<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheAnswer2:</div><div class="quote_post">Edit: Oh yea, who's SAR?</div> Shareef abdur rahim
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson and T-Mac are borderline superstars? Weren't they both lead their teams to the playoffs a few years back? T-Mac left Orlando because they had nobody else except him who could play. Do you think if he had Grant, and DHoward they wouldn't have made it to the playoffs..? psh.</div> A superstar is somebody who has done it all. Kobe has done it all 3 times over. T-Mac and Allen haven't but I believe they could if they had the right players. Sure T-Mac has reached the playoffs, but how far has he gone into the playoffs. The same goes for Allen, apart from the one time he got to the finals, how deep has he gone? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yao in a few years. He might be a slow developer, but when he gets used to (getting dunked on) I mean the pro game and he develops his midrange shot watch out.</div> Do you honestly think that getting dunked on means you are a bad player? I would rather Yao get dunked on and restrict the other C to scoring few points then him letting the other C score 20 points but not allowing him to dunk over himself. Yao is too soft right now but I don't see how you can use "getting dunked on" as an excuse. Sure, he is 7-5 and shouldn't be "dunked on," but poor example. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson doesn't just lead the Sixers. He carries them. He's a tough player to build a franchise around because he demands players that don't just stand around while he penetrates and does his thing. Along with LBrown he led his team to the finals in 2001, when, I believe, he reached his prime.</div> Sure he's carried them, but where to? The finals once and loads of other poor playoff performances. You are telling me a superstar is somebody that gets to the finals in their prime? No, that is a star, not a superstar. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bryant (hasn't matured fully as a player, MJ at 26 knew what it took to win...trust in his teammates)</div> How can you say this? He's got three rings. As the joint leader of a team(Shaq was going nowhere before Kobe started scoring 20+PPG and getting more MPG), and as a leader alot of the time when Shaq was off injured. How can you say that a player with an injured shoulder that played with the shoulder gaurd on that owned his opponents hasn't matured?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">A superstar is somebody who has done it all. Kobe has done it all 3 times over. T-Mac and Allen haven't but I believe they could if they had the right players. Sure T-Mac has reached the playoffs, but how far has he gone into the playoffs. The same goes for Allen, apart from the one time he got to the finals, how deep has he gone? Sure he's carried them, but where to? The finals once and loads of other poor playoff performances. You are telling me a superstar is somebody that gets to the finals in their prime? No, that is a star, not a superstar. </div> Woah there. Iverson carried his team to the 2001 Finals with a bunch of mediocre players. Yet, you put him as "borderline superstar" while you categorize Kevin Garnett as a superstar. If you may remember, when Garnett reached the finals, he had a couple all star caliber players in Sczerbiak, Sprewell, and Cassell. And who did Iverson have? Lets see, an aging Mutumbo, Eric Snow (not an offensive weapon), and Aaron Mckie. Really, apart from the one time Garnett reached the finals, how far has he gone? By the way, I am by no means saying Iverson is as good a player as Garnett, just saying that its unfair to categorize Iverson as borderline superstar.
Hey no love for J-Kidd. Im 100% sure he is the best point guard in the East. Argueably the best point guard in the NBA. I dont really have an opinion on which conference is better. They seem pretty equal as of now. Im sure eventually the East will be better becuase of all the Rising Stars.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">A superstar is somebody who has done it all. Kobe has done it all 3 times over. T-Mac and Allen haven't but I believe they could if they had the right players. </div> Yeah but not by himself. I mean that is one of the greatest duos in the 90's behind MJ and Pippen. All the other guys you are catergorizing have had no one on there team... Kobe had HOF Shaq the MDE. When you are saying that AI is a borderline superstar and that Kobe has done it all think again.... If you were to put AI with Shaq they would have done the same thing and I am sure that Shaq would still be with AI because I think that AI would recognize that he NEEDS SHAQ to win. Unlike, Kobe who wanted to be the ultimate superstar.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with more stars: West West totally out gains the East on superstar players. There are at least six players in the Western conference that can't touch more than one or two players mabey three on the East. Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Steve Nash, Tracy McGrady, and Dirk Nowitzki are players in the West that are complete superstar players in the NBA. On the other side, the East, you can name Shaquille O'Neal, and mabey Lebron James and Allen Iverson, but the West CLEARLY wins in all around star power. This is a side note: The Western conference players must be doing SOMETHING right, the West have won 6 out of the last 7 championships. </div> I know Nash won MVP, but if him and Dirk are considered complete superstars, then on the East we'd have to add Dwyane Wade and Arenas to the mix also. Then we can't forget Kidd and Vince. <u>Superstars</u> The only true superstars right now in each conference [Wade and Lebron only have 2 years under them] <font color="navy">East:</font> Shaquille O'neal, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd <font color="navy">West:</font> Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnettt, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady <u>Top players:</u> <font color="Navy">East:</font> Wade, Lebron, Vince, Arenas, Pierce, JO, Ben, Marbury <font color="Navy">West:</font> Amare, Dirk, Nash, Allen, Brand, Baron, Marion <u>All-Stars/Borderline All-Stars:</u> <font color="Navy">East:</font> Artest, Jefferson, Webber, Jamison, Hughes, Redd, Francis, Rip, Hill, Billups, Rasheed, Ilguaskas, Bosh, Emeka, Waker, Magloire <font color="Navy">West:</font> Yao, Ginobili, Kirilenko, Maggette, Peja, Bibby, Carmelo, Randolph, Boozer, Gasol, Kirilenko, J-Rich, Rashard, Odom, Joe Johnson, B.Miller <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with more clutch performers: West The East has their share of cluth players, but not on the level of the West. The East have players like Paul Pierce and Allen Iverson, and a couple of retirement bound clutch performers in Reggie Miller and Allan Houston, but that doesn't even make a dent at the solid core of clutch players the West has... Robert Horry, Kobe Bryant, Derek Fisher, Tim Duncan, Tracy McGrady, Dirk Nowitzki, and Kevin Garnett. There are more solid clutch players in the NBA, but not this clutch. Clutchness is a very important attribute, just ask Kobe Bryant, Robert Horry, and Reggie Miller. Where would they be without it</div> First of all, since when has Iverson been clutch? Secondly, the East is right there with the West in clutch ability. They had 4 of the best clutch performers last season, Gordon, Hughes, Arenas and Wade The East has: Pierce, Carter, Redd, Arenas, Gordon, Wade, [had]Reggie, Billups, Rip Also with the West list, Duncan isn't that clutch, he's flopped on FT's many times, and while he can hit some big shots, I wouldn't call him "clutch". KG is good down the stretch, but not a clutch scorer. The West has: Allen, Ginobili, Kobe, Tmac, Bibby, Dirk, Nash, Horry, Cassell <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Conference with better marketability: West Teams such as Los Angeles, Denver, San Antonio, Houston, and Dallas are very important. The Texas teams, Houston (Yao Ming's jersey sells all around the world), Dallas, and San Antonio are all solid teams, and have solid players, which makes the league more green paper. The Media and market want Lebron James out of Cleveland and into a big City such as, New York, Chicago, or Los Angeles so he will have better marketability. Cleveland doesn't have the fans, money, or the wins to be a big organization such as NY, LA, or CHI. Kobe Bryant's marketability may have slipped a bit due to his rape alligations, but he and Yao bring the West atop the East for better sales and marketablilty. </div> I don't know, but the East has Lebron, Shaq, Iverson, and Vince..... Bright stars for the future <font color="Navy">East:</font> Lebron, Wade, Arenas, Bosh, Howard, Okafor, Gordon <font color="Blue">Potential:</font> Iguodala, Deng, Josh Smith, Bogut, Marvin Williams, Green <font color="Navy">West:</font> Amare, Carmelo, Kirilenko, J-Rich, Yao <font color="Blue">Potential:</font> Livingston, Telfiar, JR Smith, Chris Paul <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's also proven he can choke in these situations. I hear he's got 4 winners and 3 misses. A clutch performer would have had a rate of 6-1 instead of 4-3.</div> Just to let you know, throught the years Kobe has been more of a clutch shot taker than maker. People always remember the last big shot he made, but no one remembers any of the times he takes shots that dig his team into a bigger hole. Their's hardly any clutch players that make 6 of 7 game winners on average, even Reggie doesn't do that. The last 3 seasons, Kobe's highest clutch efficiency year was 03-04 where he shot a FG% of .396, an eFG% of .445, and drew fouls 17.3% of the time. The other Top clutch performers this season: Wade: 47.3% FG, 47.8% eFG, 17.0% foul draw Arenas: 43.5% FG, 46.7% eFG, 22.7% foul draw Hughes: 48.3% FG, 52.6% eFG, 24.7% foul draw Gordon: 47.6% FG, 57.7% eFG, 7.7% foul draw R.Allen: 39.1% FG, 46.4% eFG, 12.7% foul draw Redd: 45.8% FG, 49.4% eFG, 12.6% foul draw Kobe [04-05 season]: 32.4% FG, 35.2% eFG, 14.3% foul draw 04-05, we can't even consider him up there for the year with those numbers, and his efficiency in the other years still didn't match that of some of the other guys this year. Their's some players who won't get as much defensive attention, so we understand that, but Wade, Arenas, Ray Allen, and Redd are guys who would all get a lot of defensive attention, and we also compared to the years where Kobe had Shaq, and even Payton and Malone. