<div class="quote_poster">Quoting B-22:</div><div class="quote_post">You are contradicting yourself, you said KG was a superstar right? But your saying AI is not because he hasn't won anything. NEWSFLASH! Neither has Kevin Garnett, he has only made it past the first round in all those playoffs appearances one or two times. John Stockton and Karl Malone, both one of the 50th Greatest Players of all time, aren't superstars because they haven't won a ring? Just because a player hasn't been graced with a championship, how does that take away form what the player has accomplished to establish himself as a big name player in the league?</div> Firstly, Kevin Garnett is a superstar because he dominates. I can't really say the same thing for AI. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but he is without doubt in the 2nd tier among clutch players in this league.</div> Exactly, he would be considered All NBA Second team if we decided who goes in by clutch play. NBA Second team wouldn't have won him the back to back to back. I don't even think that if you put him with Shaq he would have won anything. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But that's not the point because like I said every main player has a supporting cast and the deciding factor is how good they really are.</div> Allen is great offensively. He score's heavily but at a poor FG%. Still, without a doubt he's great offensivly. On defence, no way could you call him amongst the best. He doesn't put up enough boards and I'd like to see him totally shut down his man. Hopefully somebody that is a fellow star. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">John Stockton and Karl Malone, both one of the 50th Greatest Players of all time, aren't superstars because they haven't won a ring?</div> Malone is an overrated choke artist. As Charles Barkley said, Malone is nothing without Stockton. Stockton is a superstar because he dominated. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He led that team with pure heart and passion and that?s what you call a superstar. And let?s be serious you said just because he only made the Finals once he hasn?t had much success. Well he did get to the 2nd round a couple times and lead the 76ers to the Playoffs countless times on his 6 foot frame. So to say that he?s not a winner or something more to the likes he can?t win is completely bogus.</div> It's clear that he is given credit because he's 6 foot. Leading a team with pure heart and passion doesn't make you a superstar. As you said, its all about how good you are. So, lets scrap my ideas of you having to win a championship and lets judge on how good you are, not your passion. This concludes to Garnett being a superstar and Allen not, because of his lack of defense. You can't blame him for being smaller then the average player, but its a fact that he won't be able to shut down a fellow star. Garnett does this offensively and defensively. The same goes for Bryant. It was your idea on how good you are, which I actually agree with. That clearly means that Allen is not a superstar because of his defense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Firstly, Kevin Garnett is a superstar because he dominates. I can't really say the same thing for AI. Exactly, he would be considered All NBA Second team if we decided who goes in by clutch play. NBA Second team wouldn't have won him the back to back to back. I don't even think that if you put him with Shaq he would have won anything. Allen is great offensively. He score's heavily but at a poor FG%. Still, without a doubt he's great offensivly. On defence, no way could you call him amongst the best. He doesn't put up enough boards and I'd like to see him totally shut down his man. Hopefully somebody that is a fellow star. Malone is an overrated choke artist. As Charles Barkley said, Malone is nothing without Stockton. Stockton is a superstar because he dominated. It's clear that he is given credit because he's 6 foot. Leading a team with pure heart and passion doesn't make you a superstar. As you said, its all about how good you are. So, lets scrap my ideas of you having to win a championship and lets judge on how good you are, not your passion. This concludes to Garnett being a superstar and Allen not, because of his lack of defense. You can't blame him for being smaller then the average player, but its a fact that he won't be able to shut down a fellow star. Garnett does this offensively and defensively. The same goes for Bryant. It was your idea on how good you are, which I actually agree with. That clearly means that Allen is not a superstar because of his defense.</div> AI doesn't dominate? Do you need to go look at those stats again to see that he does dominate? Or do you just need to watch basketball more? There is not a player in the league who can guard AI averaging 30 points per game in a season is dominating. When it comes to scoring AI dominates almost every game, he is the Shaq of the perimeter. AI is not as bad as of a defender as some other guards in the league, I mean he is no Artest but his steals per game is a great quality off defense and you forgot to mention that. So when it comes down to getting steals (he leads the league in them nearly every year to) he is a great defender. When you are usually undersized it is hard to be a very good on the ball defender, but honestly most of the players AI is matched up against is always tired from guarding him. You can't say he isn't a superstar because he isn't a good on the ball defender.... and you can't say it?s because of his defense at all because he gets lots of steals.