loved watching Hakeem during his prime and his dream shake. To bad I can't really remember watching Kareem doing those hook shots enough to have really appreciated at that time. MJ fadeaway and Carters fadeaway. Let me see, MJ did almost hit around a 50% clip compared to VC 45 to 46% before VC injuries. MJ noticablely hit at a higher effientcy. BTW, does anybody know if there's a gif of Hakeem faking out the admiral during the 95 WCF?
I love Vince Carter, But to say his fadeaway is the best in the league right now and to go out on a limb and compare it to arguably the greatest player of all times fadeaway is just absurd. Vince Carter is a good player, probably top 15-20 but I dont see where you are coming from. The best move ever is Shaq's Drop Step, Then MJ's Fadeaway, and The Finally The Sky Hook.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Hunter:</div><div class="quote_post">I love it how commentators say such things, especially thosed that are biased towards their home team. I mean what would he say to his audience, "Carter's fadeaway is unblockable, however Pippen and Garnett could block it."? No way, they are paid to say stuff like that and I hate to burst your bubble, but Carter's shot is no "unblockable" or "unstoppable" as you may say. There is no question he gets a high elevation off of it, however in my opinion a prime Scottie Pippen would absolutely destroy Carter and expose all of his weaknesses as a basketball player.</div> Just because I'm from Toronto, just because I'm a Raptors fan, just because Leo Rautins is the Raptor's commentator, it doesn't mean we're bias. It's more like we're neutral. I will bash or praise Carter whenever necessary. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">About the unblockable thing, I remember seeing Lamar Odom block his shot thig year and Rautins saying Carter's got to be carful with Odom guarding him because he can move back but with his extremly long reach can still recover and block his shot. I think Carter got blocked twice by Odom that game.</div> Yes, you're right. I'm not going to say "no he didn't, Odom never blocked his shot". Carter was completely unaware of Odom when he surprisingly contested the shot, therefore getting his fadeaway swat. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you serious? Put KG or Scottie on Carter and that is all he can do against them. There is a reason why teams play Carter to make him shoot more. It's because he relies on it so much that he ends up falling in love with it. Again Jordan never relied on his fadeaway all the time. It was a means to an end (the end being him scoring the basket)</div> So you're saying 10 times out of 10, they will literally stop his fadeaways right? Since you're making assumptions, I'll say assumptions of my own. Not even that fraud defender Bruce Bowen and the 2004 Defensive Player Of The Year would be able to reach Carter, because they obviously don't have the same amount of elevation as him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Alrite guys, it is so amusing to read the posts of Jordan and Carters fadeaway shot. I would say Carter has about the same fadeaway as Jordans roughly the same, its just that Carter gets blocked sometimes cuz he takes the shot at the wrong times sometimes and gets blocked. Its not that Jordan's fadeaway is invincible, its that he uses it at the best possible times to go in. Its about the same thing just the wrong timing sometimes. They both look about the same to me. Of course many would say Carter's fade should never be compared to Jordan, which is a bit biased in saying this too. Obviously since Jordan won many championships ppl are saying this, but Jordan didnt just take invincible fades to win. Personally I feel Carters fade is pretty tough to guard too, not invincible but it is really tough to guard. Ben Wallace blocked him already, and Lamar Odom, b/c they watched many tapes on Carter and know what he's gonna do. But if it was Jordan doing it at that time as well chances are he would've been blocked too. Its all about timing, when u decide to do things, b/c if someone knows what ur gonna do, everyone will collapse on u and ur gonna lose most of the time, unless you are very tall and ppl can't reach you. As a player you cant really compare Carter to Jordan, but as far as the fadeaways go, they're pretty much about the same.</div> Other than Vince's fadeaway getting swat three times (twice by Odom and once by Ben), I don't recall him ever getting his fadeaway getting swat, or even his normal jumper in general. I'm saying Vince's fadeaway is just as good as Jordans in terms of how they glide and their body control when they fadeaway. I don't think that's what you guys are basing it on. It's more like his higher frequency of converting from a fadeaway more than Carter, and his label as the greatest player of all time that makes all of you think Vince's is nothing. Lets just leave it there.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">Just because I'm from Toronto, just because I'm a Raptors fan, just because Leo Rautins is the Raptor's commentator, it doesn't mean we're bias. It's more like we're neutral. I will bash or praise Carter whenever necessary. </div> Isn't that the guy who yelled "put him (Carter) in the Hall of Fame right now!!!" after Vince scored a bucket ..... if that's not a sign of bias, well.........i guess that words means different things in different areas Anyway, my favorite move was probably Timmy Hardaway's killer crossover. That was just nasty....Hakeems dreamshake was great, but sometimes I question whether or not he's travelling. btw, that move he did on Robinson...that was sooo travelling....I love Hakeem tho, greatest center I ever saw