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Woah there. Iverson carried his team to the 2001 Finals with a bunch of mediocre players. Yet, you put him as "borderline superstar" while you categorize Kevin Garnett as a superstar. If you may remember, when Garnett reached the finals, he had a couple all star caliber players in Sczerbiak, Sprewell, and Cassell. And who did Iverson have? Lets see, an aging Mutumbo, Eric Snow (not an offensive weapon), and Aaron Mckie. Really, apart from the one time Garnett reached the finals, how far has he gone?</div> What Iverson did was great, but Mutombo was still an All-Star caliber center then, and they had the 6th man of the year on their team, and an All-Defensive pure PG. They were a good team in terms of build, kinda like a Pistons team, great players to compliment each other, especially on defense. Going to the Finals in the West the past few years, except maybe this year, has been harder than going from the East. Iverson played Vince's Raptors, and the Milwaukee three to get to the finals. KG played Denver, Sacramento, and lost the the Lakers on his road, and Cassell got injured vs the Lakers didn't he? I do agree Iverson is a superstar though...
^....ummmm considering the Nuggets had no playoff experience last year, and Raptors in 2001 was Carter's prime, Bucks had Allen,Cassell,GRob....anyways I think we're getting off topic. This is bottomline, the West has more stars now, but East has more stars for the future
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">A superstar is somebody who has done it all. Kobe has done it all 3 times over. T-Mac and Allen haven't but I believe they could if they had the right players. Sure T-Mac has reached the playoffs, but how far has he gone into the playoffs. The same goes for Allen, apart from the one time he got to the finals, how deep has he gone? Do you honestly think that getting dunked on means you are a bad player? I would rather Yao get dunked on and restrict the other C to scoring few points then him letting the other C score 20 points but not allowing him to dunk over himself. Yao is too soft right now but I don't see how you can use "getting dunked on" as an excuse. Sure, he is 7-5 and shouldn't be "dunked on," but poor example. Sure he's carried them, but where to? The finals once and loads of other poor playoff performances. You are telling me a superstar is somebody that gets to the finals in their prime? No, that is a star, not a superstar. How can you say this? He's got three rings. As the joint leader of a team(Shaq was going nowhere before Kobe started scoring 20+PPG and getting more MPG), and as a leader alot of the time when Shaq was off injured. How can you say that a player with an injured shoulder that played with the shoulder gaurd on that owned his opponents hasn't matured?</div> First, relax about the dunked on comment. I was referring to Yao's period of time where he had to adjust to the NBA ie: getting crossed up, dunked on, bullied, etc..And oh yea, what C's besides Shaq/Duncan are going to go for 25 points against Yao? There aren't any more dominant C's in the league.. Next, don't just state that a superstar is someone who has done it all. That's your opinion. So let's see, Nazr Mohammad is a superstar now that he has the ring? I believe a superstar is a franchise player, whether offensive (Iverson, McGrady) or both offensive/defensive (Garnett). You're saying that arguably Ginobili is a superstar. Now, I don't doubt the man's talents. He has excellent speed, quickness, hangtime, and arm extension, but he doesn't have the ability to lead a team for 82 games + playoffs. Shaq was going nowhere without Kobe? Shaq had been on the Lakers for 2 years, before Kobe started to start games and develop. So you're saying Shaq, who by the way was still developing his game and hadn't reached his prime yet, was supposed to win a championship with no star powered help? Sort of the same situation you put Iverson/McGrady in. Now we'll bring it back to Yao, he can't be considered a superstar if he doesn't 'do it all' with one of the top three guards in the league. Kidd, McGrady, Iverson, Garnett, Nowitzki, Carter, Allen, and Pierce are not superstars (They are all-stars, have made First Team through Third, defensive teams, etc), all because they have won championships. Show me a team that has won a championship with one superstar and all role players..