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Firstly, Kevin Garnett is a superstar because he dominates. I can't really say the same thing for AI. </div> Allen Iverson doesn't dominate? He was leader in scoring this year and dropped forty plus points numerous times this year including a sixty point outing against Orlando. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Exactly, he would be considered All NBA Second team if we decided who goes in by clutch play. NBA Second team wouldn't have won him the back to back to back. I don't even think that if you put him with Shaq he would have won anything. </div> You make it sound like the second team is bad . First of all, it doesn't matter how clutch you are- simply because "clutchness" does not determine whether you are a superstar or not. Would you say Shaq isn't a superstar because he's not clutch? And like Avery said, sometimes its not how many points on the board you put up in the last couple minutes but your all around game. There were countless times Iverson made a crucial steal or hounding defense in the last couple minutes in a game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Allen is great offensively. He score's heavily but at a poor FG%. Still, without a doubt he's great offensivly. On defence, no way could you call him amongst the best. He doesn't put up enough boards and I'd like to see him totally shut down his man. Hopefully somebody that is a fellow star.</div> Hate to burst your bubble but he ranked first this season in total steals as well as second in the league for steals per game. On top of that, sixth in the league for steals per 48 minutes. Who cares if he can't rebound that well. Your so called superstar in Stockton was just about as bad a rebounder. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's clear that he is given credit because he's 6 foot. Leading a team with pure heart and passion doesn't make you a superstar. As you said, its all about how good you are. So, lets scrap my ideas of you having to win a championship and lets judge on how good you are, not your passion. This concludes to Garnett being a superstar and Allen not, because of his lack of defense. You can't blame him for being smaller then the average player, but its a fact that he won't be able to shut down a fellow star. Garnett does this offensively and defensively. The same goes for Bryant. </div> Again, look above for my rebuttal to your Iverson can't play defense comment. Alright, lets judge Garnett's defense. Can Garnett shut down a fellow star, say Tim Duncan? Iverson's defense is actually fairly good, I don't know why you're saying he can't shut someone down.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Firstly, Kevin Garnett is a superstar because he dominates. I can't really say the same thing for AI. Exactly, he would be considered All NBA Second team if we decided who goes in by clutch play. NBA Second team wouldn't have won him the back to back to back. I don't even think that if you put him with Shaq he would have won anything. Allen is great offensively. He score's heavily but at a poor FG%. Still, without a doubt he's great offensivly. On defence, no way could you call him amongst the best. He doesn't put up enough boards and I'd like to see him totally shut down his man. Hopefully somebody that is a fellow star. Malone is an overrated choke artist. As Charles Barkley said, Malone is nothing without Stockton. Stockton is a superstar because he dominated. It's clear that he is given credit because he's 6 foot. Leading a team with pure heart and passion doesn't make you a superstar. As you said, its all about how good you are. So, lets scrap my ideas of you having to win a championship and lets judge on how good you are, not your passion. This concludes to Garnett being a superstar and Allen not, because of his lack of defense. You can't blame him for being smaller then the average player, but its a fact that he won't be able to shut down a fellow star. Garnett does this offensively and defensively. The same goes for Bryant. It was your idea on how good you are, which I actually agree with. That clearly means that Allen is not a superstar because of his defense.</div> This discussion is quickly getting ridiculous. Laker fan's clearly not giving credit to Iverson for his accomplishments. In his interview on Quite Frankly with Stephen A. Smith, Iverson complained/joked why he never gets voted to the All-Defensive team, when he leads the league in steals "damn near every year." While KG is a great defensive player, he doesn't shut down opposing PF's to lower scoring. He lacks body weight to effectively keep TD from the post. Iverson doesn't dominate? He goes into every game with the odds stacked against him and mismatches almost every night. I don't understand why you're so sore when it comes to Iverson, but to not give him credit for his superstar status.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is not a player in the league who can guard AI averaging 30 points per game in a season is dominating. When it comes to scoring AI dominates almost every game, he is the Shaq of the perimeter</div> That's pushing it there, Kobe and Tmac's 30+ PPG seasons were both better than Iverson's 30 PPG seasons because of the margin in efficiency. Iverson can put points up on the board, but his lack of efficiency cannot be neglected. Laker_Fan makes me laugh though....