<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Swish15:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, all of those players you mentioned are better then Bosh. Howard, Camby, Wallace, Redd and Gasol are all having better seasons then Bosh. If you want me to break out the statistics and debate with you then I'll be happy to do so.</div> feel free cause you're 100% wrong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheAnswer2:</div><div class="quote_post">Compared to a player like Kobe....yes sir.</div> What exactly does one-dimensional mean to you? To me it means, being good/great at one thing, and not anything else. LeBron is a great scorer, good rebounder and a great passer. Is that one dimensional? Steve Nash can score, shoot, pass and pretty much anything on offense. He isn't good at all on defense, but that doesn't make him one-dimensional.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">nash is one dimensional. he plays offense but is a defensive liability. he also cant rebound well. Lebron is average on defense, great on offense and great on the boards. Kobe is also 1 dimensional....to him there's kobe's stats and then....nothing else.</div> He's not great on the boards, just average. Kobe isn't one dimensional, we're talking about the broader sense. He can play O and D, Lebron is just O, and Nash is only effective on O too...I'm just using my definition of one- and two- dimensional.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Swish15:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, all of those players you mentioned are better then Bosh. Howard, Camby, Wallace, Redd and Gasol are all having better seasons then Bosh. If you want me to break out the statistics and debate with you then I'll be happy to do so.</div> gasol is worse than bosh in almost every stat column. Redd is averaging only 2.7 more points off 44% from the field compared to Bosh's 51%. Bosh is averaging 9.3 rebounds to Redd's 4.5. Howard is pulling down 3 rebounds more per game but 7 less points, 1 assist less per game and an extra half turnover per game. howard is 10% poorer from the line. Camby is pulling down 3 more rebounds and collecting 2 more blocks but getting 8 less points off worse shooting from the line and feild. Bosh has nearly all of the attention from defense while Camby is an afterthought. Ask yourself if Camby could be doing better than Bosh is if he were a Rap and Bosh was a Nugget. No one on the planet considers Camby a better player than Bosh. At some things he is better, but overall Bosh is the better player. Wallace is getting more 15 less pts per game and a lower fg % while shooting 44% from the line. Bosh is only pulling down 3 less boards and 1 less block per game. Oh and for the record even thought it doenst matter really, Bosh is younger than every player mentioned. Wait till you see what he's doing 4 years from now.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh and for the record even thought it doenst matter really, Bosh is younger than every player mentioned. Wait till you see what he's doing 4 years from now.</div> Actually, Howard is the youngest player, but I get your point. Put Redd or Wallace on the Raptors, and they would not lead the Raps to 19 wins like Bosh has.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">no way on the planet is dwight howards, camby, or ben wallace better than Chris Bosh, and i dont buy Redd or gasol either. i could understand AK47 or Artest...but even they arent clear cut better IMO.</div> Why can't Howard, Camby, or Ben Wallace be considered better than Bosh. All three of them are better rebounders and defenders than Bosh, but not as good scorers. Don't get me wrong, Bosh is a very good player, but how can you say no way on the planet those three are better?
