<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jun 13 2007, 05:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes, he is underrated when people think that he cant be better than Shaq...cause he certainly can.But im not saying Shaq wasnt dominant, cause he was. I agree pretty much with SunnyDs list, its either Shaq or Duncan. But in my opinion, Duncan has done just as much and if not more IMO as far as accomplishments. Like I said, Duncan is the best player as far as accomplishments, which I believe he has put himself above Shaq.</div>As I said before, they are extremely close in accomplishments, and after that it comes down to their skill, talent and dominance (which, IMO, is much more important than accomplishments). From '98-'03, Shaq was on another level than any other big man in the league. During the 3 peat years he was playing at a level we had not seen from a big man since Wilt/Russell. I certainly respect your opinion, but I strongly disagree.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mobruler @ Jun 13 2007, 03:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Punctuation? Look at the structure of that clusterfuck you just typed. I understand Kobe most likely won't match Jordan's 6, but at the same time my opinion is Kobe's raw game is as good if not better than Jordan's was. I think if you replace Jordan with Kobe, Bulls still win 6.</div>No one else picked up on this statement? I'm not even gonna argue anymore. I've argued enough with retarded Kobe fans.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jun 13 2007, 09:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No one else picked up on this statement? I'm not even gonna argue anymore. I've argued enough with retarded Kobe fans.</div>Thank you for your great insight and rebuttal Mr. 39 posts.
lol, I luv it when that's all they can say. Who cares how many posts a person has been, or how long they have been on the forums. Do you seriously believe that he would win all SIX titles? Maybe a few, but come on now, 6? I luv Kobe, closest thing to MJ we have in this league, but that is too much...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mobruler @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thank you for your great insight and rebuttal Mr. 39 posts.</div>Hahaha...post count is so overrated...nobody uses post count anymore because more than half are either idiotic posts or forum game posts...be mature
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (l?ckdown @ Jun 14 2007, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>lol, I luv it when that's all they can say. Who cares how many posts a person has been, or how long they have been on the forums. Do you seriously believe that he would win all SIX titles? Maybe a few, but come on now, 6? I luv Kobe, closest thing to MJ we have in this league, but that is too much...</div>When all they give me is this to respond to, what else am I supposed to say?<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>No one else picked up on this statement? I'm not even gonna argue anymore. I've argued enough with retarded Kobe fans.</div>And yes I seriously believe he would have won 6.
Shaq in the early 2000s was a much best player then Duncan, not only was he just as good defensively if not better but he could score 30 a game easily, while on a given night could put up 20 boards. Of course he had off-games but in the playoffs you could expect Shaq to score around 30 and get close to 15-20 boards. He was just pure dominant. Duncan has been good but shaq dominated against strong teams his whole prime, while putting up great stats also.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jun 13 2007, 04:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Tim Duncan on accomplishment standpoint and Kobe Bryant on talent.People who say Shaq, Shaq has gone to the NBA Finals 6 times, and only won 4...and the 4th he wasnt a major factor. Tim Duncan has one it everytime he has gone, and didnt/dont have the Hardaways, Bryants, or Wades.I was going to make a topic about it, but I thought it was maybe too obvious...Tim Duncan>Shaq</div>That Magic team that lost, you can't even put the blame onto Shaq for that series. He played as well as he could possibly play, and took it right at Hakeem as much Hakeem took it back at him. The rest of the team is what let Shaq down, as they was just not experienced enough to beat the Rockets, and Hardaway was completely outplayed by Clyde Drexler then. Really that team was only an elite team because of Shaq, and Hardaway only looked like a star because of Shaq. He really wasn't as good as people made him out to be, and if you watched the year after Shaq left you would have realized that Shaq opened up everything for Hardaway. So you definately can't blame that one championship loss on Shaq.As for the question, I believe you can call it a tie between Duncan and Shaq as it is really hard to pick between the two. Shaq was much more dominant in a shorter period of time, winning 3 titles and being as dominant as anyone else can be. However Duncan has done it continuously now since Jordan has retired, whereas we have seen Shaq fall off and not be at the same level for the past two seasons. Those are due to injury and old age, but the fact remains that Duncan has had a longer time of being able to play at his high level, whereas Shaq was more dominant in a shorter amount of time. It's really just hard for me to pick between the two.