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And who did Iverson have? Lets see, an aging Mutumbo, Eric Snow (not an offensive weapon), and Aaron Mckie. Really, apart from the one time Garnett reached the finals, how far has he gone?</div> Mutumbo was defensive player of the year! How can you say he was aging? He was an All Star, averaged nearly 14 rebounds and 3 blocks! Eric Snow averaged 8 assists and nearly 10 points. Don't even try to say that Allen didn't have a supporting cast, because he did. Not to mention Larry Brown! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you were to put AI with Shaq they would have done the same thing and I am sure that Shaq would still be with AI because I think that AI would recognize that he NEEDS SHAQ to win. Unlike, Kobe who wanted to be the ultimate superstar.</div> Would AI have carried the Lakers when Shaq was injured? Would AI have saved the Lakers ass over and over again with amazing clutch play? I don't think so. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah but not by himself. I mean that is one of the greatest duos in the 90's behind MJ and Pippen. All the other guys you are catergorizing have had no one on there team...</div> Name me one player that done it all by themselves? Jordan didn't, Magic didn't, Shaq didn't. Nobody did. There is a difference to a star, and a superstar. Allen Iverson is a star. Kobe Bryant is a superstar. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">So let's see, Nazr Mohammad is a superstar now that he has the ring?</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You're saying that arguably Ginobili is a superstar.</div> Nope, I'm saying that Tim Duncan is a star because without him, the Spurs wouldn't have won anything. Tim Duncan was the main reason why the Spurs won. They could have done it without Manu and Nazr. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq was going nowhere without Kobe? Shaq had been on the Lakers for 2 years, before Kobe started to start games and develop. So you're saying Shaq, who by the way was still developing his game and hadn't reached his prime yet, was supposed to win a championship with no star powered help?</div> Shaq was given three seasons to do something and he didn't. By that time, Shaq had been in the NBA for 7 seasons and had played against Jordan, Ewing, Olujawan etc. etc. He should have started making something of himself if he could have done it without Kobe. I am saying when Kobe came along and started scoring and become an equal threat, Shaq won 3 rings. Ask yourself this, would Shaq have won a ring ever or ever reached his "prime" if a stand in gaurd who averaged 14 points 5 rebs and 5 assists replaced Kobe? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And oh yea, what C's besides Shaq/Duncan are going to go for 25 points against Yao? There aren't any more dominant C's in the league..</div> Thank you for pointing this out for me. Another reason why T-Mac should have made it past the first round if he was a "superstar." <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now we'll bring it back to Yao, he can't be considered a superstar if he doesn't 'do it all' with one of the top three guards in the league.</div> No, he will be a "superstar" because he would have at some point had to carry the team on his own. Just like Kobe did for periods when Shaq was injured. If you didn't read, I called Kobe a superstar so if T-Mac done it all with Yao, he too would be a superstar. The fact is, he hasn't. TheAnswer2, I'm confused because your post helps me prove everything I just said.
Allen Iverson not a superstar? The man is probably the best little man of all time and is definitely one of the best scorers of all time. He is top three of ALL TIME in ppg but yet he is just an ordinary star... where does Kobe rank on the all time PPG list, or the all time steals per game list? Ridiculous, everyone thinks KG is a huge star but how many times has he made the Finals at all? ZERO, how many times has he actually even got out of the first round? All of AI's accomplishments already make him a superstar; he doesn't even need a ring to be a legend.