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">That's pushing it there, Kobe and Tmac's 30+ PPG seasons were both better than Iverson's 30 PPG seasons because of the margin in efficiency. Iverson can put points up on the board, but his lack of efficiency cannot be neglected. Laker_Fan makes me laugh though....</div> True, but how many 30+ seasons did Kobe have? 1. T-Mac? 1 Iverson..3. But, TMac/Kobes are still very young, so I really don't know yet. I don't doubt both of them won't pass Iverson on the All-Time scoring list, because they came out of HS.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There is not a player in the league who can guard AI averaging 30 points per game in a season is dominating. </div> Alot of players would average 30+ points if they took as many shots as AI did. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AI averaging 30 points per game in a season is dominating. When it comes to scoring AI dominates almost every game, he is the Shaq of the perimeter. </div> Exaduration of the decade. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and you can't say it’s because of his defense at all because he gets lots of steals.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Hate to burst your bubble but he ranked first this season in total steals as well as second in the league for steals per game. On top of that, sixth in the league for steals per 48 minutes. </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">In his interview on Quite Frankly with Stephen A. Smith, Iverson complained/joked why he never gets voted to the All-Defensive team, when he leads the league in steals "damn near every year."</div> Since when was getting steals the main reason to decide if you are a bad defender? I guess Allen is a better defender then Shaq because he gets more steals then him. Defense is all about shutting down your man. Allen Iverson doesn't do that. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You make it sound like the second team is bad . First of all, it doesn't matter how clutch you are- simply because "clutchness" does not determine whether you are a superstar or not. Would you say Shaq isn't a superstar because he's not clutch? And like Avery said, sometimes its not how many points on the board you put up in the last couple minutes but your all around game. There were countless times Iverson made a crucial steal or hounding defense in the last couple minutes in a game. </div> It's clear your not reading the previous posts. As I said, Allen wouldn't have saved the Lakers all those times but some of those times if he played for LA. That was a different topic we were discussing. Read the whole thread before you post next time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">True, but how many 30+ seasons did Kobe have? 1. T-Mac? 1 Iverson..3. But, TMac/Kobes are still very young, so I really don't know yet. I don't doubt both of them won't pass Iverson on the All-Time scoring list, because they came out of HS.</div> As I said before, scoring doesn't make you a superstar, especially when you take as many shots as AI does with his poor FG%. Alot of other players would be scoring 30+ points if they took as many shots as Allen does. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This discussion is quickly getting ridiculous. Laker fan's clearly not giving credit to Iverson for his accomplishments.</div> I give him credit, I just think its unfair to rank him with the like's of Garnett. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, look above for my rebuttal to your Iverson can't play defense comment.</div> Again, read why steals doesn't make you a good defensive player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Alright, lets judge Garnett's defense. Can Garnett shut down a fellow star, say Tim Duncan? </div> They can't shut down each other. When they play together, they are equal. Garnett can shut down every other PF in the NBA though. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">While KG is a great defensive player, he doesn't shut down opposing PF's to lower scoring. He lacks body weight to effectively keep TD from the post.</div> Tim Duncan doesn't shut down KG either. Are you actually trying to compare Kevin to Iverson? Especially their defence's? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Laker_Fan makes me laugh though....</div> In what way? I believe that Allen Iverson is a good player but he can't be classed as a superstar because he lacks defense.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Alot of players would average 30+ points if they took as many shots as AI did.</div> Like who? maybe Ray allen or an upcoming superstar, but scoring 30 a game, is not an easy feat. You're not getting it, Kobe ran the Lakers last year, he led them (with a better team I might say) like McGrady did in his last year with Orlando. He had a lot of bad shooting games. See, when you don't have a secondary superstar (like AI has now, or Kobe did) you are relied on for scoring every single game, on an off night or not. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Since when was getting steals the main reason to decide if you are a bad defender? I guess Allen is a better defender then Shaq because he gets more steals then him. Defense is all about shutting down your man. Allen Iverson doesn't do that.