<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Jan 4 2007, 02:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Suns aren't missing that player...again, Amare is that person. The majority of his 19-20 points as a starter come from the inside, he only gets 20-25% of his point from his mid-range shot and he is great at drawing fouls. And when they needed him, Diaw showed that last year he could post up and score that way too. Most starting centers can't guard that speed.</div><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Arial">The Suns lead the league in fast break points. Very few of the Suns score in the half court. Amare and Marion both have the best passer in the game on their team, neither one of them have to work hard for a hoop, both score alot off of oops inthe half court, again, not posting up/making a strong move and getting the foul. Also, the Suns the last I checked were last in free throw attempts, so that tells you something too. Diaw worked the high post last year, not the low block. Considering he was the smallest starting center last year at 6'8" 220, why the hell would he be on the low block? </span></span>
You obviously haven't watched Stoudemire play much if you are saying that. He does work hard for the majority of his points and he draws a lot of fouls. He's one of the best inside scorers in the game and this season has taken the role of rebounder so he's rarely at the end of a fast break. Diaw has scored a lot of points inside also, I don't know what you're talking about about him...BTW, the Spurs only average LESS THAN 1 more free throw attempt than the Suns per game. The Suns average would be higher than it is now and maybe even better than the Spurs had Amare started every game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Jan 4 2007, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You obviously haven't watched Stoudemire play much if you are saying that. He does work hard for the majority of his points and he draws a lot of fouls. He's one of the best inside scorers in the game and this season has taken the role of rebounder so he's rarely at the end of a fast break. Diaw has scored a lot of points inside also, I don't know what you're talking about about him...BTW, the Spurs only average LESS THAN 1 more free throw attempt than the Suns per game. The Suns average would be higher than it is now and maybe even better than the Spurs had Amare started every game.</div>You just proved me right. Amare or Marion is usually scoring on the fast break, taking away the points they score on the half court. How many free throws does Amare average a game? Huh? Ok then.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Jan 4 2007, 03:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You obviously haven't watched Stoudemire play much if you are saying that. He does work hard for the majority of his points and he draws a lot of fouls. He's one of the best inside scorers in the game and this season has taken the role of rebounder so he's rarely at the end of a fast break. Diaw has scored a lot of points inside also, I don't know what you're talking about about him...BTW, the Spurs only average LESS THAN 1 more free throw attempt than the Suns per game. The Suns average would be higher than it is now and maybe even better than the Spurs had Amare started every game.</div><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Arial">You just proved me right. Amare or Marion is usually scoring on the fast break, taking away the points they score on the half court. How many free throws does Amare average a game? Huh? Ok then.</span></span>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KWebb5 @ Jan 4 2007, 01:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Arial">I totally agree that you shouldn't ask more than 8-10 points a game from Dampier, but how many of those are when he's getting the ball in the paint and making a nice strong move? Im guessing that most of those points are from offensive put-backs and running the floor. 65% from the floor from a guy that get's what, 27 or 28 minutes a game has to tell you something...he's not earning that percentage...guys are finding him wide open or he's rebounding. The Suns and Mavs are missing a guy they can go to in the half court here and there and get fouled and make free throws.</span></span></div>Obviously Damp didn't get a .150 increase in his % just because he's "wide open." Give me a break. The guy is working hard in the paint. Yes, he is getting looks that are somewhat open sometimes. Yes, sometimes he get putbacks, just like any other center. As for running the floor, few points are from that. He's not a run-and-gun kind of guy.His minutes have nothing to do with "earning" or not earning. Last year he was literally an offensive liability. If you passed him the ball, you had no idea what would happen. Now you can occasionally feed him the ball in the post. Once again, he's not Yao Ming or Bosh or Shaq or anyone like that, but he is more reliable than last year. He has never really played big minutes. And there is no need for him to play big minutes with Diop. Furthermore, he does benefit from playing with a better offensive unit. He is not going to play when Anthony Johnson, Croshere, Buckner, etc., out there. That's when Diop would be out. The fact that you really suggest that someone's play is a certain way based on numbers baffles me. Like I said, you haven't watched the Mavs play.I guess Dirk is not good at getting free throws.
