<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SunnyD @ Jan 1 2007, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>0 Recognition? Give me a break. TJ Ford is considered one of the best young point guards in the league, when I think he is behind Devin Harris, Jameer Nelson, Deron Williams, Raymond Felton, etc. Top Five Passer Point Guard? That's fair, that's your opinion. My top five doesn't include him. My top five in alphabetical order is:-Chauncey Billups-Jason Kidd-Andre Miller-Steve Nash-Eric SnowThen Bobby Jackson is right after them.</div>Wow, are tyou serious? TJ is clearly ahead of those guys besides Deron Williams maybe..Are you on crack? I have TJ 4th/5th on the top passer list.TJ is lightyears ahead of all of those guys offensively with the exception of Deron Williams.
C: Jeff FosterFoster is one of the best rebounders in the NBA, and he can get it done on both the offensive and defensive glass. He's a very tough player, a hard worker, a good guy to have around, and he is not a bad low post defender.PF: Udonis HaslemHaslem has some of the same qualities as Foster: good rebounder, tough, hard worker, physical player. But he also has to be respected from 13-15 feet, and he is build like a tank. Haslem is one of those guys you can count on for a near double-double every night, and I think he is overlooked.SF: Andrei KirilenkoPeople don't talk about him like he's an elite player in the league, but the fact of the matter is that he is a star player. He is an excellent man to man defender, he can block shots, he's versatile, he can play both forward positions and still guard most star SG's, he can rebound, he's a good passer, he has a great feel for the game, and his wife lets him have sex with other women. LOL. But seriously, the guy gets it done on both ends of the floor, and just because he doesn't score 20-25 points a night, he is never talked about as a star.SG: Rip HamiltonThis guy is a complete nightmare of a defensive assignment. He can run for days without getting tired, literally. He has THE BEST mid-range game in the league, he obviously moves great without the ball, he's always in the right place at the right time, he's probably the best conditioned NBA player (as far as speed and stamina goes), he's clutch, he's a very hard worker, he's a winner, and a leader. Also, I think he is underrated defensively. People don't talk about him enough.PG: Brevin KnightHe's one of the best playmakers/passers in the NBA, he's an excellent veteran leader, he is a solid defender with very sneaky hands, he's quick, he's consistent, he can post up pretty well depending on the size of the defender, he's a pretty good rebounding PG, he can hit jump shots if you leave him open, and he always gives 110%. He's very overlooked because he plays in Charlotte, but he is an excellent point guard and floor general.I also have to throw in Eric Snow. He won't give you anything in fantasy leagues, but this guy is one of the most controlled and heady players I have seen growing up. He really limits his mistakes and he rarely turns the ball over or makes a bad pass, he's a solid defender (still), he can hit an open 15 footer on the baseline, he always plays hard, he's a leader, he's a very smart person (on and off the court), and he's the epitome of a true team player. He is the type of guy that will go on to be a very successful coach, if he chooses. Any team would love to have a guy like Eric Snow.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jan 1 2007, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, are tyou serious? TJ is clearly ahead of those guys besides Deron Williams maybe..Are you on crack? I have TJ 4th/5th on the top passer list.TJ is lightyears ahead of all of those guys offensively with the exception of Deron Williams.</div>Haha wow you overrate TJ Ford SOOOOO much. He is clearly not a top five passer OR point guard in the NBA. IMO Nash, Kidd, Paul, Miller, Davis, Billups, Williams, Iverson, Arenas, Parker, and Bibby are all better point guyard, and most of those guys are better passers than him too. If you think he's a top 4-5 passer, you must really only watch the Raptors games, because he clearly is not.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Jan 1 2007, 09:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Haha wow you overrate TJ Ford SOOOOO much. He is clearly not a top five passer OR point guard in the NBA. IMO Nash, Kidd, Paul, Miller, Davis, Billups, Williams, Iverson, Arenas, Parker, and Bibby are all better point guyard, and most of those guys are better passers than him too. If you think he's a top 4-5 passer, you must really only watch the Raptors games, because he clearly is not.</div>Ah...I think he is better than Bibby. You are wrong about most of those guys being better passers though. That is simply not true. TJ is an amazing passer, and like I said before, is 2nd in AP48 minutes. If he played as much as some of these guys his numbers would be around 17 and 9..