Ok, let's compare each player individually with Chris Bosh. [div=80%]Dwight Howard PPG 15.5 RPG 12.6 APG 1.4 SPG .78 BPG 1.59 FG% .516 MPG 37.4[/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 From looking at these numbers, we can see that Dwight Howard has the edge over Bosh is every statistical category except for three, points per game, assists per game, and minutes per game. You can argue that Bosh is the better offensive player but even this isn't true if you look a bit deeper in the player's offensive stats. On the Raptors, Bosh is the main offensive threat and has shot a team high 796 shot attempts. Dwight on the other hand, has shot way fewer shots this season with only 525 attempts and is only averaging 7 points less then CB4. Dwight isn't the main offensive threat on his team and has taken fewer shot attempts than Steve Francis and Hedo Turkoglu. On top of all that, Dwight is leading the league in rebounds and is a much better defensively. He is also younger then Bosh and is performing on a higher level despite not playing college ball for a year like Bosh did. While I said Bosh has the advantage when it comes to minutes per game, it actually hurts him in this arguement. It shows that Dwight is doing so much more then he is while playing less time. Oh and the team's records can't be used in a debate against Dwight either because as of right now both Bosh and Howard's teams both stand at 19 wins (Raptors: 19-32, Magic 19-30). I'd say Dwight gets the nod in this comparison. Now let's look at Marcus Camby. [div=80%]Marcus Camby PPG 14.8 RPG 12.1 APG 1.5 SPG 1.53 BPG 3.06 FG% .481 MPG 32.9[/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 Statistically, Bosh and Camby look pretty equal, right? Well just like with Howard, if you look a little bit deeper you can see that Camby has the upper edge here. First of all, points per game isn't a fair way to judge Marcus Camby. He has only attempted 403 shots this year and his role on the Denver Nuggets isn't that of a scorer. His job on that team is to rebound and play interior defense and he has done both of those things better then anyone this season. The Nuggets have tons of scoring options in Carmelo Anthony, Andre Miller, Kenyon Martin, Earl Boykins and Voshon Lenard. Yet, Camby still manages to score 14 PPG. To put things in perspective, Earl Boykins has attempted 102 more shots than Camby has this season. Boykins has yet to start a game for the Nuggets. Before he got injured, he was leading the league in rebounds and blocks. He was having an All-Star worthy season and he would most likely have been all-star if it weren't for the millions of people in China who support Yao Ming. And similar to Howard, Marcus has done all of these things playing about 6 less minutes per game than Bosh. Camby is a great player and at this point in time, he is better then Bosh. CB4 has a lot of potential and will probably surpass Camby someday but like I said, for now, Camby is the more talented of the two. Ok, Big Ben Wallace's turn. [div=80%]Ben Wallace PPG 7.6 RPG 12.2 APG 2.1 SPG 1.54 BPG 2.18 FG% .493 MPG 36.2 [/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 Now this may be the closest that you have come to being right so far, but I still think that Wallace is a better player then Chris Bosh. You can talk about Wallace's scoring all you want but just like Camby, he isn't meant to be a scorer on the defensive minded Pistons team. Five players (Rasheed Wallace, Richard Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Tayshaun Prince, and bench player Antonio Mcdyss) have all attempted more shots than Wallace has this season. Also, Wallace has the championship on his side and who knows if the Pistons would have had their success without Wallace holding down the paint. On top of that, Wallace is a better rebounder and defender than Bosh and has better stats in all of those categories while yet again, playing fewer minutes than CB4. To compare Bosh, who has never been to the playoffs, with a proven veteren like Wallace, who has a championship under his belt and is currently leading the Pistons to the league's best record. Now for the little guy in this arguement, Michael Redd. [div=80%]Michael Redd PPG 25.0 RPG 4.5 APG 2.9 SPG 1.13 BPG .00 FG% .440 MPG 39.1 [/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 I'm not sure why you are even comparing Michael Redd to Chris Bosh considering one is a guard and the other is a big man. This is like comparing apples to oranges. But I'll give it a shot anyways. Redd is the better scorer which is expected since he takes more shots and is the main threat on the Bucks. You comparing Bosh's rebounds to Redd's is pathetic considering Redd is a shooting guard and isn't even supposed to be close to Bosh in that aspect of his game. The fact that he is shooting 44% is very good for a guard and big men are supposed to have higher field goal percentages because their shots are generally closer to the basket. Redd is a star and Bosh is an above average player at this point in his career. In a few years he may be better but as for right now, I would rather have Redd on my team. Last but not least, let's compare Bosh to Gasol. [div=80%]Pau Gasol PPG 19.7 RPG 9.2 APG 4.3 SPG .56 BPG 1.98 FG% .485 MPG 39.4 [/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 This is the most even comparison out of them all but I still have to take Gasol over Bosh. Both of these players are the leaders of their respective teams and rather than looking at stats in this matchup (since they are basically even), let's look at how their teams have performed this season. Bosh's Raptors are a dismal 19-32 while Gasol has his team pushing for a playoff spot at 27-23. I wouldn't say that Gasol is much better then Bosh at this point but he isn't worse. I would give the nod to Gasol or comprimise and say that Pau is equal to Bosh this season.