</div> How can you compare a PG's defense to a C? A PG's job on defense isn't always to shut the other man down (remember, other PG's may not be like Marbury/Francis) so they might not be doing most of the scoring. A PG is supposed to disrupt the other teams offense by hassling the opposing guard. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's clear your not reading the previous posts. As I said, Allen wouldn't have saved the Lakers all those times but some of those times if he played for LA. That was a different topic we were discussing. Read the whole thread before you post next time.</div> How do you know? How do you know they'd even be in the position to need saving? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> They can't shut down each other. When they play together, they are equal. Garnett can shut down every other PF in the NBA though.</div> Jermaine has had some big games against Garnett <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Tim Duncan doesn't shut down KG either. Are you actually trying to compare Kevin to Iverson? Especially their defence's?</div> You just tried the same thing with Shaq above..
Laker Fan, if what you're saying is true, then there is no possible way to "measure" a player's defense. If rebounds and steals as stats don't attribute to defense, then there's really no possible ways to debate about Iverson's defense. I doubt you watch too many Sixers games, but if you do, you would actually find that you are underrating Iverson's defense against his man. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Since when was getting steals the main reason to decide if you are a bad defender? I guess Allen is a better defender then Shaq because he gets more steals then him. Defense is all about shutting down your man. Allen Iverson doesn't do that.</div> Its a way of measuring defense for a guard. Rebounding and blocks is kind of a way of showing defense for powerforwards or centers. Really, what other way can you give me defense in stats or numbers? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> They can't shut down each other. When they play together, they are equal. Garnett can shut down every other PF in the NBA though.</div> And yet you said that- "This concludes to Garnett being a superstar and Allen not, because of his lack of defense. You can't blame him for being smaller then the average player, but its a fact that he won't be able to shut down a fellow star. Garnett does this offensively and defensively. The same goes for Bryant." Garnett can't shut down Duncan, a fellow star, so therefore he isn't considered a superstar, if you go by your contradicting statements above. And actually, I was trying to compare Garnett to Iverson. From your list, you said that Garnett was a superstar, compared to Iverson who was borderline- when in actuality they are very alike. Neither has won a championship and both have brought their team to their conference finals (even though Garnett had a better supporting cast).
My List West Kobe Timmy T Mac Peja Kevin Amare Nash Manu Bibby Dirk East AI VC Shaq D Wade Francis Pierce Lebron Kidd Jefferson Rasheed Rip Big Ben CWebb Jermaine Artest Chauncey
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bkbballer16:</div><div class="quote_post">My List West Kobe Timmy T Mac Peja Kevin Amare Nash Manu Bibby Dirk East AI VC Shaq D Wade Francis Pierce Lebron Kidd Jefferson Rasheed Rip Big Ben CWebb Jermaine Artest Chauncey</div> Nice list, but I wouldn't build a franchise around Peja, Nash, Manu, Bibby, Jefferson, Sheed, Rip, BWallace, CWebb, Artest or Chauncy. They are stars of their respective teams though..
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Laker_fan:</div><div class="quote_post">Alot of players would average 30+ points if they took as many shots as AI did. Exaduration of the decade. Since when was getting steals the main reason to decide if you are a bad defender? I guess Allen is a better defender then Shaq because he gets more steals then him. Defense is all about shutting down your man. Allen Iverson doesn't do that. It's clear your not reading the previous posts. As I said, Allen wouldn't have saved the Lakers all those times but some of those times if he played for LA. That was a different topic we were discussing. Read the whole thread before you post next time. As I said before, scoring doesn't make you a superstar, especially when you take as many shots as AI does with his poor FG%. Alot of other players would be scoring 30+ points if they took as many shots as Allen does. I give him credit, I just think its unfair to rank him with the like's of Garnett. Again, read why steals doesn't make you a good defensive player. They can't shut down each other. When they play together, they are equal. Garnett can shut down every other PF in the NBA though. Tim Duncan doesn't shut down KG either. Are you actually trying to compare Kevin to Iverson? Especially their defence's? In what way? I believe that Allen Iverson is a good player but he can't be classed as a superstar because he lacks defense.