<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zackman)</div><div class='quotemain'>As I read this thread I have to ask one question four times. How many Patriot's were on the "expert's" top fifty NFL players lists at the start of 2002 season? How many Marlin's were on the "expert's" top fifty MLB players list before before the 2003 season? How many Lightining were on the "expert's" top fifty NHL players list before the 2003-04 season? How many Piston's were on the "expert's" top fifty NBA players list before the 2003-04 season? I don't want to see many Lions on that list! Team sports need team players ... period.</div> Excellent point, Zack! Initially, it was stated that Peyton wouldn't be there w/o Edgerrin. Hasn't PM played most of the last 2 seasons w/ an average E James? Its Marvin that Peyton would be lost w/o. Dawk; U say that Dawkins benefiting from B. Taylor & Vincent is okay but Ogunleye is living in the shadow J. Taylor. Please explain to me how that isn't that a bit two faced?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (blackadder)</div><div class='quotemain'> Dawk; U say that Dawkins benefiting from B. Taylor & Vincent is okay but Ogunleye is living in the shadow J. Taylor. Please explain to me how that isn't that a bit two faced?</div> Ok, Dawkins had to all pro corners sandwiching him, That takes away opprunities to make tackles when the WR dont make any catches. Adelwale, I'm not saying hes a bad DE, im saying so far hes a 1 year wonder, and i think thts because he hd the best bookend on the other side. THat will def. give him more opprunities to break his block and get to the quarterback. 2 opposite situations. Beef, you obviously dont watch Eagles games because if you did you would see what all analysist, experts, coaches, players and most NFL fans see, that Dawkins is a top 3 safety, if not tthe best(which titel he owned for a few yearS). This one isnt me looking through "green and silver glasses'' as you see, its you either wont give any Eagle player any credit because of Me, or you need glasses.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Philly_Freak93)</div><div class='quotemain'> Ok, Dawkins had to all pro corners sandwiching him, That takes away opprunities to make tackles when the WR dont make any catches. Adelwale, I'm not saying hes a bad DE, im saying so far hes a 1 year wonder, and i think thts because he hd the best bookend on the other side. THat will def. give him more opprunities to break his block and get to the quarterback. 2 opposite situations. Beef, you obviously dont watch Eagles games because if you did you would see what all analysist, experts, coaches, players and most NFL fans see, that Dawkins is a top 3 safety, if not tthe best(which titel he owned for a few yearS). This one isnt me looking through "green and silver glasses'' as you see, its you either wont give any Eagle player any credit because of Me, or you need glasses.</div> With the same logic, You could say Sammy Knight (who IMO is better than BD) did not have as many opportunities because of Madison & Surtain. That is weak. We know which fans think Brian is all that. But, which announcers (other than those who do Eagles play by play) give BD all the love you claim they do? McNabb, the overhyped, is the only Eagle that the National media give any love to. Also, Ogunleye has 24 sacks in 2 yrs which unless I'm off in the ozone is more than Kearse has in that same period. Javon came out of college w/ sick hype and other than his 1st season and a half HAS NOT lived up to his reputation.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (TheBeef)</div><div class='quotemain'>I would take Rodney Harrison over Dawkins any day of the week, he will give me something BD doesnt, All Pro level production....and as far as the "fear" thing goes, if players are afraid of anyone at safety its Rodney Harrison, hes proven over years to be a hard hitter who sometimes loses focus and hits illigally and dangerously....not a knock on him, but players know he could hurt them with a spear or a helmet to helmet collision... one note, Rodney Harrison is responsible for 2 Super Bowl wins in my opinion, last years Pats, and the 1999 Rams...without his preseason hit on Trent Green, Kurt Warner may never see the field and the Rams probable never catch lightning in a bottle....</div> I agree that Harrison is the best safety out there. Lynch, if healty, is his only equal.
I want to let you in a little secret IM, Im from Clemson, SC(actually Anderson, but its a few miles away)....which makes me a huge Brain Dawkins fan....I followed his career at Clemson and I follow him in the NFL, and Im tellign you, hes not nearly as good as you think he is....as far as what "analysts, experts, coaches, players and most NFL fans see", well there is no such thing as an "expert", analysts arent experts, they are opinionated fans with some knowledge, you cant be an expert about something unless its based on facts(by the way the facts, also known as stats) state that hes not who you think he is...
Dawk, the players you listed at top 5 at thier positions is incorrect. Mcnabb simon and dawkins are not locks for the top 5. simon and mcnabb definatley arent. Akers is a kicker. . . .A KICKER. I mean come on. The discussion on safeties has definately brought to light how over-rated dawk is. As for another team with a top 5 player at 5 different positions. Baltimore Ray Lewis Chris Mcallister Jawal Lewis Ed Reed J. Ogden and just for you a kicker Stover
ok baltimore, they still cant win 10+ games in the worst division. Dawk is def. top 5, ok ill give u Ed Reed and Roy, but what other S is better, maybe Rodney Harrison,? Lynch is on the downside and not the player people still think he was.