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Isn't that the guy who yelled "put him (Carter) in the Hall of Fame right now!!!" after Vince scored a bucket ..... if that's not a sign of bias, well.........i guess that words means different things in different areas</div>Actually that is Chuck Swirsky that said that. He is equally as bad as Leo. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">Just because I'm from Toronto, just because I'm a Raptors fan, just because Leo Rautins is the Raptor's commentator, it doesn't mean we're bias. It's more like we're neutral. I will bash or praise Carter whenever necessary. </div>I agree that Leo Rautins is pretty fair in his assessments of Carter but not this time. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">So you're saying 10 times out of 10, they will literally stop his fadeaways right? Since you're making assumptions, I'll say assumptions of my own. Not even that fraud defender Bruce Bowen and the 2004 Defensive Player Of The Year would be able to reach Carter, because they obviously don't have the same amount of elevation as him. </div>Yes I am saying that. Also there is no way you are comparing Bruce Bowen to KG and Scottie Pippen. These guys are freaks of nature who would kill Carter if they defended him. Scottie has those long arms and KG has too much length and agility for Carter. Also if you are saying that Artest didn't stop Carter when they were playing each other than I guess you are not watching their games because he owned him almost every time he guarded him. Now to my points: First of all: Carters fadeaway is nowhere near as consistent as Jordans fade was. I thought this is the most important point as to why players would do a fadeaway? What the point is a fadeaway if it is not consistent in the first place??? Sure it can look good but if it don't go in on a consistent basis don't even bother mentioning Carter's name anywhere near the vicinity of Jordan's. Second of all: Carter does not even use the fadeaway properly. What is the point of dribbling the ball for 5 seconds and just popping up and fading away? He just doesn't use the fadeaway with a smart basketball mind. If you have seen both careers you would know that Carter's fadeaway does not even come close to Jordan's fadeaway in any way shape or form. Jordan didn't put up dumb shots like that. He actually posted his man most of the time and used his fade as a weapon. He had so many drop steps and pump fakes that defenders had no idea what to do with him. Not to mention the fact that the fadeaway was always MONEY for him. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">Other than Vince's fadeaway getting swat three times (twice by Odom and once by Ben), I don't recall him ever getting his fadeaway getting swat, or even his normal jumper in general. I'm saying Vince's fadeaway is just as good as Jordans in terms of how they glide and their body control when they fadeaway. I don't think that's what you guys are basing it on. It's more like his higher frequency of converting from a fadeaway more than Carter, and his label as the greatest player of all time that makes all of you think Vince's is nothing. Lets just leave it there.</div>So your point is that Carters fadeaway looks just as good as Jordans but converting a higher frequency doesn't count for anything?? You think that everyone is being biased by disagreeing with you but maybe it is because we have actually seen Jordan play in our generation and comparing his fadeaway shot to Carter's is like comparing a Mercedes SLK to a Mazda Protege.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post"> Other than Vince's fadeaway getting swat three times (twice by Odom and once by Ben), I don't recall him ever getting his fadeaway getting swat, or even his normal jumper in general. I'm saying Vince's fadeaway is just as good as Jordans in terms of how they glide and their body control when they fadeaway. I don't think that's what you guys are basing it on. It's more like his higher frequency of converting from a fadeaway more than Carter, and his label as the greatest player of all time that makes all of you think Vince's is nothing. Lets just leave it there.</div> I dont think you really read what I had to say, i wasnt bashing Vince, i was merely saying they are both the same in fadeaways, just the time u operate it, and now ur arguing me that they are both the same or just as good as each other. Well that is what I just said! U should really read my paragraph before going off and complainin like that.