[ <font color="navy">East:</font> Shaquille O'neal, Allen Iverson, Jason Kidd <font color="navy">West:</font> Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnettt, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady <u>Top players:</u> <font color="Navy">East:</font> Wade, Lebron, Vince, Arenas, Pierce, JO, Ben, Marbury <font color="Navy">West:</font> Amare, Dirk, Nash, Allen, Brand, Baron, Marion <u>All-Stars/Borderline All-Stars:</u> <font color="Navy">East:</font> Artest, Jefferson, Webber, Jamison, Hughes, Redd, Francis, Rip, Hill, Billups, Rasheed, Ilguaskas, Bosh, Emeka, Waker, Magloire <font color="Navy">West:</font> Yao, Ginobili, Kirilenko, Maggette, Peja, Bibby, Carmelo, Randolph, Boozer, Gasol, Kirilenko, J-Rich, Rashard, Odom, Joe Johnson, B.Miller from this i would say it looks pretty even!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Mutumbo was defensive player of the year! How can you say he was aging? He was an All Star, averaged nearly 14 rebounds and 3 blocks! Eric Snow averaged 8 assists and nearly 10 points. Don't even try to say that Allen didn't have a supporting cast, because he did. Not to mention Larry Brown! Would AI have carried the Lakers when Shaq was injured? Would AI have saved the Lakers ass over and over again with amazing clutch play? I don't think so. Name me one player that done it all by themselves? Jordan didn't, Magic didn't, Shaq didn't. Nobody did. There is a difference to a star, and a superstar. Allen Iverson is a star. Kobe Bryant is a superstar. Nope, I'm saying that Tim Duncan is a star because without him, the Spurs wouldn't have won anything. Tim Duncan was the main reason why the Spurs won. They could have done it without Manu and Nazr. Shaq was given three seasons to do something and he didn't. By that time, Shaq had been in the NBA for 7 seasons and had played against Jordan, Ewing, Olujawan etc. etc. He should have started making something of himself if he could have done it without Kobe. I am saying when Kobe came along and started scoring and become an equal threat, Shaq won 3 rings. Ask yourself this, would Shaq have won a ring ever or ever reached his "prime" if a stand in gaurd who averaged 14 points 5 rebs and 5 assists replaced Kobe? Thank you for pointing this out for me. Another reason why T-Mac should have made it past the first round if he was a "superstar." No, he will be a "superstar" because he would have at some point had to carry the team on his own. Just like Kobe did for periods when Shaq was injured. If you didn't read, I called Kobe a superstar so if T-Mac done it all with Yao, he too would be a superstar. The fact is, he hasn't. TheAnswer2, I'm confused because your post helps me prove everything I just said.</div> Everything you noted that had to do with Iverson's supporting cast had nothing to do with offense. Yes, Mutombo was defensive player of the year...but what was he going to do against Shaq? What did he do against shaq? Yea, I'd say it'd be pretty easy to average 8 assists w/ AI on your team. And seeing as how AI averaged 4 ast's a game, Snow had to do most of the passing. Would AI have carried the Lakers? Are you serious? Does he not carry the Sixers every game? Is AI not a clutch player? Having made two game winning shots in the period of two weeks? When the game is on the line, what does AI give you? Well, what do you need...points. He has known to play fantastic clutch defense, getting key steals at the end of games. While I believe Kobe is a better all around offensive player, AI is a purer dynamic scorer, being able to score in big bunches. After Shaq he the most unstoppable player when he gets hot. Only Kobe-type players can defend him, and not even that well. 5 straight with 40+ as a rookie? A 60 point game? with a previous career high of 57? Back to back 50 point games? Kobe was erratic in scoring this season, he would drop 40, then next game drop 12, yea, that happened too. Yea, you never did mention who won it all by themselves either.. So, if Iveson is 39 years old in the league and is the 9th man coming off the bench averaging half a point for a championship caliber team, would you consider him being a superstar? Shaq wasn't doing anything for himself? In those two season between him becoming a Laker and Kobe starting he averaged: 27.25ppg, 2.64bpg, 2.75apg, 11.95rpg..It was a famous analyst who said you need at least 2 All-Star caliber players to win a championship. So whether it was Kobe, or Arenas, Shaq was going to win a Championship. I think your definition of a superstar is too constricting, too limited. It's almost like saying only Finals MVP's are considered superstars..
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Mutumbo was defensive player of the year! How can you say he was aging? He was an All Star, averaged nearly 14 rebounds and 3 blocks! Eric Snow averaged 8 assists and nearly 10 points. Don't even try to say that Allen didn't have a supporting cast, because he did. Not to mention Larry Brown!</div> Mutumbo was thirty five that year, don't tell me he wasn't aging. The very next year he was plagued with injuries so yeah, his body was breaking down. Dikembe was an incredible defensive presence, but definitely not a good offensive weapon. He had 11.7 average points per game that season, don't tell me that's good and that Iverson could rely on him for points. Snow had 9.8 points and 7.4 assists that year- which proves I was right, he's not really an offensive weapon. Eric Snow is a good distributor, playmaker, and defender- but not someone you can rely on for points every night. The Cassell of the Garnett run to the Western Finals puts his numbers to shame too. Sam I Am had 19.8 points with 7.3 assists in almost the same amount of minutes that Snow had. I'll admit, Mckie was a good sixth man, but he's not comparable to Sprewell. Sprewell had 16.8 points that year while Mckie only had 11.6 points. I never said Iverson didn't have a supporting cast, just it is well, offensively handicapped compared to Garnett's. Garnett had Cassell and Sprewell who he could consistently count on for points while it was pretty much up to Iverson to give the team points. He pretty much carried his team to the Eastern Finals, surrounded by defensive players. Honestly, how can you say he's a borderline superstar? Oh, and I like Og's list the best at this point.