the following safeties are better Reed Williams Wilson Harrison Parrish Achuleta Darius D.jackson S.Knight R.woodson might be better M.Doss S.taylor K. hamlin L.schulters These are the ones i could come up with off the top of my head, i am sure there are more. Baltimore will win more games this year than philly
I want to put this debate to bed once and for all...I took the liberty of doing some research and came upon some intersting results...1st, Dawkins best season was 2000, he recorded 54 tackles and 4 ints....so I used that as a bench mark to see what other safeties produced....the following is a list of safeties whos 2003 seasons exceeded Brian Dawkins best ever season...as you can see, Dawks career hasnt been all that special....in fact, his best season whould have ranked him no better than 15th last season...the numbers represented are tackles/ints: Brent Alexander 63/4 Corey Chavous 75/8 Rodney Harrison 94/3 Dexter Jackson 75/6 Earl Little 42/6 Tony Parrish 62/9 Ed Reed 59/7 Brian Russell 78/9 Darren Sharper 68/5 Dwight Smith 62/5 Reggie Tongue 56/4 Greg Wesley 89/6 Aeneas Williams 59/4 Eugene Wilson 56/4 compared to Dawks best year : 54/4 ah, the pain of the truth....
Okay...... so i have problems with the list Kris Jenkins is definetely not worthy of being in the top 50 in the NFL PERIOD let alone be ahead of micheal strahan!!!!!! I rather have Sapp, Simon, or Glover plus there are plenty of more i prolly forgot Okay livin in Pa and seeing him almost every week on TV has helped see that dawkins is a great FS, i do think that the FS pool is very shallow right now in a while so its not a relyed on position. U talk all of this shockey crap but when it comes to ur team its falls upon deaf ears. U know i havent thrashed the eagles in a long time but i am starting to get a craving im infamous for freaking out over overated choke artist.......... i mean a certain team which will be nameless Do y'all like the little jackle and hide act i pulled???
beef ur wrong, his career high in tackles is 131. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Earned a Pro Bowl appearance in 2002 after leading the team with a career-high 131 tackles. Also set career highs in sacks (3), forced fumbles (7), and fumble recoveries (3)</div>-From Philadelphiaeagles.com just for some non-believers http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/team/tea...ails.jsp?id=260
Gf1, Jenkins is with out a doubt a top 3 DT, maybe better than Starahan becasue hes entering his prime wereas Strahan isnt. BF1, heres my resonse the following safeties are better Reed----Ok ill give u that Williams-Aneas? hell no, hes a dinosaur Wilson--SS, plus how many Probowls? Harrison-Maybe, same group as Dawk Parrish-yea right, whys he on the list? Achuleta-SS Darius--underrated, but how many pro-bowls?how many 100+tackle seasons D.jackson--SB MVP, thats it S.Knight--nahh R.woodson--another dino, better when he was in his prime, but not now might be better M.Doss---not yet S.taylor--how may games has he played? K. hamlin--who? L.schulters--now your just trying to piss me off with average S beig better than dawkins, iknow it
Hmmm the eagles website has higher totals(biased info). I looked and saw his highest tackle total as 67(solo tackles only) on a unbiased website(cbssportsline) he had a high of 4 ints and 5 ffs(not in same years) with a high of 3 sacks. but you keep the wool over your eyes.
CBS is also the website that employs Pete Prisco. why would the eagles be biased? they watch the film and make their own stats just like every other teams. they stat makers watch it once.
ok my response to your analysis of my list 1. Reed - gave it to me, your are right to agree with me 2.williams - roy williams not aeneas. 3. wilson - 47 tackles 4 ints last year, i may have had him confused with someone else and retract his name 4.Harrison - almost 100 solo tackles a season. to dawk at 50 solos(used nfl.com stats also much lower than eagles website curiously) 5.Parrish - 16 ints last 2 seasons dawkins 21 for his career. 6.Archuleta you say SS the second S is for safety and guess what he is a better one than Dawkins averaging over 70 tackles(solo) to dawks 50 7. Darius - tackle and pick numbers almost exactly same as dawks and he never had two shut down corners shrinking the field for him. 8. Jackson - in three years as starter same tackle totals as dawkins, and averages way more picks. 4.3 to 2.75 9. S.Knight - averages about 10 more tackles a season and has 5 of 7 seasons with more picks than dawkins best season. 10. R.woodson. As he grows older his skills are diminishes to same level as dawkins 11. M.Doss 73 tackles(solo) his FIRST season better than dawkins career best 12. S.taylor. Never played a game, but he was a top 10 pick he has talent and you know as well the rest of us he will be better. 13. K Hamlin 76 tackles(solo) his first season better than dawks career high. 14. L. Schulters - averaged same tackles(slightly higher) as dawkins and has had two 6 pick season which is better than dawks career high of 5 also darren sharper - 70 tackles a season - and last four seasons has pick totals of 5,7,6,9 all equal to or greater than dawks career high.
