<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jul 18 2007, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thats just one year. They both averaged 30.1 on their careers, and Michael shot more fg's. Thats just because Michael played 1 more year. Wilt still shot better from the field. .537 vs. .497. I think its safe to say Wilt was the better scorer, but MJ was the far better shooter.</div>Despite MJ having been 4% worse for career, MJ took less than half a shot more per game, which mkaes the FG % difference nullified. In other words, to ge tthose 30PPG, MJ took less than half a shot more per game. For a perimeter scorer, that is incredible. Not to mention those numbers are including MJ's 2nd comeback, where he was around 40, had injuries, had to lose 40lbs to get back into game shape, etc...Shooting is a huge part of scoring, buddy. MJ having such a great shooting % and his scoring numbers are more staggering to me than Wilt's because the era he was in and the fact that MJ is a 6'6'' swingman and Wilt was a 7'2'' giant who was taller and more muscular than anyone in his era (remember, guys like Bill Russell were smaller than LeBron James). MJ was a much more balanced scorer, and unlike with Wilt, you can't foul him at end of game or he will make you pay (Wilt was a 50% FT shooter).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 18 2007, 06:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Despite MJ having been 4% worse for career, MJ took less than half a shot more per game, which mkaes the FG % difference nullified. In other words, to ge tthose 30PPG, MJ took less than half a shot more per game. For a perimeter scorer, that is incredible. Not to mention those numbers are including MJ's 2nd comeback, where he was around 40, had injuries, had to lose 40lbs to get back into game shape, etc...Shooting is a huge part of scoring, buddy. MJ having such a great shooting % and his scoring numbers are more staggering to me than Wilt's because the era he was in and the fact that MJ is a 6'6'' swingman and Wilt was a 7'2'' giant who was taller and more muscular than anyone in his era (remember, guys like Bill Russell were smaller than LeBron James). MJ was a much more balanced scorer, and unlike with Wilt, you can't foul him at end of game or he will make you pay (Wilt was a 50% FT shooter).</div>So your basically saying that field goal percentage doesn't count, because on average, every four games, he took 2 more shots? Do you know what type of difference that would make? That would change your fg% (based on you taking 50 shots and scoring 30 vs. scoring 30 and taking 52) by a whopping .03%? I said Wilt was the better scorer because he got points in way easier than Jordan. Jordan took tougher shots, and got them in as well,but could never score as easily as Wilt could. Ok factor in the era thing and your obviously going to say MJ has the edge, but we could say that for everything about Wilt, and then his stats would literally mean nothing. I would agree to saying MJ is the better player, more skilled, talented, etc...but not better scorer. Wilt did that with ease.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Jul 18 2007, 05:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So your basically saying that field goal percentage doesn't count, because on average, every four games, he took 2 more shots? Do you know what type of difference that would make? That would change your fg% (based on you taking 50 shots and scoring 30 vs. scoring 30 and taking 52) by a whopping .03%? I said Wilt was the better scorer because he got points in way easier than Jordan. Jordan took tougher shots, and got them in as well,but could never score as easily as Wilt could. Ok factor in the era thing and your obviously going to say MJ has the edge, but we could say that for everything about Wilt, and then his stats would literally mean nothing. I would agree to saying MJ is the better player, more skilled, talented, etc...but not better scorer. Wilt did that with ease.</div>I used the FGA as a measure of showing that while Wilt had a better FG %, it made practically 0 impact on the game as they are taking the same amount of shots to get the same amount of points. In his prime, Jordan was scoring at a 53-55% clip, most of them in the paint. It doesn't matter if they were harder shots as he still hit them. Let's say Wilt played against someone who could keep him out of the paint more than anyone else...Wilt's FG % is greatly dropping. When MJ lost the bulk of his athleticism during the 2nd 3 peat, he became the most deadly midrange jumpshooter in the game, and still shooting around or above 50%. And again, MJ's FT shooting over Wilt is a HUGE factor. Wilt's stats mean something, but you need perspective when looking at them. And as with any 2 players, big men are always going to be more efficient than perimeter players...for MJ to shoot well over 50% for about 90% of his career is amazing. And again, his last 2 years with the Wizards hurt his stats as he was 40, playing with injuries, playing with a totally different build, etc...