</div> If scoring doesn't make you a superstar, then neither does passing.... in that case then John Stockton wasn't a superstar? How can you say steals don't measure how good of a defensive player you are? What is it then, just another part of the game a miscellaneous stat? Steals, blocks, creating turnovers, and on the ball defending are ALL a part of defense. AI excels at one of them so what do you call that then? Somewhere down the line there is a hall of famer that didn't play that great on the ball defense, are they not a hall of famer or superstar because of that one thing? What has Kobe done his whole career? He has been a second option that is what, and look at your Lakers now, look how good they played when Kobe was the man. I assure you if AI was able to play with Shaq they would have multiple championships and still counting. AI wouldn't have drove Shaq off of his team to be the man. Not to mention what else does Kobe do besides score? There are the obvious rebounding numbers because he has the size to rebound, he doesn't shoot much higher then AI when it comes to FG% and he gets his shots every game. You?re obviously bias putting him as a superstar over AI, while I agree they are both super stars. Anybody who can be a top 10 player in the league, sell tons of merchandise, be a perennial all star, and sell tons of tickets is a superstar. If anyone is a borderline superstar in this case it has to be Kobe, riding on Shaqs back his whole career was easy. Now look at him, it isn't so easy being the teams best player and sole provider, welcome to AI's shoes. Kobe might as well sign a shoe deal with Reebok to feel what it's like. Lets see how he does carrying a team on his back these next few years, because I know Allen Iverson has done a hell of a job with players that weren't, or are not very good around him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> That's pushing it there, Kobe and Tmac's 30+ PPG seasons were both better than Iverson's 30 PPG seasons because of the margin in efficiency. Iverson can put points up on the board, but his lack of efficiency cannot be neglected.</div> That?s not my point, when it comes down to it AI has been the best scorer in the game for the past 5-6 seasons. There is a stat out there that proves it for me; he averages the most ppg in that amount of time like I said around 5-7 seasons. More than Kobe, Shaq, Carter, Pierce. All of those guys you can think of as top scorers.
Actually it's true, steals doesn't measure how good a defender you are. You can gamble a lot and get 2 steals a game, but on the other 4 times you miss, allow for easy penetration, and maybe allow 2 baskets. That's not playing good defense. Iverson is not a bad defender though, he does gamble too much at times and leave his teammates having to shuffle around and help, but overall he's a slightly above average defender at PG.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually it's true, steals doesn't measure how good a defender you are. You can gamble a lot and get 2 steals a game, but on the other 4 times you miss, allow for easy penetration, and maybe allow 2 baskets. That's not playing good defense. Iverson is not a bad defender though, he does gamble too much at times and leave his teammates having to shuffle around and help, but overall he's a slightly above average defender at PG.</div> Well I can agree with you on that much, but I don't really mean that steals can justify how good of a defender you are. But what I am saying is, when you create steals and turnovers then you are putting in some kind of work on defense. Yes, gambling for steals is risky but I think Allen has a special ability to read the passing lanes, sometimes it helps a lot and sometimes it can hurt the 76ers in the half court defense. But most of the time I'm letting AI gamble for those steals because they usually lead to big plays for the 76ers in the transition game. Trust me, when the 76ers get steals and create turnovers they are a very dangerous team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually it's true, steals doesn't measure how good a defender you are. You can gamble a lot and get 2 steals a game, but on the other 4 times you miss, allow for easy penetration, and maybe allow 2 baskets. That's not playing good defense. </div> I've been saying this but they still don't understand that defense isn't about how many steals you get. It's about shutting down your man. I would prefer a player who gets 0 steals but limits his man to 10 points then somebody who gets 3 steals and allows their man to drop 20 on them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Laker Fan, if what you're saying is true, then there is no possible way to "measure" a player's defense. If rebounds and steals as stats don't attribute to defense, then there's really no possible ways to debate about Iverson's defense. I doubt you watch too many Sixers games, but if you do, you would actually find that you are underrating Iverson's defense against his man. </div> There is a way to measure defense. That is the drop in the regular PPG for the player you are gaurding when they play against you. This means, not allowing the opposition player to score as many points. If you search on google, for the match-ups where Allen Iverson vs. "X," you will see what I mean. He doesn't shut down his man. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And actually, I was trying to compare Garnett to Iverson. From your list, you said that Garnett was a superstar, compared to Iverson who was borderline- when in actuality they are very alike. Neither has won a championship and both have brought their team to their conference finals (even though Garnett had a better supporting cast).