The term "Dream shake" has multiple meanings. Some sports journalists use the term to refer to virtually Hakeem's entire repetoire which is misleading. For instance, when Hakeem schooled David Robinson on the baseline with his "crossover, double-fake, up-and-under" move, some called that a product of his "Dream Shake." It wasn't. That's just a move he improvised on the spot. Hakeem had all sorts of improvisations like that and was unparalleled in that respect amongst big men. But it doesn't all fall under the category of "Dream Shake." The "Dream Shake" is a specific move Hakeem utilized with his back to the basket in the left-side low blocks, his primary operating area, to destabilize the post defender and any help defenders as well as get himself into a rhythm to unleash his maneuver. It was simply a shake, much like what a gifted home-run hitter will do with his bat just before the swing. The end result, more often than not, was the patented turn-around baseline fadeway. His "Dream Shake" so often ended in that shot, in fact, that the local telecaster often would simply refer to the turn-around baseline shot itself as the "Dream Shake," regardless of any actual "shaking" preceding it. When he didn't take the turn-around shot, there were typically two other primary options. One was the lighting-quick baseline spin to the basket, the other his devastating jump hook in the lane (my personal favorite move of his). Of course, any of the maneuvers which followed the dream shake could also entail a series of pump fakes and pivot moves, which he was also a master at. As a Houston fan, of course I'm biased, but the "Dream Shake" is my personal favorite. But the greatest signature move of all time has to be Wilt Chamberlain's finger-roll shot. That's just a thing of beauty. The guy could be five feet away from the basket with his back turned, and he'd explode into the air twisting his body towards the lane while extending his right arm towards the basket grasping the basketball like its an orange or something. And then with a click flick of the wrist that seems to happen all in one motion the ball gently falls into the hoop. What's amazing about the shot is the way he made it look so easy. Yet you know its a difficult move to pull off, because you NEVER see any big men today ever utilize it. It requires a combination of skill, touch, athleticism, and strength that no one in the league possesses.
To the guy that was convinced that VC's fadeaway is about as good as MJ's.. so are you saying that if I can jump high, move well in the air (under control) while I'm doing my fadeaway but then shoots bricks and airballs all day long, my fadeaway is still as good as MJs? Ridiculous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">To the guy that was convinced that VC's fadeaway is about as good as MJ's.. so are you saying that if I can jump high, move well in the air (under control) while I'm doing my fadeaway but then shoots bricks and airballs all day long, my fadeaway is still as good as MJs? Ridiculous.</div> Don't even bring yourself in this. No one can glide in the air with control like Jordan and Carter, but you're saying Carter shoots bricks and airballs? People need to watch some games. I remember when Jordan did fadeaways over two Cavalier player labeled as "The Shot 2" and when he did a tough fadeaway over the Hawk's Steve Smith. Vince has been making those throughout his whole career, but they weren't buzzer beaters, and Jordan has made those shots more than Carter <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I dont think you really read what I had to say, i wasnt bashing Vince, i was merely saying they are both the same in fadeaways, just the time u operate it, and now ur arguing me that they are both the same or just as good as each other. Well that is what I just said! U should really read my paragraph before going off and complainin like that.</div> Actually I did read your paragraph. My first sentence was the only sentence that was referring to your your paragraph And CourtVision, I understand you. No need to keep countering me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 30 standing ver:</div><div class="quote_post"> BTW, does anybody know if there's a gif of Hakeem faking out the admiral during the 95 WCF?</div> here's a .mov file of it. I'm sure someone out here can convert it to a gif file. http://www.nba.com/0001Video/olajuwon_shake_052495.mov
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting torrr:</div><div class="quote_post">here's a .mov file of it. I'm sure someone out here can convert it to a gif file. http://www.nba.com/0001Video/olajuwon_shake_052495.mov</div> haha, thanks. that was just sick. Olajuwon with that much agility at seven feet....amazing.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">Vince has been making those throughout his whole career, but they weren't buzzer beaters, and Jordan has made those shots more than Carter </div> I'm guessing u are judging this by watching a lot of Toronto games and very few Bulls game...you're simply judging Vince's whole career against Jordan highlights...