The East is definately more marketable now with Iverson and Lebron especially. The West doesn't have very marketable stars. Kobe is still my man, but he's not on top anymore.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TheAnswer2:</div><div class="quote_post">Everything you noted that had to do with Iverson's supporting cast had nothing to do with offense. Yes, Mutombo was defensive player of the year...but what was he going to do against Shaq? What did he do against shaq? Yea, I'd say it'd be pretty easy to average 8 assists w/ AI on your team. And seeing as how AI averaged 4 ast's a game, Snow had to do most of the passing. Would AI have carried the Lakers? Are you serious? Does he not carry the Sixers every game? Is AI not a clutch player? Having made two game winning shots in the period of two weeks? When the game is on the line, what does AI give you? Well, what do you need...points. He has known to play fantastic clutch defense, getting key steals at the end of games. While I believe Kobe is a better all around offensive player, AI is a purer dynamic scorer, being able to score in big bunches. After Shaq he the most unstoppable player when he gets hot. Only Kobe-type players can defend him, and not even that well. 5 straight with 40+ as a rookie? A 60 point game? with a previous career high of 57? Back to back 50 point games? Kobe was erratic in scoring this season, he would drop 40, then next game drop 12, yea, that happened too. Yea, you never did mention who won it all by themselves either.. So, if Iveson is 39 years old in the league and is the 9th man coming off the bench averaging half a point for a championship caliber team, would you consider him being a superstar? Shaq wasn't doing anything for himself? In those two season between him becoming a Laker and Kobe starting he averaged: 27.25ppg, 2.64bpg, 2.75apg, 11.95rpg..It was a famous analyst who said you need at least 2 All-Star caliber players to win a championship. So whether it was Kobe, or Arenas, Shaq was going to win a Championship. I think your definition of a superstar is too constricting, too limited. It's almost like saying only Finals MVP's are considered superstars..</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Allen Iverson not a superstar? The man is probably the best little man of all time and is definitely one of the best scorers of all time. He is top three of ALL TIME in ppg but yet he is just an ordinary star... where does Kobe rank on the all time PPG list, or the all time steals per game list? Ridiculous, everyone thinks KG is a huge star but how many times has he made the Finals at all? ZERO, how many times has he actually even got out of the first round? All of AI's accomplishments already make him a superstar; he doesn't even need a ring to be a legend.</div> All you've said is AI has better stats. Big whoop. I couldn't care less if AI had 50 points a game and 20 assists a game. If his team didn't win, he shouldn't be considered a superstar. In that finals season, he had Mutumbo, defensive player of the year. I don't care how old you are, if you are still winning the award for Defensive Player Of The Year, you are a big help in the team. It doesn't matter if the next season he flopped, it show's that AI did have a supporting cast when he made it to the finals. Also, when you mentioned Spreewell and Cassell scoring so many points, all that meant was that the ball was in Garnett's hands less. Check the percentage that they shot the ball at. TheAnswer2, you didn't read my post clearly as I said that nobody has won it by themselves. The point is, if you do have the supporting cast and you make it to the finals, as AI did, you can't say he done it by himself, because he didn't. He had somebody dishing out 8 assists and somebody getting 14 rebounds as a defensive player of the year on his team. AI is not as clutch as Kobe. Put the ball in AI's hands all those times Kobe saved the Lakers and he won't do the same as Kobe all the time. He'll get some, but he'll also choke a few times. Kobe has hit wonder shots that are way beyond the 3 point line that have saved the game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The East is definately more marketable now with Iverson and Lebron especially. The West doesn't have very marketable stars. Kobe is still my man, but he's not on top anymore.</div> The most marketable player in the NBA is Shaq. Without a doubt. However, the team that is winning will always be marketable.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">All you've said is AI has better stats. Big whoop. I couldn't care less if AI had 50 points a game and 20 assists a game. If his team didn't win, he shouldn't be considered a superstar. In that finals season, he had Mutumbo, defensive player of the year. I don't care how old you are, if you are still winning the award for Defensive Player Of The Year, you are a big help in the team. It doesn't matter if the next season he flopped, it show's that AI did have a supporting cast when he made it to the finals. Also, when you mentioned Spreewell and Cassell scoring so many points, all that meant was that the ball was in Garnett's hands less. Check the percentage that they shot the ball at. TheAnswer2, you didn't read my post clearly as I said that nobody has won it by themselves. The point is, if you do have the supporting cast and you make it to the finals, as AI did, you can't say he done it by himself, because he didn't. He had somebody dishing out 8 assists and somebody getting 14 rebounds as a defensive player of the year on his team. AI is not as clutch as Kobe. Put the ball in AI's hands all those times Kobe saved the Lakers and he won't do the same as Kobe all the time. He'll get some, but he'll also choke a few times. Kobe has hit wonder shots that are way beyond the 3 point line that have saved the game. The most marketable player in the NBA is Shaq. Without a doubt. However, the team that is winning will always be marketable.