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 18 2007, 06:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I used the FGA as a measure of showing that while Wilt had a better FG %, it made practically 0 impact on the game as they are taking the same amount of shots to get the same amount of points. In his prime, Jordan was scoring at a 53-55% clip, most of them in the paint. It doesn't matter if they were harder shots as he still hit them. Let's say Wilt played against someone who could keep him out of the paint more than anyone else...Wilt's FG % is greatly dropping. When MJ lost the bulk of his athleticism during the 2nd 3 peat, he became the most deadly midrange jumpshooter in the game, and still shooting around or above 50%. And again, MJ's FT shooting over Wilt is a HUGE factor. Wilt's stats mean something, but you need perspective when looking at them. And as with any 2 players, big men are always going to be more efficient than perimeter players...for MJ to shoot well over 50% for about 90% of his career is amazing. And again, his last 2 years with the Wizards hurt his stats as he was 40, playing with injuries, playing with a totally different build, etc...</div>The Wizards thing meant nothing. Chamberlain in his last 2 years had a huge decline as well. MJ was still jacking up 22 shots a game, same as he was jacking up that 1995-96 year. So really he didnt 'decline' as you make it seem to be, he just shot a lower percentage. Also, you say what if Wilt was playing against someone who can box him out, but the thing is, no one could, yes I factor in that era crap, but thats what mad Wilt score so easily, he could get in the paint when he pleased and score as much as he needed. To add, big men are never good at free throw shooting. Look at Shaq, his hands are so big he cant really aim the ball without throwing it all over the place. Thats just because of his size.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Jul 19 2007, 12:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>pg - magicsg - jordansf - pippenpf - birdc - russel</div>Jordan and Bird on the same starting lineup cuases too much demand for the ball. Eventually the offense would start becoming messy if both act as though they're number one options. I would switch Bird with a defensive minded PF with athletecism. Maybe go with Rodman as he fits the bill perfectly and has played with Jordan/Pippen.
[quote name='RaptorFan#1' post='419587' date='Jul 19 2007, 10:19 AM']The Wizards thing meant nothing. Chamberlain in his last 2 years had a huge decline as well. MJ was still jacking up 22 shots a game, same as he was jacking up that 1995-96 year.[/quote]Exactly, which is why his FG % went down so much. Had it not been for those 2 years he came back, he would have shot around 51% for career, only 2% less than Wilt. He was not healthy, he was playing at a weight about 20lbs heavier than he ever played at before, he had a slew of injuries, etc... He was not the same player he once was. So right there you are basically saying that the era had a big deal to do with his success?And for a guy who shot only 53% of his career, obviously he didn't always just dump it off in basket, even with 6'9'' centers on him. And as Wilt could get into the paint for a high % shot, MJ could as well through his driving. Yao Ming shoots well over 80% from the FT line, and Dirk around 90%. I don't want to hear the big man excuse. And it IS a big deal as it means in today's NBA, Wilt be riding the bench from the 5-2 minute mark in the 4th, and if he got the ball down low in clutch, he'd be sent to the line.MJ was the more talented overall scorer than Wilt, and always took as many shots to get his points as Wilt. MJ was pretty much always well over 50% shooting, 80% from the line, and usually a decent percentage from 3. Even with the "Jordan rules" he still dominated one of the greatest defensive teams ever in the Pistons. Jordan could not be stopped
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 19 2007, 12:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan and Bird on the same starting lineup cuases too much demand for the ball. Eventually the offense would start becoming messy if both act as though they're number one options. I would switch Bird with a defensive minded PF with athletecism. Maybe go with Rodman as he fits the bill perfectly and has played with Jordan/Pippen.</div>WTF? You think Bird or Magic would be calling for the ball when they'd be winning? No, those guys both put aside their egos to win.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Jul 19 2007, 12:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>WTF? You think Bird or Magic would be calling for the ball when they'd be winning? No, those guys both put aside their egos to win.</div>I'm not saying there would be off the court problems. I'm saying that putting two dynamic scorers at the level of Jordan and Bird would create a potentially messy offense.When did you ever see Magic in my post?