Amare averages about (6.6) half a free throw less than Duncan as a starter in 3 less minutes... I said Amare is the rebounder and he rarely gets scores on fast breaks. I never brought up Marion in this discussion. Amare has been a great inside scorer for us and he's not even at 100% yet, when he was at 100% he was getting to the line 9 times a game and he has had a few games like that. I don't see how I proved you right by saying Amare doesn't get scores on fast breaks because he rebounds and passes to Nash. The inside scoring is the majority of his 19-20 point average so far this year. Watch some games why dontcha?
The Suns don't have team defense but have good peremiter defenders in Marion and Bell. The team is too small to call them "complete". They can shoot the ball and thats going to give em points with Nash giving it out. Diaw and Barbosa are the future for ths Suns they have youth too.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KWebb5 @ Jan 4 2007, 03:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Arial">The Suns lead the league in fast break points. Very few of the Suns score in the half court. Amare and Marion both have the best passer in the game on their team, neither one of them have to work hard for a hoop, both score alot off of oops inthe half court, again, not posting up/making a strong move and getting the foul. Also, the Suns the last I checked were last in free throw attempts, so that tells you something too. Diaw worked the high post last year, not the low block. Considering he was the smallest starting center last year at 6'8" 220, why the hell would he be on the low block? </span></span></div>This whole argument that everyone uses completely bugs me. The "everyone else gets all their points set up by Nash really bugs me." Another argument I see used that bugs me "The Suns lead the league in fast break points, and score very few in the half court." Just because Nash is the best passer in the game does not mean that he is the reason why these two score so much. He helps them score some points, but they help make him look good as a passer. Nash doesn't get them open, they get open on their own by moving around without the ball and finding the open space on the floor. Without them moving around to find this open space on the floor and getting open, Nash has no one to pass to and his assist numbers are no where near where they are.Furthermore, to say he sets up all of their points is completely off. Considering Nash averages 11 assists per game, at the very most that is 33 points he assists on per game. Marion and Stoudemire average 37.1 points combined, so even if those were the only two people he passes the ball to they would still score points on their own. We all know though, that he hits everyone on his team, they don't get all of their points just from Steve Nash's passing. Stoudemire is a very good post scorer, just look at the way he was taking it to Tim Duncan two years ago. He gave Duncan everything he wanted in that playoff series. This season he has shown he can score quite often without having to be set up. If you watched the Nets and Magic games he scored more from working on his own with the ball, than by Steve Nash's passing. The Suns definately have a low post scoring presence.One more thing I would like to add, is that the Suns are also a much better half court team than everyone gives them credit for. They score alot of points in the half court, they don't just run the fast break all game. They have the deadliest pick and roll game in the league, that gives everyone problems in the half court.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pinoy Balla @ Jan 4 2007, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Suns don't have team defense but have good peremiter defenders in Marion and Bell. The team is too small to call them "complete". They can shoot the ball and thats going to give em points with Nash giving it out. Diaw and Barbosa are the future for ths Suns they have youth too.</div>The best thing you can say is that the Suns are too Small? Look around them, they're in the Pacific Division, where their biggest pain in the ass big man is <u>Brad Miller</u>. Don't bring that in here. Also, everyone wants to complain about their lack of defense. Look, they're not the 2004 Pistons, but they play enough defense to give them wins and a more than respectable record. Oh, and check this out.<u>Dallas ppg: 98.75. Opp ppg: 91.90. Difference of: 6.84 ppgPhoneix ppg: 110.32. Opp ppg: 103.45. Difference of: 6.87 ppgSee? it's the same damn thing. They don't play defense (bs)</u>
You obviously did not read what I said when I talked about the Suns defense. Watch their games, when it's close they have a hard time winning.Also, those stats prove nothing but their mentality is to score more then the opposing teams. It's going to be skewed. Teams aren't going to average 105-107 points to show you that the Suns don't play defense.