</div> Please read my post fully. In a later post, I said this: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">As you said, its all about how good you are. So, lets scrap my ideas of you having to win a championship and lets judge on how good you are,</div> Please read all posts as you are wasting my time with me having to explain that it is a fundemental rule that you read all posts before posting. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Its a way of measuring defense for a guard. Rebounding and blocks is kind of a way of showing defense for powerforwards or centers. Really, what other way can you give me defense in stats or numbers?</div> The stats don't fully decide on how good of a player you are. They do, but only to a certain extent. Just because there isn't a stat for "shutting down your man," it doesn't mean it isn't important. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What has Kobe done his whole career? </div> Won 3 titles. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">and look at your Lakers now, look how good they played when Kobe was the man.</div> 1 season doesn't mean he's a bad leader. Just as one good season AI had doesn't mean he's a franchise player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe might as well sign a shoe deal with Reebok to feel what it's like. </div> What does Reebok have to do with anything? Do I suspect a little jealousy that Kobe is with Nike? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">AI wouldn't have drove Shaq off of his team to be the man.</div> AI shoots more than Kobe, so Shaq would have gotten more angrier and left LA quicker. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now look at him, it isn't so easy being the teams best player and sole provider,</div> Kobe can be a leader as he proved with his High School. They went roughly 33-3 when he took over and they won the State Championship. I know High School is nothing compared to the NBA but it does prove that Kobe is not a bad leader. MJ didn't win staight away, it took Shaq roughly 7 years to win something and he was a leader all the time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anybody who can be a top 10 player in the league, sell tons of merchandise, be a perennial all star, </div> If selling merchandise was anything to go by, Tim Duncan wouldn't be a superstar and LeBron and AI would be better because they sell more merchandise. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That’s not my point, when it comes down to it AI has been the best scorer in the game for the past 5-6 seasons. There is a stat out there that proves it for me; he averages the most ppg in that amount of time like I said around 5-7 seasons. More than Kobe, Shaq, Carter, Pierce. All of those guys you can think of as top scorers.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like who? maybe Ray allen or an upcoming superstar, but scoring 30 a game, is not an easy feat. </div> Like I said, I could name 30+ player's that would score 30+ points a game if they took as many shots as AI did. I'm just taking this list athat bkbballer16 made earlier as the stars. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe Timmy T Mac Peja Kevin Amare Nash Manu Bibby Dirk VC Shaq D Wade Francis Pierce Lebron Kidd Jefferson Rasheed Rip Big Ben CWebb Jermaine Artest Chauncey</div> This is just a starters list made without thinking. I could go on and add my own players to that list. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes, gambling for steals is risky but I think Allen has a special ability to read the passing lanes, sometimes it helps a lot and sometimes it can hurt the 76ers in the half court defense. But most of the time I'm letting AI gamble for those steals because they usually lead to big plays for the 76ers in the transition game. </div> Sorry but no, most of the time he gambles the other team leads to having a big play.
Lakersfan you're saying Richard Jefferson, CWebb, and Ginobili are all stars over Allen Iverson??? These players may be stars but if you don't consider AI a star than how can you consider them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lakersfan you're saying Richard Jefferson, CWebb, and Ginobili are all stars over Allen Iverson??? These players may be stars but if you don't consider AI a star than how can you consider them. </div> No those are the guys he said would be averaging more than 30 points if they took as many shots as Iverson did. Read. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I've been saying this but they still don't understand that defense isn't about how many steals you get. It's about shutting down your man. I would prefer a player who gets 0 steals but limits his man to 10 points then somebody who gets 3 steals and allows their man to drop 20 on them. The stats don't fully decide on how good of a player you are. They do, but only to a certain extent. Just because there isn't a stat for "shutting down your man," it doesn't mean it isn't important.</div> I'm really interested on what you have to say to the fact that Garnett, a superstar by your standards, cannot "shutdown" a fellow superstar such as Duncan, like you said every superstar should be able to. In fact, the comment that I made about comparing Garnett and Iverson? I was just summing everything up for you because of that one post you made. Don't make assumptions on whether or not I read your post. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Sorry but no, most of the time he gambles the other team leads to having a big play.</div> And you would know this how? How many Sixers games have you watched to make an educated guess on this topic? I can name several instances where Iverson stole the ball which resulted in Philadelphia getting an easy two points. In fact, heres two- 1. Iverson steals the ball from Chauncey Billups, almost turns over the ball, but saves it from out of bounds and lobs it to Iguodala for a reverse dunk on the break away. 2. With a couple seconds left on the clock in a tight game against Philadelphia, Washington passes the ball in bounds to Gilbert Arenas, but Iverson is there and knocks the ball away and goes after it to make it an easy two points, shutting the Wizard's hopes of winning away. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, I could name 30+ player's that would score 30+ points a game if they took as many shots as AI did.</div> There's a reason why Iverson has to take as many shots as he does. Because for almost all of his career, he was the only option on the team. All of the guys that bkbballer16 listed had at least one other guy on the team the would defer attention away from them so that they would have easy shots. Iverson on the other hand, has all the attention directed at him, he's practically double teamed from the start. All the defense is focused on him. Thats why its not as easy as you think to throw up that many shots and still get thirty plus points.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Lakersfan you're saying Richard Jefferson, CWebb, and Ginobili are all stars over Allen Iverson??? These players may be stars but if you don't consider AI a star than how can you consider them. </div> As AzxnBaller said, read the posts above. I was making a reference to who would score 30+ points a game if they took as many shots as Iverson. Read the posts above you before you post. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm really interested on what you have to say to the fact that Garnett, a superstar by your standards, cannot "shutdown" a fellow superstar such as Duncan, like you said every superstar should be able to. In fact, the comment that I made about comparing Garnett and Iverson? I was just summing everything up for you because of that one post you made. Don't make assumptions on whether or not I read your post. </div> Garnett has done in the past. When Duncan has played Garnett his stats have dropped by quite a bit, more then once infact so it wasn't a fluke. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">And you would know this how? How many Sixers games have you watched to make an educated guess on this topic? </div> You are so convincing by questioning by knowledge of 76'ers games. Please, stay on topic, you make your post seem like it was written by a "mark." <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1. Iverson steals the ball from Chauncey Billups, almost turns over the ball, but saves it from out of bounds and lobs it to Iguodala for a reverse dunk on the break away. 2. With a couple seconds left on the clock in a tight game against Philadelphia, Washington passes the ball in bounds to Gilbert Arenas, but Iverson is there and knocks the ball away and goes after it to make it an easy two points, shutting the Wizard's hopes of winning away.</div> Wow, a whole two occasions! Because it happened twice, it means it happens all the time! I bet you can't think of at least 40 times last season that this happened. Seeing as you watch so many 76'ers games, it would be interesting to see if you could think of all those times. If you have trouble, search it up on the net, I'm sure you'll find notes on the games which could help. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There's a reason why Iverson has to take as many shots as he does. Because for almost all of his career, he was the only option on the team.</div> Then as he is meant to take them shots, you shouldn't give him credit for it as he is given orders to do so. You give him credit for taking orders? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">he's practically double teamed from the start. </div> Are you trying to tell me he's the only player that's double teamed from the start in the NBA? There are so many more players that are double and sometimes triple teamed. I'm not blaming Allen for taking the orders, I'm just saying that if other people took that many shots, they would also get 30+ points. Also, if he is double or triple teamed, why doesn't he pass up to the person who has the open look for the shot. Don't say they always miss because there are players on the 76'ers team with better FG% then Iverson.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Won 3 titles.</div> Who was the more dominant superstar of that team? Certainly not Kobe. I believe Shaq won the three titles, Kobes was just there to help. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1 season doesn't mean he's a bad leader. Just as one good season AI had doesn't mean he's a franchise player.