</div> Haha, you know, I will admit...you do have balls. I mean, you just blatantly state that AI will choke in pressure situations..you're making it obvious about your bias against anybody as good as Kobe. And truthfully, by your definition of superstar..Kobe isn't one. See, Kobe was not the difference maker in the 3 rings he got on the Lakers, he wasn't the Finals MVP, therefore, he wasn't the deciding factor. I believe Shaq could've won the Chip w/ Wade this year, because it doesn't matter who Shaq has by his side. As long as he has an All-Star caliber guard to help, he can win a championship. This season proved how much Kobe needed Shaq and not the other way around. Who carried the team when nobody was injured? Certainly not Kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">In that finals season, he had Mutumbo, defensive player of the year. I don't care how old you are, if you are still winning the award for Defensive Player Of The Year, you are a big help in the team. It doesn't matter if the next season he flopped, it show's that AI did have a supporting cast when he made it to the finals.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AI did have a supporting cast when he made it to the finals.</div> You're right. A.I did have a supporting cast because basically every star/superstar has a supporting cast if you really look at it. Heck, Fred Carter had a supporting cast when his team went 9-72. But that's not the point because like I said every main player has a supporting cast and the deciding factor is how good they really are. And quite frankly Iverson 2001 supporting cast wasn't all that great. Yes they were good to a certain degree because they were the first seed and all, but in actuality if compared to a championship team or other championship contender teams that year or in years past they are not very good at all. Some nights A.I had to settle for 35 shots that just how bad this team was offensively. Aside from Kobe, Shaq had Fisher, Fox, Horry etc. The Pistons have one another. Duncan had Manu, Parker, Robinson, Horry, Barry etc. And even dating back to Jordan championship days, besides Pippen of course, Jordan had a fare share of help from teammates like Grant and Paxton to Rodman and Kerr. But take a timeout and look at who A.I had in the 01' campaign. C- Mutumbo PF- Hill SF- Lynch SG- Iverson PG- Snow Bench: Ollie, McKie, Buford, Bell etc Now compare this team to other championship contender?s team in years past, and you would see that this team wasn't really that good. Tell me when was the last time you seen a 1st seed having to go all the way to a grueling Game 7 in not just the Conference Finals but in the 2nd round as well. That just goes to prove you that the 76ers weren't that much better than the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th seed. Heck the 8th seed Indiana gave them a run for their money in the first round. So all in all, this supporting is again just not that great and to say that he had legitimate help is completely irrelevant. Aside from true superstars (Shaq and Duncan) I truly believe not one other player could have carry this team filled with mediocrity that far. Not Kidd, Kobe nor McGrady or Garnett. He led that team with pure heart and passion and that?s what you call a superstar. And let?s be serious you said just because he only made the Finals once he hasn?t had much success. Well he did get to the 2nd round a couple times and lead the 76ers to the Playoffs countless times on his 6 foot frame. So to say that he?s not a winner or something more to the likes he can?t win is completely bogus. And then there is the clutch factor. (this is not completely directed at you Laker_fan. I?m speaking in general because it?s not only you that has a misperception on the fact that A.I is not clutch.) To clear this up, when Iverson hit his first GW shot that wasn?t really his first. People fail to understand that the shot he against the Pacers was his first GW shot he made WITH expired time. The reason they made a big fuss about it is because when you look at him as the former MVP, 5-Time All-Star (at that time), R.O.Y, Scoring Champion and so on, it was shocking to see that in his 9-year phenomenal career that was just his first time hitting a GW shot with no time reaming on the clock, he hasn?t even done this in college. For those whom really have followed Iverson career would know that he in indeed clutch. He has hit countless GW shots with under 15 secs remaining or so, he?s made GW FT?s, GW Steals (he had 3 GW steals this season alone) and in addition has made a fare share of GW assists. So to say that Iverson is not clutch is completely wrong. I wouldn?t say he is as clutch as Kobe, Bibby, Horry, Billups etc, but he is without doubt in the 2nd tier among clutch players in this league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">All you've said is AI has