The Suns do play defense. Last year they were bad at close games but this year I'm pretty sure they have a winning record in games decided by 3 points or less.Edit: Yes, 3-2 in those close games. And I have seen a few games where they won in crunch time using good defense, except they don't fall into the 3 points or less category.
So why can't a high-powered offense be just another form of defense?People always say that: "The best offense is great defense"
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ProStix#6 @ Jan 4 2007, 08:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So why can't a high-powered offense be just another form of defense?People always say that: "The best offense is great defense"</div>That quote is for like debating not for basketball. With the speed that the Suns run their offense (which obviousely works well for them), transition scoring isnt hard for the other team. You asked if the Suns are the most complete team and you can't be the most complete team unless you can do everything that an amazing basketball team needs. No team has ever been capable of doing this so no team will ever be complete. However the Suns are not even close to complete compared to the Mavericks or the Pistons (Although they're not as good they're more whole).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The Suns do play defense.</div>I think you were referring to me with this and I am aware they play defense. But it's inconsistent and you agreed. My comment with the stats was just saying that you can't look at the difference in ppgs just to tell a team can play defense when it can be skewed.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>So why can't a high-powered offense be just another form of defense?</div>Because that's not logical.
The word "complete" was not a substitute for "perfect". "Complete" to me means that though they are not perfect, they have a clear style of play, and the entire team executes in sync with one another. "Complete" means that they play to their strangths, and do a damn good job at it. That's what "Complete" to me means.
Complete doesn't even have to mean perfect. A complete team to me is a team that has all around skills and talent to match down to the coach. Defensively and offensively.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ProStix#6 @ Jan 4 2007, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The word "complete" was not a substitute for "perfect". "Complete" to me means that though they are not perfect, they have a clear style of play, and the entire team executes in sync with one another. "Complete" means that they play to their strangths, and do a damn good job at it. That's what "Complete" to me means.</div>Well now that you have re-phrased it, and say that they play to their strengths and everyone on their team plays a role I completely believe that the Suns are a complete team. They are deep and their starting lineup has a starting line where every single person can do their role and more. They play to their strengths by running fast and scoring in transition. Thanks for clearing this up for me, yeah they're definetely complete.
Yes, that now makes the topic make a little more sense but the definition of complete is wrong.... Oh well, it started debate.
I didn't re-phrase a thing. Look at my very first post about this. It explains what I mean by "complete" pretty well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Justice @ Jan 4 2007, 03:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Obviously Damp didn't get a .150 increase in his % just because he's "wide open." Give me a break. The guy is working hard in the paint. Yes, he is getting looks that are somewhat open sometimes. Yes, sometimes he get putbacks, just like any other center. As for running the floor, few points are from that. He's not a run-and-gun kind of guy.His minutes have nothing to do with "earning" or not earning. Last year he was literally an offensive liability. If you passed him the ball, you had no idea what would happen. Now you can occasionally feed him the ball in the post. Once again, he's not Yao Ming or Bosh or Shaq or anyone like that, but he is more reliable than last year. He has never really played big minutes. And there is no need for him to play big minutes with Diop. Furthermore, he does benefit from playing with a better offensive unit. He is not going to play when Anthony Johnson, Croshere, Buckner, etc., out there. That's when Diop would be out. The fact that you really suggest that someone's play is a certain way based on numbers baffles me. Like I said, you haven't watched the Mavs play.I guess Dirk is not good at getting free throws. </div><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="font-family:Arial">So what your saying is that a NBA veteran (Erick Dampier) got that much better by increasing his shooting percentage? Whats justification for this? He improved his post moves or got better at layups? Are you on crack? 9 points a game from a starter is HORRIBLE. Thats below league average for a starter. If Dampier wasn't as good of a rebounder he might average 5 points a game. His PPG is terrible for a starter. Dampier rely's on other people to get him the ball in a scoring opportunity. As for watching the Mavs, I have NBA TV. I watch the Mavs at least once a week. At least. Look at his career numbers man. And the whole eye rolling thing was pretty gay.</span> </span>