Not everything is about who has more jewlery. The goal is to win championships but in the end its a team structure and team players that make titles. When we say best player it has nothing to do with titles, if I were to say Best team that may be different. Other then shaq, I would say Lebron James is the best player since MJ retired along with Kobe who both talent-wise are much better then Duncan currently(even in his prime they'd give him a run for his money in a talent comparison)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticBalla32 @ Jun 13 2007, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Without a doubt in my mind, Tim Duncan. Great post player, great defender, fundamental play, great leader, great teammate, makes everybody better, 4 titles (yes, I'm counting 2007 already), 2 MVP's, etc. He's done it all.</div> Shaq's a great post player, great defender, good leader, great teammate, makes others better, and has 4 titles. I guess an arguement would be that Shaq had a lot of help. But to me, outside of Kobe and Wade, Shaq really didnt have much. The Miami Heat last year werent really stacked. Neithier were the Lakers all too much.Shaq deserves just as much recognition.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not everything is about who has more jewlery. The goal is to win championships but in the end its a team structure and team players that make titles. When we say best player it has nothing to do with titles, if I were to say Best team that may be different. Other then shaq, I would say Lebron James is the best player since MJ retired along with Kobe who both talent-wise are much better then Duncan currently(even in his prime they'd give him a run for his money in a talent comparison)</div>Of course guards and wing players are going to be more all around talented than big men, because out on the perimeter they can show case their talent alot more, as well as usually being able to do more because of body size and athleticism. I wouldn't put Kobe ahead of Duncan for best players since Michael Jordan played. I go on the fact that Duncan dominates his position, just the same as Kobe or Lebron dominate their positions. He is a great low post defensive player, probably the best low post defensive player in the league. He is a great low post scorer, a great rebounder, a great passer, is easily among the smartest players in the league, has great leadership. You can say that it's a team structure and team that wins titles, but Duncan has been the driving force behind 4 titles. Without him that team would not be near what it is defensively, or close to having the versatility it does offensively. I really don't see that San Antonio team being any higher than an 8th seed without Duncan on the team. I think the best player since Jordan died has to be either Shaq or Duncan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 15 2007, 08:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Of course guards and wing players are going to be more all around talented than big men, because out on the perimeter they can show case their talent alot more, as well as usually being able to do more because of body size and athleticism. I wouldn't put Kobe ahead of Duncan for best players since Michael Jordan played. I go on the fact that Duncan dominates his position, just the same as Kobe or Lebron dominate their positions. He is a great low post defensive player, probably the best low post defensive player in the league. He is a great low post scorer, a great rebounder, a great passer, is easily among the smartest players in the league, has great leadership. You can say that it's a team structure and team that wins titles, but Duncan has been the driving force behind 4 titles. Without him that team would not be near what it is defensively, or close to having the versatility it does offensively. I really don't see that San Antonio team being any higher than an 8th seed without Duncan on the team. I think the best player since Jordan died has to be either Shaq or Duncan.</div>Thats not always true. Players like Dwight Howard,Hakeem Olajuwon,and shaq in his prime were freak athletes and all were big men. I agree Duncan is the driving force of the Spurs titles but overall I just think hes a overrated player. Of course hes one of the best at his position ever but I dont think he stands up to players like MJ,Magic,Hakeem,Shaq,etc. Of course he has alot of rings and was a major factor in all of them but rings alone dont make him the greatest PF ever or the spurs a dynasty. Defensively I dont even think he is as good as shaq or Drob were.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 07:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thats not always true. Players like Dwight Howard,Hakeem Olajuwon,and shaq in his prime were freak athletes and all were big men. I agree Duncan is the driving force of the Spurs titles but overall I just think hes a overrated player. Of course hes one of the best at his position ever but I dont think he stands up to players like MJ,Magic,Hakeem,Shaq,etc. Of course he has alot of rings and was a major factor in all of them but rings alone dont make him the greatest PF ever or the spurs a dynasty. Defensively I dont even think he is as good as shaq or Drob were.</div>That's why I said usually are more athletic because of size. I don't see how you can say that he is overrated, he is easily among the best players in the leagues history in my opinion, and as valuable to his team as Jordan, Magic, Hakeem or any of them were to their teams. For his position he dominated as well as any of them have dominated their position also. Defensively he is easily as great as either of the two are. He was a better man to man defensive player than either of the two, while being able to control the paint and block shots as either of the two. He is smarter defensively, a better rotator and better man to man than either. There is a reason why every year he has been in the league, the Spurs have been the top defensive team in the league.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mobruler @ Jun 14 2007, 12:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Thank you for your great insight and rebuttal Mr. 39 posts.</div>You're welcome. Read my previous posts in any thread. There are some retarded Kobe homers here. You're one of the worst and most annoying.