better stats. Big whoop. I couldn't care less if AI had 50 points a game and 20 assists a game. If his team didn't win, he shouldn't be considered a superstar. In that finals season, he had Mutumbo, defensive player of the year. I don't care how old you are, if you are still winning the award for Defensive Player Of The Year, you are a big help in the team. It doesn't matter if the next season he flopped, it show's that AI did have a supporting cast when he made it to the finals. Also, when you mentioned Spreewell and Cassell scoring so many points, all that meant was that the ball was in Garnett's hands less. Check the percentage that they shot the ball at. TheAnswer2, you didn't read my post clearly as I said that nobody has won it by themselves. The point is, if you do have the supporting cast and you make it to the finals, as AI did, you can't say he done it by himself, because he didn't. He had somebody dishing out 8 assists and somebody getting 14 rebounds as a defensive player of the year on his team. AI is not as clutch as Kobe. Put the ball in AI's hands all those times Kobe saved the Lakers and he won't do the same as Kobe all the time. He'll get some, but he'll also choke a few times. Kobe has hit wonder shots that are way beyond the 3 point line that have saved the game. The most marketable player in the NBA is Shaq. Without a doubt. However, the team that is winning will always be marketable.</div> You are contradicting yourself, you said KG was a superstar right? But your saying AI is not because he hasn't won anything. NEWSFLASH! Neither has Kevin Garnett, he has only made it past the first round in all those playoffs appearances one or two times. John Stockton and Karl Malone, both one of the 50th Greatest Players of all time, aren't superstars because they haven't won a ring? Just because a player hasn't been graced with a championship, how does that take away form what the player has accomplished to establish himself as a big name player in the league?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">^....ummmm considering the Nuggets had no playoff experience last year, and Raptors in 2001 was Carter's prime, Bucks had Allen,Cassell,GRob....anyways I think we're getting off topic. This is bottomline, the West has more stars now, but East has more stars for the future</div> Okay? What does that have to do with anything, it was Iverson's too. I'm not saying they were a bad team [the Raptors that is], I mean they lost in Game 7 on a game winning attempt, but both teams were similar. Weak offensive team outside of the main star, and the Raptors were not as good defensively. The Bucks were good, but had no inside presence, and they were not a force defensively. Allen was the best defender of the three, and he's only average at best, while GRob and Cassell were both bad defenders. Also the Nuggets team was still as good as any of the teams Philly faced on the road to the finals that year, and Sacramento was very good themselves. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Would AI have carried the Lakers when Shaq was injured? Would AI have saved the Lakers ass over and over again with amazing clutch play? I don't think so.</div> I don't see why he couldn't have carried them? He's not the clutch shooter or scorer Kobe is, or many of the other SG's are, he actually get's to the line less and shoots worse down the stretch, but he can definately carry a team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Name me one player that done it all by themselves? Jordan didn't, Magic didn't, Shaq didn't. Nobody did. There is a difference to a star, and a superstar. Allen Iverson is a star. Kobe Bryant is a superstar.</div> Allen Iverson has won an MVP award, to say Kobe is a superstar and Iverson is not because he won 3 rings with a Top 2 player of the 90's, 50 Greatest of All-Time, and most dominant big man in his era is absurd. Really, that's all it is.... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Everything you noted that had to do with Iverson's supporting cast had nothing to do with offense. Yes, Mutombo was defensive player of the year...but what was he going to do against Shaq? What did he do against shaq? Yea, I'd say it'd be pretty easy to average 8 assists w/ AI on your team. And seeing as how AI averaged 4 ast's a game, Snow had to do most of the passing. </div> Huh? I don't get this part? How would it be easy? Iverson is not a catch and shoot player, and he's not a good shooter anyways, so it's not like you can go out and rack up assists off AI, he doesn't catch and shoot, he hardly get's assisted because he always puts the ball on the floor. Iverson also has the ball in his hands a lot, so averaging 8 assists on a team that people are saying has no offense, and the best offensive player was not a guy you can rack assists off of is actually good.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">so averaging 8 assists on a team that people are saying has no offense, and the best offensive player was not a guy you can rack assists off of is actually good.</div> I don't where he got Snow averaging eight assists. With his stint with the 76ers, Snow has averaged just under 7 APG for the 76ers. Anyways, the 76ers have always been in the middle to top among teams in fast-break points, thus that explains where Snow might have got most of his assists from because I know for sure Hill or Lynch was not the ones finishing the plays.