Everyone better read this because it took me 30minutes to gather the info and put it all togther. Tackles are the most overrated stat, it doesnt show anything but a stop. it doesnt show a stop at the 1 yardline from the other 1. Its not showing what really counts, Dawkins played in a secondary were he was really a 3rd CB/ DE, and neither of those to positions get tackles. the way he played was cover/ double a WR, or rush the qb. Your tackles are dictated by your position, DTs get the tackles for loss, LBs get the majority of tackles, then the SS, then the FS and 2 CBs. most of the S you listed were SS(Strong Safetys) which play closer to the line, and play on the side favoring the run(strong side=xtra blocker), so naturally Dawkins would be on the weakside, in a top secondary. He wont get a lot of WR to tackle because they wont get the catches, and he wont get alot of run plays because hes farthest away from the ball. As for the INTs, dawkins doesnt have great hands. but he does defend passes, averaging 9 per season, their like his INTs. -Tony PArrish-averaged in the 60s, and had 1 year of 91(solo) also plays SS -Roy Williams-Natural SS playing FS, his numbers this year are very low from his career high, also has the picks, but not the passes defended that dawkins has averaged 9 per season. RW has 9 in his career. -Adrian Wilson-another SS, never had 9 Passes defended in a seson, and doesnt have the blitzing ability or the tackles -Rodney Harrison-What do you know anothe SS, like i said, a player like dawkins, similiar stats in Sacks and PD, close in INTs, but rodney has the tackles on him but also plays SS -Adam Archuleta-SS, played 3 seasons had 47, 102, then 72 Tackles over his career, to inconsistnet, plus doesnt have the passes defended or THE INTERCEPTIONS dawk has -DOnavon Darius-one of my fav. players and very underrated, hes another SS and doesnt have the picks, passes defended or sacks dawk has. also has similiar tackles as a FS for a SS. -Dexter Jackson-The first FS on ur list, has similiar tackles, but less Passes defended and sacks, so i guess the passes defended makes up for the picks. -Sammy Knight-SS, MOre tackles, less sacks, more INTs, less Passes Defended. also his first year with a top secondary, his solo tackles were ALOT lower than the rest of his career. tells u something? -Rod Woodson-better in his prime than any1 on the list, but not now -Mike Doss--hey hey hey a SS, what a suprise. Less PAses Defended, less INTs, less Sacks, more tackles thats it. Sean Taylor-i like him, i think hell be the better safety, but not yet. -Ken Hamlin-(FS, i thin)Ditto from Doss -Lance Shulters-a rare appearance from a FS on the list, similiar tackles, less sacks, less passes defended, WAY WAY to inconsistent on INTs, in his career he has 0,6,0,6,3,0 picks. --Darren Sharper-FS, similiar tackles, less sacks, less passes defended, but way more INTs. --John Lynch--SS--on the downside, but also a SS, with similiar tackles(solo), less sacks, less picks, less passes defended. the only thing that he has more of is assists, which really boosted up his tackle numbers. maybe hes the 1 overrated? just a name thatwill suprise all of you this year who came out with roy williams and ed reed, was regarded as the better of the 2 but a heart problem killed his top 15 stock to the middle of the second round. Michael LEwis-SS-first year starter in a depleted secondary, had 65 tackles(according to NFL.com) 86 (solo)in reality, and 3 picks. watch him, hes not elite yet, but hes going to be good and hits like a hammer. so, most of the SS had higher tackle numbers, because like i said in the begining they play the strong side and bla bla, its a fact. Dawkins wasnt to far behind in anything but picks, but he also averaged more passes defended than any other(except rod woodson in his prime). i know they arent as valuable as picks, but still he doesnt have the best hands.
I would value a pass defensed as 1/100th as valuable as an interception....if you are going to say that SS get more tackles because they stay close to the line, then you need to admit that FS should get more picks becuase they stay farther back....as for the propaganda on the eagles site, of course they are gonna prop up his stats, they are trying to sell jerseys...look at any neutral site and you will see my stat breakdown was accurate...I got the stats from CBSsportsline, but feel free to use ESPN.com or another site if you want...you will find the numbers slightly different, but similar....
i know the PD is a lot smaller than the InT, im not sayin its better or equal, but im saying hes near the ball as much as any other player, just knocking it down rather than catching it. Eagles players have never made alot of picks, i dont know why but i think its because we led the league in sacks (before this year) so we got to the QB before he threw it. i dont know thats just a theory. I will go with any teams website oveer ESPN or CBS becasuse they keep their own stats. MAyybe they inflate the numbers, but they probably dont. Most "Officials stat keepers" dont get it, who was it in the super bowl that had like 22 tackles but was listed as 11? I think dan morgan.
tackles are a very important stat it represents each time a player stop another player from scoring, i.e. if a player does not get tackled they scored. So if a player has 20 more tackles it represents 20 more times a player prevented another player from scoring. Even if he let the player go 60 yards before the tackle he gave his team another shot to stop them. PD mean a IMO but nothing compared to picks(you dont get the ball) Dawkins did have decent FF numbers compared to most of the safetys though. that was the best job you have ever done trying to back up your case with evidence. One thing is wilson was referring to eugene wilson. One last thing. SS or FS is still a safety, your claim was he was one of the 5 best safeties in the league. So unless you want to change your statement all the better SS stand.