Numbers are overrated. You persist in throwing the exact same worthless stats around. Yeah, assists per 48 minutes matters a lot, NOT. When would he play 48 minutes a game aside from overtime? That one stat you throw around does not make him a better point guard or passer than anyone else. Assists stats have a lot to do with your other teammates knocking down shots, and the Raptors are a pretty good shooting team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yankshater213 @ Jan 1 2007, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Numbers are overrated. You persist in throwing the exact same worthless stats around. Yeah, assists per 48 minutes matters a lot, NOT. When would he play 48 minutes a game aside from overtime? That one stat you throw around does not make him a better point guard or passer than anyone else. Assists stats have a lot to do with your other teammates knocking down shots, and the Raptors are a pretty good shooting team.</div>Yeah, but in CB4's defense, T.J. Ford is a good playmaker (top 10 NBA playmaker, IMO). I hate stats, and I especially hate when people shell them out so much in debates, but it's not like all of his assists are kickouts to shooters. He penetrates, draws all the attention to himself because of his quickness and craftiness, and he finds the open man (whether they are under the basket, standing 17 feet from the hoop, or lined up on the 3-point line). He is a good playmaker.At the same time, I don't think he's underrated.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Jan 1 2007, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yeah, but in CB4's defense, T.J. Ford is a good playmaker (top 10 NBA playmaker, IMO). I hate stats, and I especially hate when people shell them out so much in debates, but it's not like all of his assists are kickouts to shooters. He penetrates, draws all the attention to himself because of his quickness and craftiness, and he finds the open man (whether they are under the basket, standing 17 feet from the hoop, or lined up on the 3-point line). He is a good playmaker.At the same time, I don't think he's underrated.</div>Well I feel the same way. I never said Ford was a bad playmaker and PG, hell I've even said he was good, but when I stack him up against other people, CB4 makes it sound like I said he sucked, which I don't. I definitely agree that he's a top 10 playmaker, although I still feel he drops somewhere between 7 and 10. He's definitely not top five though.
PG: Andre Miller - A top 5 pure PG who is constantly over looked because of SGs who want to be PGs (Iverson, Arenas, ...).SG: Andre Iguodala - for reasons mentioned earlier in thread.SF: Josh Howard - see the Howard vs Marion thread.PF: Elton Brand - He plays for LA step child team so he always takes a backseat to Kobe or Shaq or (insert Laker here) whenever they do something of any importance. With the exception of last year he puts up strong numbers and no one mentions him at all.C: Emeka Okafor
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SunnyD @ Jan 1 2007, 11:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're a fool. Tinsley is an elite point guard? That's bullcrap. I'm not even going to argue with that.</div>co-signed
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jan 1 2007, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, are tyou serious? TJ is clearly ahead of those guys besides Deron Williams maybe..Are you on crack? I have TJ 4th/5th on the top passer list.TJ is lightyears ahead of all of those guys offensively with the exception of Deron Williams.</div>Tyeah I'm serious!Hey, it's just one guys opinion. I don't think it's wrong, and obviously you do. No, I'm not on crack. I think your passer list sucks. TJ is not clearly ahead of those guys.Offensively, he is ahead of Shaun Livingston, but that defense really kills him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SunnyD @ Jan 2 2007, 06:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tyeah I'm serious!Hey, it's just one guys opinion. I don't think it's wrong, and obviously you do. No, I'm not on crack. I think your passer list sucks. TJ is not clearly ahead of those guys.Offensively, he is ahead of Shaun Livingston, but that defense really kills him.</div>You're a moron if you think all of the guys you listed are better than TJ. TJ averages 16 and 8 in a mere 32 minutes of play! He is 2nd in the league in AP48M and a great overall passer.You do you justify those those guys being better than TJ? I can agree with maybe Deron Williams, but the rest are just absurd. You seem to have some bias against the Raptors, and TJ, and it's getting old.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jan 2 2007, 05:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You're a moron if you think all of the guys you listed are better than TJ. TJ averages 16 and 8 in a mere 32 minutes of play! He is 2nd in the league in AP48M and a great overall passer.You do you justify those those guys being better than TJ? I can agree with maybe Deron Williams, but the rest are just absurd. You seem to have some bias against the Raptors, and TJ, and it's getting old.</div>That AP48M is just stupid, according to NBA.com Sergio Rodriguez would average 14.7 assists per game in 48 minutes, and Jacque Vaughn would average 13.8 assisters per game in 48 minutes of playing time. Both of those are ahead of TJ Ford, so he is not second on the per 48 minutes scale according to NBA.com. I think TJ Ford is a good passer, but I think he is about the 8th or 9th best passer in the league, and not top 5 at all.