I would take Dwight over Bosh for the future, but Bosh over all of the rest of them. Bosh is having a better season then Dwight right now, but Dwight just turned 20 like 2 months ago and no way did I dream Dwight would be this good this quick. Just remember that this year for Dwight is equivalent to Bosh's rookie year by age. Dwight is younger. Bosh avgs 15.6 shots per game, while Dwight avgs 10.7, which is basically 5 full shots more. Shooting Dwight's percentage he would make 2.5 of the 5 extra shots and would avg 5 more ppg then he does and he would probably get to the line even more if he got Bosh's attempts per game. Dwight is a waaaaay better rebounder, better defensively(not as much as you guys think though, Dwight does give up a lot of big games to PF's). I really like Bosh to be honest with you, but if I were to build my team, I would choose Dwight Howard over him in a heartbeat, but you can't go wrong with Chris Bosh. Hopefully Dwight and Bosh will be playing alongside themselves in many All-Star games to come.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Redd is a star and Bosh is an above average player at this point in his career.</div> Swish, your one of the better posters on JBB, but you got to be freakin kidding me. Bosh is an above average player? Send me some of that Florida chronic. You would rather have Redd on your team than Bosh? Yeah ok, how many hits out of the bong did you take today? I think your the only one in this entire forum that thinks Bosh is an above average player and would rather have Michael Redd on their team rather than CB4. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bosh's Raptors are a dismal 19-32 while Gasol has his team pushing for a playoff spot at 27-23.</div> Uh, no sh*t, maybe because Gasol's team is better?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually, Howard is the youngest player, but I get your point. Put Redd or Wallace on the Raptors, and they would not lead the Raps to 19 wins like Bosh has.</div> OK he is younger than Bosh..by a whole 5 months, i was wrong on that. Wallace on the Raps would get less than 19 wins. Redd on the Raps also less than 19 wins. Neither are as complete of players Redd being purely offensive Wallace purely defensive. Bosh is very good on the offensive end and above average as a defensive player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting 02civic:</div><div class="quote_post">OK he is younger than Bosh..by a whole 5 months, i was wrong on that. Wallace on the Raps would get less than 19 wins. Redd on the Raps also less than 19 wins. Neither are as complete of players Redd being purely offensive Wallace purely defensive. Bosh is very good on the offensive end and above average as a defensive player.</div> Actually he's older by basically 2 full NBA seasons if you look at it by class. Bosh played one year of college and this is his 3rd NBA season, while Dwight had 0 college seasons and this is only his 2nd NBA season. So this season for Dwight would be equivalent to Bosh's rookie year(2nd year out of HS). Bosh was born on March 24, 1984, while Dwight was born December 8th, 1985. So technically it's a year and 8 and a half months. I'm not too sure how you got 5 months out of this though....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Swish15:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, let's compare each player individually with Chris Bosh. [div=80%]Dwight Howard PPG 15.5 RPG 12.6 APG 1.4 SPG .78 BPG 1.59 FG% .516 MPG 37.4[/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 From looking at these numbers, we can see that Dwight Howard has the edge over Bosh is every statistical category except for three, points per game, assists per game, and minutes per game. You can argue that Bosh is the better offensive player but even this isn't true if you look a bit deeper in the player's offensive stats. On the Raptors, Bosh is the main offensive threat and has shot a team high 796 shot attempts. Dwight on the other hand, has shot way fewer shots this season with only 525 attempts and is only averaging 7 points less then CB4. Dwight isn't the main offensive threat on his team and has taken fewer shot attempts than Steve Francis and Hedo Turkoglu. On top of all that, Dwight is leading the league in rebounds and is a much better defensively. He is also younger then Bosh and is performing on a higher level despite not playing college ball for a year like Bosh did. While I said Bosh has the