people who are out on him.
 
Mods can you add a poll to this thread? I'd like to know how many people would take him if he drops to 3.
 
Natebishop3 said:
For those that don't want Miller, why?

His legal troubles?
His game?
His ceiling?

I'm curious to hear from the people who are out on him.
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Miller looks like he has a pretty high floor because of his shooting and at-least-decent defense.
I think the only reason for the Blazers not to draft him is they see a higher ceiling with another player.
 
blazerfan11 said:
Miller looks like he has a pretty high floor because of his shooting and at-least-decent defense.
I think the only reason for the Blazers not to draft him is they see a higher ceiling with another player.
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Agreed. His finishing around the rim is a concern... although it's a small concern.

I see Miller in the LMA light. Decent rebounder & defender. Very good spot up shooter. Fringe all-star type player, who people will over-rate because they score lots of points.
 
blazerfan11 said:
Miller looks like he has a pretty high floor because of his shooting and at-least-decent defense.
I think the only reason for the Blazers not to draft him is they see a higher ceiling with another player.
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The funny thing to me though, is that we have a player with an insane ceiling in Sharpe.

Miller seems like a plug-n-play guy who can step in immediately and contribute. His shooting is a skill that translates immediately. If he bulks up a bit, he would be a great pick-n-roll guy with Dame or Sharpe.

The concern for me is his legal situation.
 
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