August 1st 2012: just like Pearl Harbor and 9/11

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by TradeNurkicNow, Aug 2, 2012.

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  1. chris_in_pdx

    chris_in_pdx OLD MAN

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    So, let's be frank. You have no real-world experience with Socialized medicine, you have no real-world knowledge from either doctors or patients from such a system. You are just swallowing supposed "experts" opinions on such who have obvious agendas, and then claiming them to be gospel. I say with conviction that you are full of shit. Live in Canada, England, Australia, New Zealand, and talk with the people there first-hand about their experiences. You might find that your pig-headed "America is God's Country And Can Do No Wrong" attitude is absolutely fucking baseless and you are full of complete shit. No, none of those systems are perfect, and yes, there's rampant corruption and probably pissed off doctors and patients in every system that thinks their system is screwed. But at the end of the day, someone with a life-threatening illness or situation isn't going to die because they can't afford treatement. If a guy needs his hangnail looked at, he'll go in and have it treated because he can, and won't wait until he develops gangrene and has to go to an emergency room and have his hand or foot amputated and had to declare bankruptcy because he either can't pay the bill or his insurance company drops him.

    You see the negative prospects. I see the positive ones. And in my mind, the positives far outweigh the negatives because I actually give a shit about the common man and don't see him/her as just a commodity/consumer to be exploited.
     
    chris_in_pdx, Aug 3, 2012
    #41
  2. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    I think civil rights is a completely different issue.

    There's no gray area on "all men are created equal", but there's a hell of a gray area on "how much is too much" and what would be "morally right" in terms of taxing someone more or less.

    Just because someone makes what you would consider "too much money" they are morally obligated to give back more? Who decides what is morally right and wrong?

    Morals are in the eye of the beholder, but the framers of the constitution and the bill of rights felt that there were certain inalienable rights that every man, woman, and child were entitled to. I wouldn't put taxes in that category.

    I think a lot of people could give back more before they start throwing stones at people they perceive to have too much money. Why don't more people volunteer or donate money/old clothes/etc?
     
    Natebishop3, Aug 3, 2012
    #42
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    My parents are doctors.

    Next assumption on your part?
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 3, 2012
    #43
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Ask these 130,000 people in Great Britain? How do you ask them? Do tell.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-NHS-kills-130-000-elderly-patients-year.html
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 3, 2012
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  5. ppilot

    ppilot Member

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    ppilot, Aug 3, 2012
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  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Professor Pullicino, a consultant neurologist for East Kent Hospitals and Professor of Clinical Neurosciences at the University of Kent, was speaking to the Royal Society of Medicine in London.

    He said: ‘The lack of evidence for initiating the Liverpool Care Pathway makes it an assisted death pathway rather than a care pathway.

    ‘Very likely many elderly patients who could live substantially longer are being killed by the LCP.

    ‘Patients are frequently put on the pathway without a proper analysis of their condition.
    ‘Predicting death in a time frame of three to four days, or even at any other specific time, is not possible scientifically.

    ...

    Medical criticisms of the Liverpool Care Pathway were voiced nearly three years ago.

    Experts including Peter Millard, emeritus professor of geriatrics at the University of London, and Dr Peter Hargreaves, palliative care consultant at St Luke’s cancer centre in Guildford, Surrey, warned of ‘backdoor euthanasia’ and the risk that economic factors were being brought into the treatment of vulnerable patients.
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 3, 2012
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  7. chris_in_pdx

    chris_in_pdx OLD MAN

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    In a country with socialized medicine? No? Then STFU. Next!
     
    chris_in_pdx, Aug 3, 2012
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  8. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    What does in a country with socialized medicine have to do with anything? Socialized Medicine was first promised by Harry S Truman, so the discussion has been going on for quite a few decades.

    My parents actually favored socializing medicine at one point, because they were spending 33% of their time on pro-bono cases and many of their other patients were covered by govt. programs; collecting from the govt. was a huge chore and took a big staff of expensive people doing useless work.