Chungster, do you honestly think that Carter's percentage on his fadeaway is anywhere close to Jordan's? Do you think he's utilized it in nearly as many clutch situations as Jordan? Carter has never been on a decent team in his life. If his fade-away was just as good as Jordan's, as you contend, tell me why he can never lead his team to any sort of playoff success? If his is such a stupendous go-to move, why do his teams perenially suck? My favorite Barkely quote this year. You remember how Kenny Smith nicknamed Vince Carter "half-man, half-amazing," when he used to be a great player? Barkley calls him "half-man, half-season." Hahaha. I busted a gut on that one.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">So you're saying 10 times out of 10, they will literally stop his fadeaways right? Since you're making assumptions, I'll say assumptions of my own. Not even that fraud defender Bruce Bowen and the 2004 Defensive Player Of The Year would be able to reach Carter, because they obviously don't have the same amount of elevation as him.</div> So you're saying that if you can shoot a fadeaway J without it getting blocked, it's anywhere near Jordan's? First of all, it doesn't end at getting off the shot. You have to consistently make them and of course win games with them for it to be considered anywhere near Jordan's.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Carter has never been on a decent team in his life. If his fade-away was just as good as Jordan's, as you contend, tell me why he can never lead his team to any sort of playoff success? If his is such a stupendous go-to move, why do his teams perenially suck? </div> Tha Raptors went to the conference semifinals 3 years ago, I think that was some sort of playoff success, don't you?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Tha Raptors went to the conference semifinals 3 years ago, I think that was some sort of playoff success, don't you?</div> Getting past the first round in a weak Eastern conference three years ago qualifies as playoff success? If Carter's fadeaway was "as good" as Jordan's, then getting whipped in the second round of the playoffs would NOT be a successful playoff run. If Carter's best move was as good as Jordan's best move, then the expectations for his team should be at least getting to the Conference finals, or better.
Who's talking about the stupid fadeaway garbage, I'm talking about them not being succesful, I don't care about his fadeaway, read the whole thread, I said seven times that it doesn't compare to Jordan's.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Who's talking about the stupid fadeaway garbage, I'm talking about them not being succesful, I don't care about his fadeaway, read the whole thread, I said seven times that it doesn't compare to Jordan's. </div> Fine, but then you missed the context of my post. Given Chungster assertion that Vince's move was as good as Jordan's, his playoff performance has been pitiful. If we're talking about "playoff success" in absolute terms, then alright getting to the second round might be considered decent. But the fact is "playoff success" is only meaningful if we're talking about it relative to the personnel on the team. The Miami Heat had a successful playoff run getting into the second round. The Spurs had a bad playoff run NOT getting to the third round. Given Chungster's assertion about Carter's best move being as good as Jordan's, him not getting past the second round qualifies as zero playoff success in my book.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm guessing u are judging this by watching a lot of Toronto games and very few Bulls game...you're simply judging Vince's whole career against Jordan highlights...</div> Does it matter? It's quality, not quantity. If you're considering quantity, then I'll consider how watching Jordan's highlights alone makes his fadeaway is a mere notch above Vince's, or basically roughly at the same level, despite watching Vince's whole career. But for the last time, I'm judging their fadeaways based on how they glide, their body control, and how unstoppable their fadeaways are. Do you ignore my significant points or what? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Getting past the first round in a weak Eastern conference three years ago qualifies as playoff success? If Carter's fadeaway was "as good" as Jordan's, then getting whipped in the second round of the playoffs would NOT be a successful playoff run. If Carter's best move was as good as Jordan's best move, then the expectations for his team should be at least getting to the Conference finals, or better.</div> I don't see how Carter's signature move would have any relation with the extent you go through the playoffs