advantage when it comes to minutes per game, it actually hurts him in this arguement. It shows that Dwight is doing so much more then he is while playing less time. Oh and the team's records can't be used in a debate against Dwight either because as of right now both Bosh and Howard's teams both stand at 19 wins (Raptors: 19-32, Magic 19-30). I'd say Dwight gets the nod in this comparison. Now let's look at Marcus Camby. [div=80%]Marcus Camby PPG 14.8 RPG 12.1 APG 1.5 SPG 1.53 BPG 3.06 FG% .481 MPG 32.9[/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 Statistically, Bosh and Camby look pretty equal, right? Well just like with Howard, if you look a little bit deeper you can see that Camby has the upper edge here. First of all, points per game isn't a fair way to judge Marcus Camby. He has only attempted 403 shots this year and his role on the Denver Nuggets isn't that of a scorer. His job on that team is to rebound and play interior defense and he has done both of those things better then anyone this season. The Nuggets have tons of scoring options in Carmelo Anthony, Andre Miller, Kenyon Martin, Earl Boykins and Voshon Lenard. Yet, Camby still manages to score 14 PPG. To put things in perspective, Earl Boykins has attempted 102 more shots than Camby has this season. Boykins has yet to start a game for the Nuggets. Before he got injured, he was leading the league in rebounds and blocks. He was having an All-Star worthy season and he would most likely have been all-star if it weren't for the millions of people in China who support Yao Ming. And similar to Howard, Marcus has done all of these things playing about 6 less minutes per game than Bosh. Camby is a great player and at this point in time, he is better then Bosh. CB4 has a lot of potential and will probably surpass Camby someday but like I said, for now, Camby is the more talented of the two. Ok, Big Ben Wallace's turn. [div=80%]Ben Wallace PPG 7.6 RPG 12.2 APG 2.1 SPG 1.54 BPG 2.18 FG% .493 MPG 36.2 [/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 Now this may be the closest that you have come to being right so far, but I still think that Wallace is a better player then Chris Bosh. You can talk about Wallace's scoring all you want but just like Camby, he isn't meant to be a scorer on the defensive minded Pistons team. Five players (Rasheed Wallace, Richard Hamilton, Chauncey Billups, Tayshaun Prince, and bench player Antonio Mcdyss) have all attempted more shots than Wallace has this season. Also, Wallace has the championship on his side and who knows if the Pistons would have had their success without Wallace holding down the paint. On top of that, Wallace is a better rebounder and defender than Bosh and has better stats in all of those categories while yet again, playing fewer minutes than CB4. To compare Bosh, who has never been to the playoffs, with a proven veteren like Wallace, who has a championship under his belt and is currently leading the Pistons to the league's best record. Now for the little guy in this arguement, Michael Redd. [div=80%]Michael Redd PPG 25.0 RPG 4.5 APG 2.9 SPG 1.13 BPG .00 FG% .440 MPG 39.1 [/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 I'm not sure why you are even comparing Michael Redd to Chris Bosh considering one is a guard and the other is a big man. This is like comparing apples to oranges. But I'll give it a shot anyways. Redd is the better scorer which is expected since he takes more shots and is the main threat on the Bucks. You comparing Bosh's rebounds to Redd's is pathetic considering Redd is a shooting guard and isn't even supposed to be close to Bosh in that aspect of his game. The fact that he is shooting 44% is very good for a guard and big men are supposed to have higher field goal percentages because their shots are generally closer to the basket. Redd is a star and Bosh is an above average player at this point in his career. In a few years he may be better but as for right now, I would rather have Redd on my team. Last but not least, let's compare Bosh to Gasol. [div=80%]Pau Gasol PPG 19.7 RPG 9.2 APG 4.3 SPG .56 BPG 1.98 FG% .485 MPG 39.4 [/div]Chris Bosh PPG 22.7 RPG 9.3 APG 2.5 SPG .63 BPG 1.12 FG% .510 MPG 38.9 This is the most even comparison out of them all but I still have to take Gasol over Bosh. Both of these players are the leaders of their respective teams and rather than looking at stats in this matchup (since they are basically even), let's look at how their teams have performed this season. Bosh's Raptors are a dismal 19-32 while Gasol has his team pushing for a playoff spot at 27-23. I wouldn't say that Gasol is much better then Bosh at this point but he isn't worse. I would give the nod to Gasol or comprimise and say that Pau is equal to Bosh this season.