Bird is the ultimate team player. He can do it all on offence and is savy enough to provide what the team needs and not take away from the team concept. Basically the exact same thing he did in Barcelona in '92.Saying he'd demand the ball with so many great scorers on the floor is plain ignorant.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 19 2007, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bird is the ultimate team player. He can do it all on offence and is savy enough to provide what the team needs and not take away from the team concept. Basically the exact same thing he did in Barcelona in '92.Saying he'd demand the ball with so many great scorers on the floor is plain ignorant.</div>Exactly, thank you, you said it better than I could
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='419635' date='Jul 19 2007, 12:34 PM']Exactly, which is why his FG % went down so much. Had it not been for those 2 years he came back, he would have shot around 51% for career, only 2% less than Wilt.He was not healthy, he was playing at a weight about 20lbs heavier than he ever played at before, he had a slew of injuries, etc... He was not the same player he once was.[/quote]My point is, he wasnt shooting those because he had too, if your feeling as injury prone or unhealthy as you said, you wouldnt jack 20 a game.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='419635' date='Jul 19 2007, 12:34 PM']So right there you are basically saying that the era had a big deal to do with his success?[/quote]No, im saying that I know your going to tell me 'oh well he could score because he had puny men gaurding him' im saying I understand that, but he still deserves credit.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='419635' date='Jul 19 2007, 12:34 PM']And for a guy who shot only 53% of his career, obviously he didn't always just dump it off in basket, even with 6'9'' centers on him. And as Wilt could get into the paint for a high % shot, MJ could as well through his driving.[/quote]My main point is, Wilt could get in the paint way easier than Jordan could drive. Im saying he was a better scorer because he could do it way easier than Jordan could.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='419635' date='Jul 19 2007, 12:34 PM']Yao Ming shoots well over 80% from the FT line, and Dirk around 90%. I don't want to hear the big man excuse. And it IS a big deal as it means in today's NBA, Wilt be riding the bench from the 5-2 minute mark in the 4th, and if he got the ball down low in clutch, he'd be sent to the line.MJ was the more talented overall scorer than Wilt, and always took as many shots to get his points as Wilt. MJ was pretty much always well over 50% shooting, 80% from the line, and usually a decent percentage from 3. Even with the "Jordan rules" he still dominated one of the greatest defensive teams ever in the Pistons. Jordan could not be stopped[/quote]Neithier could Wilt. Once again, Ill say Michael Jordan was the better shooter, but Wilt the better scorer. The way I look at is, MJ was the more talented scorer, fadeaway, running shot, drives, etc... Wilt could do it with ease. His 100 point game proves so. The reason I give him the edge, because I believe Wilt when called upon, could score when he wanted to. The year he lead the league in assists was because people were blaming him for a being hog. The fact that he was so good at scoring he was always the first option he became too good and was the only one scoring, which is why I would say he is the better scorer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 19 2007, 01:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bird is the ultimate team player. He can do it all on offence and is savy enough to provide what the team needs and not take away from the team concept. Basically the exact same thing he did in Barcelona in '92.Saying he'd demand the ball with so many great scorers on the floor is plain ignorant.</div>If you're not utilizing Bird's shooting ability then there are more valuable people to take over him. Sure, Bird was versatile, however he is arguebely the best shooter ever to play in the NBA and he won't get many shots along-side Jordan. This situation would likely set up for a messy offense.
To Everyone who disagrees with Nitro: <u>Larry Bird does not have an ego.</u> That's why he'd be on my dream team. Imagine a superstar with Shane Battier personality.With Bench, here is my dream teamG Magic Johnson / John StocktonSG Michael Jordan / Joe Dumars / Reggie MillerSF Larry Bird / Scottie PippenPF Bill Russell / Tim Duncan / Dennis RodmanC Hakeem Olajuwon / Artis Gilmore
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SunnyD @ Jul 19 2007, 02:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To Everyone who disagrees with Nitro: <u>Larry Bird does not have an ego.</u> That's why he'd be on my dream team. Imagine a superstar with Shane Battier personality.</div>Okay this is just getting annoying now, I never said that Larry Bird had an ego and I wasn't even debating with Nitro in this thread.I said that Jordan and Bird wouldn't mesh together because of the amount of shots being taken. If you ask Bird to take less shots then there are better options to start at his position because although he's very versatile, there are other versatile players in the NBA who won't demand as many shots but will still score the ball a solid amount.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 19 2007, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Okay this is just getting annoying now, I never said that Larry Bird had an ego and I wasn't even debating with Nitro in this thread.I said that Jordan and Bird wouldn't mesh together because of the amount of shots being taken. If you ask Bird to take less shots then there are better options to start at his position because although he's very versatile, there are other versatile players in the NBA who won't demand as many shots but will still score the ball a solid amount.