Yeah, but AP48M is alot more accurate when you play 30+ minutes and totaln a high apg number. If you just play 10 minutes and get 2 assists, than your AP48M will be bloated, but since TJ gets a lot of assists in 30+ minutes, it is believable that if he played 6 more minutes, he would atleast get 1 more. I don't see why you think TJ is as low as 8th or 9th in the top passers list..You seem to be biased against TJ too. What's with it? He still is 7th in the apg totals even though all the pg's high up on that list play like 5-6 more mins than TJ...If he played as much as them, you have to believe that he would atleast be top 4 in apg...
As good as his passing is, do you not think there is a reason why he doesn't play as much as the other point guards? He doesn't play defense, and they are just better passers and players than TJ Ford. I am not biased against him I just don't think he is the passer that you crack him up to be. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Raymond Felton, Brevin Knight, and Chauncey Billups are all better passers in my opinion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jan 2 2007, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As good as his passing is, do you not think there is a reason why he doesn't play as much as the other point guards? He doesn't play defense, and they are just better passers and players than TJ Ford. I am not biased against him I just don't think he is the passer that you crack him up to be. Steve Nash, Jason Kidd, Andre Miller, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Raymond Felton, Brevin Knight, and Chauncey Billups are all better passers in my opinion.</div>Why would we bench TJ because of defense? Our backup, Jose Calderon is just as bad defensively as TJ, so what would be the point? He doesn't play as many minutes as those other guys because we have a very good backup pg who is very good at taking it to the rim, and orchestrates the offense well. I think it is 1. Nash, 2. Kidd, 3. Paul, 4. Miller, 5. TJ Ford. I think TJ is right up there. I don't agree with your opinion at all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Jan 2 2007, 05:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why would we bench TJ because of defense? Our backup, Jose Calderon is just as bad defensively as TJ, so what would be the point? He doesn't play as many minutes as those other guys because we have a very good backup pg who is very good at taking it to the rim, and orchestrates the offense well. I think it is 1. Nash, 2. Kidd, 3. Paul, 4. Miller, 5. TJ Ford. I think TJ is right up there. I don't agree with your opinion at all.</div>I think your completely wrong putting Ford ahead of Williams, Knight and Felton. Felton is a better passer, and maybe one of the best in the league giving more primary minutes as the ball handler. Ever since Felton has taken over the point guarding duties after Brevin Knight got hurt he is averaging about 11 assists per game. He was a better passer in college, and is just a better passer in the NBA also. You can use your higher assists per game, he was sharing point guard duties with a MUCH better point guard than Jose Calderon and still had 7.3 assists per game compared to Ford's 8.1 assists per game. Felton can see the floor and make passes with the best of them, and just does it better than Ford. Had Knight not been there all season, Felton would have more assists per game than Ford would at this given moment.Knight played 33 minutes a game, which is only half a minute more than TJ Ford plays per game. Then you add in that he was also sharing point guard and ball handling duties for ALOT of that time with Raymond Felton, who is a better player than both Ford and Calderon. So in total, Ford was the main ball handler many more minutes per game than Knight was. Knight once again still averaged 7.4 assists per game compared to Ford's 8.1. So given 32.5 minutes per game, as the primary ball handler without Felton and you would be seeing much different circumstances.Deron Williams already averages more assists per game than Ford does. I know you are going to use the minutes per game thing, but its because he is a better passer than Ford that he gets to stay on the court for longer periods of time. Just look who he is beating out at the point guard spot. He is beating out Derek Fisher a former starting point guard for 3 championship teams and a better NBA player than Jose Calderon in my eyes.
PG - Andre Miller- I don't like many PG's in the NBA right now, this is a guy I've always liked. He's steady, tough, good passer and one guy I'd like leading my team. His shot selection is pretty good and his shooting percentages are higher than most younger points. Good playmaker and one of the top few 'real' points in the league. SG - Kevin Martin- Here's the kind of guy I really like, someone that can score 20 points without demanding the ball a lot. Kevin Martin just gets it done, he's an underrated athlete with long arms, and has come out of nowhere. His shot selection is superb and his shooting percentages are better than most PF's and he shoots over 40% from three. Slippery like a wet noodle when going to the basket. SF - Danny Granger- A good role player in Indiana, he shoots a good percentage and hits 40% on his three's. Plays some defense and runs the floor well for his size. He can score, rebound, block a shot. Staying in school really helped his all around game and fundamentals. PF - Ryan Gomes- Another guy I'd love to have on my team, if you have not noticed one of my things is effectiveness without having the ball. He doesn't need the ball in his hands to be effective and does a little bit of everything. C - Jeff Foster- One of my favorite players, gives a ton of effort on defense, great rebounder and especially on offense. Has good quickness for the position and is a nice athlete. Not many guys play as hard as he does.