</div> I'm not gunna do a full break down on this becuase i think it's pointess to compare stats when there are so many variables to account for. However i will say that Camby and Wallace have NO offensive game. They can pull down 2-3 rebounds more and do 1-2 more blocks but thats all they can do better than Bosh. I dont buy your "they're not asked to score" line because in my opinion thats both a help and a hinderence to them. Both of them get their points because defenses dont key in on them, and even double off of them regularily. Bosh gets regular double teams with the odd triple team. Could Camby and Wallace continue to pull down their boards and blocks if they were on the Raps, sure probably. But they'd find themselves scoring even fewer points because they dont have the quality players around them to take pressure off. I dont think there's any comparison on "talent" between the 3 players. Redd being a star while Bosh is above average? lmao Gasol's team record is better than Bosh's team record? No way! He must be bette....oh wait...what does that have anything to do with it. The grizz have a decent roster, the Raps have 5 players that arent TOTAL crap and of those 5 none are overally above average.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting playmaker15:</div><div class="quote_post">I hope that list is in no particular order 1. KG 2. Duncan 3. Kobe 4. Lebron 5. T-Mac 6. Iverson 7. Wade 9. Shaq 10. VC 11. Dirk 12. Brand</div> I also hope you are not having that in any particular order, but obviously you are. Switch Brand and VC there and it will look a little more respectable. And just a little. By the way Duncan is better than KG. Most of you are taking only offense into account. What is wrong with you? There are two sides to the game people. Artest is arguably the best defender in the league. He had six steals the other night and when he was on Joe Johnson in the second half he didn't score once. Not once. Artest is a top 15 player at least, whether you want to bring out your stats is up to you. Stats don't lie, but they don't tell everything.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Swish, your one of the better posters on JBB, but you got to be freakin kidding me. Bosh is an above average player? Send me some of that Florida chronic. You would rather have Redd on your team than Bosh? Yeah ok, how many hits out of the bong did you take today? I think your the only one in this entire forum that thinks Bosh is an above average player and would rather have Michael Redd on their team rather than CB4. Uh, no sh*t, maybe because Gasol's team is better?</div> Just because we don't have the same view in this situation doesn't mean you have to make fun of my addiction to artificial imagination. I just think that Redd is the better player and I would rather build my team around him. It's hard to compare the two players since they play entirely different positions so, as shapecity would say, [SLAP]poo on you![/SLAP] By the way, Florida is cocaine central so...yeah. Oh and civic, I'd agree with you on Gasol because I even said in my first post that they are pretty much equal. But everyone else I debated with you, I'm not sticking to my case.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Swish15:</div><div class="quote_post">Just because we don't have the same view in this situation doesn't mean you have to make fun of my addiction to artificial imagination. I just think that Redd is the better player and I would rather build my team around him. It's hard to compare the two players since they play entirely different positions so, as shapecity would say, [SLAP]poo on you![/SLAP] </div> Mind explaining why? I have no idea why anyone would want a SG over a PF, let alone Redd over Bosh.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Bobcats:</div><div class="quote_post">Mind explaining why? I have no idea why anyone would want a SG over a PF, let alone Redd over Bosh.</div> When I see Redd, I see a scorer. If it were a couple of years from now, I would say give me Bosh. But we are talking about who I would want right now, this season. In that case, I'd go with Redd who is one of the top shooters in the league.