</div>Well I guess I wasn't talking to you then.He wouldn't demand shots. He would if he was the number one option. He is probably the best passer at that position of all time. He played solid defense, and he does all of the little things needed in order to win a basketball game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SunnyD @ Jul 19 2007, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well I guess I wasn't talking to you then.He wouldn't demand shots. He would if he was the number one option. He is probably the best passer at that position of all time. He played solid defense, and he does all of the little things needed in order to win a basketball game.</div>Larry Bird wouldn't specifically ask for jumpshots but why have him on your team if you're not going to utilize arguebely the best jumper the NBA has ever seen. As I said he was very versatile but wouldn't you rather have Scottie Pippen start at SF. He's just as talented of a passer, a very good rebounder, and would have great on the court chemistry with Jordan.Also, Pippen would be able to just play his game without certain aspects of his game being restricted.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SunnyD @ Jul 19 2007, 03:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well I guess I wasn't talking to you then.He wouldn't demand shots. He would if he was the number one option. He is probably the best passer at that position of all time. He played solid defense, and he does all of the little things needed in order to win a basketball game.</div>Larry Bird wouldn't specifically ask for jumpshots but why have him on your team if you're not going to utilize arguebely the best jumper the NBA has ever seen. As I said he was very versatile but wouldn't you rather have Scottie Pippen start at SF. He's just as talented of a passer, a very good rebounder, and would have great on the court chemistry with Jordan.Also, Pippen would be able to just play his game without certain aspects of his game being restricted.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 19 2007, 03:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Larry Bird wouldn't specifically ask for jumpshots but why have him on your team if you're not going to utilize arguebely the best jumper the NBA has ever seen. As I said he was very versatile but wouldn't you rather have Scottie Pippen start at SF. He's just as talented of a passer, a very good rebounder, and would have great on the court chemistry with Jordan.Also, Pippen would be able to just play his game without certain aspects of his game being restricted.</div>Obviously you would utilize his jumpers, not as often as the teams from the 80's Celtics squads, but you would still have him for that. I wouldn't rather have Pippen though. Bird was a much better passer than Pippen, the rebounding wouldn't really matter with Olajuwon, Jordan, Duncan, and Magic, and Bird would have great court chemistry with anyone, because he is just that good and adaptive.
[quote name='RaptorFan#1' post='419750' date='Jul 19 2007, 01:15 PM']My point is, he wasnt shooting those because he had too, if your feeling as injury prone or unhealthy as you said, you wouldnt jack 20 a game.[/quote]Who else was gonna take the shots? The Wizards were a pathetic team that Jordan came back to specifically to bring to the playoffs. Even at his old age with a totally different build and slew of injuries, he was still an all star caliber player and one of the better scorers in the league. Yes, but you have to realize that if he played the stronger, more athletic big men of the past 20 years, he is not going to have as easy of a time. His FG % would likely go down, and of course his PPG would go down. You must never have watched MJ in the '80's and early '90's. No matter the all-time defender that guarded him, the handchecking, a defense built specifically to stop him...he could do virtually whatever he wanted on the floor. In principle, yes, it is harder for a perimeter player to get into the paint than a big man, but MJ was the best of all time at getting to wherever he wanted to and finishing/drawing a foul (people complain about Wade, but MJ had seasons of over 11FTA). Again, look at the era Wilt was in. Let's say he was playing Shaq, and couldn't just do whatever he wanted with him physically...what's he gonna do? MJ could drive past any defender (Joe Dumars, Gary Payton, you name it) and finish in paint due to unstoppable athleticism. And if you piled up everyone in the paint to stop MJ, he could kill you with the midrange game. Thus, making him virtually unstoppable. If you called upon him, he could drop 50 or 60 anytime he wanted to, and did it in every style of play (purely driving like first few year sof his career, mix of driving and jumpshooting like up until around '97, then pure jumpshooting like he did in last 2 years as a Bull and with the Wizards he also dropped 50). And again, they took the same amount of shots to get the same amount of points, but MJ was a more versatile scorer who, if you shutdown one way to score, he'll drop 50 on you with another route. Wilt didn't have that kind of versatility.
Are you telling me that Pippen wouldn't demand shots? Pippen would demand more shots than Bird would, Bird would only demand shots if he felt it was necessary in order to win. Otherwise Bird is happy contributing any way in order to get the W. And Bird was very versatile, there was nothing he couldn't do except maybe jump 40 inches