</div> 2001 was AI's breakout year, leading the league in scoring for the second time, winning All Star MVP, season MVP and more awards than even his rookie year. Since when did AI have one good year? He's been a consistent starter on the All Star team since 2000, and plays with heart every night. He doesn't tire out at the end of seasons despite always being at or near the top of the MPG list. This season does actually prove that Kobe's a bad leader. He doesn't have the social skill to relate to his teammates. He sits on the back of the team plane with his headphones on, he spends most of his free time with his wife. He has rivalries with RAllen, Iverson, Shaq, and countless other players because he just doesn't get it. Seriously, who is going to hate Shaq? Barkeley, who swung fists at him, is laughing along with Shaqqy and teasing him and such. He may be a leader and have respect on the court, but that's not the case off the hardwood. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What does Reebok have to do with anything? Do I suspect a little jealousy that Kobe is with Nike?</div> wtf. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> AI shoots more than Kobe, so Shaq would have gotten more angrier and left LA quicker.</div> How do you know this is true, Shaq is emotional, but when have you seen him actually lose control. AI has a tremendous respect for Shaq and vice versa (remember Shaq givin AI props in the All Star game in 2004?), and AI would instantly realize who's team it is, unlike Kobe, who's unwavering confidence caused the most dominant center in generations to leave. AI would have adjusted to becoming second option and picked up in an area where the team would've needed it, STL's and AST's. Don't make Shaq out to someone he isn't, when you clearly can't read his personality. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe can be a leader as he proved with his High School. They went roughly 33-3 when he took over and they won the State Championship. I know High School is nothing compared to the NBA but it does prove that Kobe is not a bad leader. MJ didn't win staight away, it took Shaq roughly 7 years to win something and he was a leader all the time.</div> On the court. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If selling merchandise was anything to go by, Tim Duncan wouldn't be a superstar and LeBron and AI would be better because they sell more merchandise. </div> I agree, this was stupid. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, I could name 30+ player's that would score 30+ points a game if they took as many shots as AI did. </div> There is no way Peja, Nash, Manu, Bibby, Jefferson, Kidd, Rasheed, Rip, BWallace (wtf?) CWebb, Artest, or Chauncy would average 30 a night. Artest and Big Ben are defensive players, so you didn't even look the list over, CWebb and Rasheed are in their declining years, Peja doesn't have the all around skills necessary to drop 30 a night, Manu Bibby Kidd Chauncy Jefferson and Rip just are not big time scorers like that. Taking all those shots every game is tiresome, and their efficiency would surely drop, even in shooters like Rip, who hit snags during the season and have to get their stroke back. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Garnett has done in the past. When Duncan has played Garnett his stats have dropped by quite a bit, more then once infact so it wasn't a fluke. </div> I'll quote you on the answer to this "Wow, a whole two occasions! Because it happened twice, it means it happens all the time!" <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are so convincing by questioning by knowledge of 76'ers games. Please, stay on topic, you make your post seem like it was written by a "mark." </div> Give him a break, you honestly make it seem like you don't watch Iverson, unless he's playing against Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Then as he is meant to take them shots, you shouldn't give him credit for it as he is given orders to do so. You give him credit for taking orders?</div> Simply: yes, it's not like AI is just strolling around shooting jumpers. He's beating his man off the dribble almost every time, not a very easy thing to do when you're his size, even at his speeds..it's very tiring (I would know, I have the same problems). He doesn't take a lot of straight up jumpers either, he's almost always moving, or fading, or leaning, it's ridiculous. What player doesn't take orders? Are you saying Kobe would flat out ignore Philly Jackson, and just take things into his own hands? Cuz then Phil was right saying how Mr. Bryant is 'uncoachable'. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you trying to tell me he's the only player that's double teamed from the start in the NBA? There are so many more players that are double and sometimes triple teamed. I'm not blaming Allen for taking the orders, I'm just saying that if other people took that many shots, they would also get 30+ points. Also, if he is double or triple teamed, why doesn't he pass up to the person who has the open look for the shot. Don't say they always miss because there are players on the 76'ers team with better FG% then Iverson.</div> When you're 6' 165 and you're getting double teamed by a 6'3" Tinsely and 6'8" Stephen Jackson, you tell me how easy it is to drop 30. They often have a top defender guarding him too, which goes to show how resilient Iverson is. About the passing? Let's think, the opposing coach is not stupid, so he'll obviously have Korver covered while Iverson is D-teamed, and seeing as how McKie/Iguodala aren't much of scorers there isn't much Iverson can do, except do what he's been doing his entire career..finding some hidden way to score. I know, lengthy...but get over it.