Little bit of tempers in this thread, eh guys? I'm still trying to figure out why Bosh and Redd are being compared, you could not find two more different players. I have to agree with Swish in the overall argument, however, in saying that I would take Big Ben, Dwight, Camby and Gasol over Bosh. And that's not a knock on Bosh. He's a supremely talented player who is fast becoming a legit star in this league, but he does not bring things to the table that the other players do, IMO. Big Ben and Camby are defensive stalwarts who anchor their teams in the middle and are among the 10 best defenders in the entire league. Are they the type of offensive threat that Bosh is? No way. However, they are different types of players. They are defensive minded centers whose games focus on rebounding, altering shots, and stopping the other teams' Boshes from scoring big. I think that's more important that scoring; look around the league at how many forwards average 20 ppg. Now look how many average 10+ boards and a steal and a swat each. I think you'll realize that Big Ben and Camby are just as important as Bosh, and though they are different style players, are just as good if not better. I am a guy who values a lockdown defender. I'm not saying that Bosh is a slouch defensively, but these other two are on a completely different level than him. As to Dwight, he's still young, with unlimitted potential, and I see him becoming the same type of defensive stud that Ben and Camby are, with more offense than both of them and not much less than Bosh. Right this very second is he a better player than Bosh? Probably not, but it depends on who you ask. If you're looking for a leading scorer, you take Bosh. If you're looking for a defensive stopper and a glass man, you take Dwight. Gasol is not as different a player from Bosh as the other three, but he brings a different skill set, too. Gasol is a guy who has a better inside/out game than Bosh, but not by a lot; Bosh is a dangerous outside shooter and he's getting better all the time. Gasol is a better help defender and shot blocker than Bosh, yet neither of them are great man defenders, so they pretty much cancel each other out there. The main reason I see Gasol as better is his passing ability, which is superb for a big man. He plays the high post screen and roll game as well as anyone since Chris Webber was in his prime, and he's getting better. The guy averages almost 5 assists for a team that has had a revolving door at PG due to injury. I think that says a hell of a lot about him. I take nothing away from Bosh. Again, he is becoming one of the better players in the leauge, and I fully expect to see his name on the All Star roster for the next decade. However, I would not take him over the 4 other big men being discussed in this thread. He is a helluva player, but I value the defensive skills of Ben and Camby, the all around game of Gasol, and the ridiculous potential (which he's already delivering on) of Dwight more than I do the things that Bosh brings to the table.
I can handle people saying Bosh isn't as good as Gasol. I don't think Dwight is as good as Bosh, though. You argued that Howard does more with less minutes and touches, but I think thats a bit too simplistic. Bosh has more touches and minutes, but he has the added pressure of being the number 1 option. I don't think Dwight, at this point, would be able to perform at Bosh's level if defenses were setting themselves around stopping him. He will eventually, but not this season. As far as Camby, Big Ben, and Redd, I don't think there's any comparison. Redd, obviously, because he's a guard. Camby and Wallace impact the game in a completely different way than Bosh. This is just my personal opinion, but I'd rather choose Bosh simply because I think, unless you've built it like the Pistons, its harder to build a team around a dominant defensive player with a limited offensive game.
Bosh is better than dwight howard because bosh is getting double teamed and still scores with ease but dwight isnt getting doule teamed and only avreges 15ppg and he only has better rpg
Artest is a top 12 player (trying to get things back on topic). This speaks for itself. Link: www.careerbuilder.com/monk-e-mail/?mid=3614616