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That's why I said usually are more athletic because of size. I don't see how you can say that he is overrated, he is easily among the best players in the leagues history in my opinion, and as valuable to his team as Jordan, Magic, Hakeem or any of them were to their teams. For his position he dominated as well as any of them have dominated their position also. Defensively he is easily as great as either of the two are. He was a better man to man defensive player than either of the two, while being able to control the paint and block shots as either of the two. He is smarter defensively, a better rotator and better man to man than either. There is a reason why every year he has been in the league, the Spurs have been the top defensive team in the league.</div>I agree he is one of the greatest PF ever, but he doesn't stand up to Jordan,Magic,or Hakeem. Fundamentally he may have just as much skills, but in terms of actually talent no. Yes hes won four titles now but agaist inferior competition to any of those 3. The Spurs are just a well-run organization, he fits as a great piece in a great team there but looking at individual aspects he doesn't have the explosiveness that they had. Duncan has done a good job leading his team to the finals and beating weak teams but in another era I doubt he would have made even one finals appearance in his entire career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not everything is about who has more jewlery. The goal is to win championships but in the end its a team structure and team players that make titles. When we say best player it has nothing to do with titles, if I were to say Best team that may be different. Other then shaq, I would say Lebron James is the best player since MJ retired along with Kobe who both talent-wise are much better then Duncan currently(even in his prime they'd give him a run for his money in a talent comparison)</div>LeBron?!? If the playoffs proved anything, it showed that LeBron still has a lot of work just to be the best player in the league right now. Hell, I don't even consider him top 3.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I agree he is one of the greatest PF ever, but he doesn't stand up to Jordan,Magic,or Hakeem. Fundamentally he may have just as much skills, but in terms of actually talent no. Yes hes won four titles now but agaist inferior competition to any of those 3. The Spurs are just a well-run organization, he fits as a great piece in a great team there but looking at individual aspects he doesn't have the explosiveness that they had. Duncan has done a good job leading his team to the finals and beating weak teams but in another era I doubt he would have made even one finals appearance in his entire career.</div>Yes, he did have inferior competition, but the one thing he did do that was impressive was knock off the 3 peat Lakers without any real 2nd option, and also defeated the champion Pistons, who were playing team defense as well as it has been played in a long time.Skill-wise, Duncan is one of the best low post scorers of all time, a fantastic rebounder, and one of the best interior defenders in the league (BTW, no way in hell was Shaq ever a better defender than Duncan, and I am a huge Shaq supporter). Those things along with leading a team to 4 rings is enough to put him up there with the best all time. How high you would put him is to be debated, but he is easily a top 20 player all time IMO and you can definately make an arguement for him being the best player since MJ retired (although I feel Shaq has that honor).
He plays defense and has the ability to block and alter shots like anyone else that has ever played, he is as good of a passer as anyone that has played in the low post, Duncan he can score in the low post. He has as much basketball talent, as anyone else that can play in the post. He isn't going to be able to do the behind the back passing that Magic did, or the type of scoring that Jordan did out on the wings, but those are all relative to your position in basketball. For his position he as talented as any of those players you just mentioned, and does the basketball things that his position needed. Considering his team made the finals and won a title the year after Jordan left, with Duncan I do think he could have made the finals in another era and played as well in another era. That season Duncan did face alot of the same players and teams that Jordan had to face throughout his years of going to the finals, and did a very good job as just a rookie.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>LeBron?!? If the playoffs proved anything, it showed that LeBron still has a lot of work just to be the best player in the league right now. Hell, I don't even consider him top 3.Yes, he did have inferior competition, but the one thing he did do that was impressive was knock off the 3 peat Lakers without any real 2nd option, and also defeated the champion Pistons, who were playing team defense as well as it has been played in a long time.Skill-wise, Duncan is one of the best low post scorers of all time, a fantastic rebounder, and one of the best interior defenders in the league (BTW, no way in hell was Shaq ever a better defender than Duncan, and I am a huge Shaq supporter). Those things along with leading a team to 4 rings is enough to put him up there with the best all time. How high you would put him is to be debated, but he is easily a top 20 player all time IMO and you can definately make an arguement for him being the best player since MJ retired (although I feel Shaq has that honor).</div>Considering Shaq went toe to toe with patrick ewing,Karl malone,charles barkley,Hakeem Olajuwon,David Robinson,Dennis Rodman,Charles Oakley,Vlade Divac,etc. and still managed several alldefensive-team selections I give him the defensive edge. Duncan may be a smarter defender then Shaq, but Shaq in his prime could out-muscle even the best big men to ever play the game. While Duncans only real competition hes faced toe to toe has been Kevin Garnett or Jermaine O'neal. Hardly in the same ranks. I agree Duncan is top 20 alltime easily though.and yes Lebron right now is a much better player then Duncan is right now. Lebron still has much more to improve on, and is not half the defender duncan is but in the finals(even with his poor performance) he outplayed Duncan in every way other then defensively which I just pointed out. If it werent for the fact that the cavaliers have one of the worst pg situations in the NBA they might still be playing the Spurs.