    But you see, them choosing to do pro-bono 33% of the time and the assholes you voted for demanding it of them is what would make them slaves. And yeah, it will be demanded of them if they are required to see 2x the patients to make the same money.
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 3, 2012
    #48
  9. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    Nothing more need be said really.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 3, 2012
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  10. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    Better to throw them in a mass grave then. eh?

    You're one of a kind, Denny Crane.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 3, 2012
    #50
  11. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    Correct. Forunately hangnails are actually a pretty rare malady, and only the very rich can afford to take the time off work to be pampered by a medical staff for such a benign annoyance. Only the very rich would not be embarassed by being such a sissy in the first place. So your fears are unfounded about the future quality of hangnail treatment.

    Unfortunately your theory does absolutely apply for more serious things such as cancer and heart attacks, severed limbs and AIDS, gunshot wounds and strokes...But maybe if very rich sissies stop wasting doctor's time on pampering their hangnails and stuffing their wive's tits with silicone, there will be enough doctors to go around.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 3, 2012
    #51
  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    No. It's better to make the medicine cheaper so it's affordable to all. Like I said, 30% of my parents' work was pro bono, and I think that's typical of most doctors. 30% covers those who can't afford to pay, hence the pro bono part. Get it?
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 3, 2012
    #52
  13. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    Non-existent scenario.

    Doctor's fees are but a tiny slice of the pie.

    But let's say they charge 30% less for all their services and don't do any pro-bono. Suddenly more poor people can afford healthcare. And they don't feel like leeches because they are really paying their way. Your parents walk away just as rich and everybody is happy.

    The only ones griping are the selfish bastards who didn't previously do 30% pro bono work. Which is pretty much most doctors.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 3, 2012
    #53
  14. jlprk

    jlprk The ESPN mod is insane.

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    It won't be free. The usual insurance rules apply to Obamacare--$30 co-pay, $3000 annual deductible, 80% coverage after that, etc.

    There will be the same incentives against overuse as now.
     
    jlprk, Aug 3, 2012
    #54
  15. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    But there's not. And there's no evidence that there will be.

    The answer is ... NPs to replace doctors?

    It's bringing down the mountaintops to raise the valleys, and it's not what we should be doing IMO.

    Ed O.
     
    Ed O, Aug 3, 2012
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  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Charging 30% less won't make a poor person choose medicine over food.

    Pro bono means the doctor charges $0 for his services, his staff's services, lab work, and even surgery.

    If doctors are doing less pro bono work today than in 1980, it's because the govt. has mandated they perform pro bono work. Turned them into slaves of the government.
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 4, 2012
    #56
  17. Haakzilla

    Haakzilla Well-Known Member

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    ...so, is this another false flag attack like the subject line -or- just another guise for certain big business companies to make even more of a fortune on healthcare?! :dunno:
     
    Haakzilla, Aug 4, 2012
    #57
  18. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    You're just spouting bs again.

    I've been through the healthcare conglomerate ringer. Lab tests are all outsourced and billed separately. No doctor in America pays the bill for his patient's lab tests. Operating room costs, nurses, meds, x-rays and cat-scans and MRI's are all billed to separate entities. Again, no doctor in America pays those costs for his patients.

    I'm seriously doubting your parents are even in the medical field since you seem to be so clueless as to the reality of healthcare in America. But maybe they really are doctors and they're just lying to you.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 4, 2012
    #58
  19. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    You're right, so maybe we need price controls on ALL necessities. Food, shelter, water, healthcare, education...

    Wouldn't it be much simpler if 1% of our country weren't heartless greedy bastards?
     
    MARIS61, Aug 4, 2012
    #59
  20. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Nonsense. They do the labs at the last 5 doctors offices I've been to.

    And my father was a nephrologist. Go look up what he did.
     
    Denny Crane, Aug 4, 2012
    #60
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