<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">team skill does matter, especially when you're trying to say that becuase they are the best team they should get the MVP award. Try to be consistent here son. Anyways when looking for the MVP you have to look for a player thats lead his team to being successful. Kobe Bryant for example has a team of scrubs and he's tied for the 7th seed. That means something. I'm sorry but just because Detroit is the best team doesnt mean that one of thier players has to be the MVP. They are the best team because they have the best starting lineup in the NBA, solid role players off the bench and a great system/coach....not because they have Billups.</div> I forgot to add this, but I'm not a big fan of the having a good team argument agaisnt Billups. While it is true, didn't Nash last season win the MVP with teammates that had this to say for themselves: 2 All-NBA Team Members [Marion and Amare] 2 All-Stars [Marion and Amare] 1 Capable All-Star [Joe Johnson] 2 Top 20 players [Marion and Amare] Those things did not go against Nash last season, so why should they go against Billups who while having "All-Stars" does not have the same kind of All-Star presence. Marion and Amare are more talented players than Ben and Rasheed. Rip Hamilton is better than Joe Johnson, but not by very much. The Pistons have on arguably Top 20 guy in Ben Wallace, and no other, and Ben is probably the only one that will make an All-NBA team outside of Billups. Magic had an All-Star team when he won, Jordan had Pippen, Grant etc when he won. Now I know those are extreme examples, because we can't compare Billups' impact to Jordan, but it's not the best argument.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I forgot to add this, but I'm not a big fan of the having a good team argument agaisnt Billups. While it is true, didn't Nash last season win the MVP with teammates that had this to say for themselves: 2 All-NBA Team Members [Marion and Amare] 2 All-Stars [Marion and Amare] 1 Capable All-Star [Joe Johnson] 2 Top 20 players [Marion and Amare] Those things did not go against Nash last season, so why should they go against Billups who while having "All-Stars" does not have the same kind of All-Star presence. Marion and Amare are more talented players than Ben and Rasheed. Rip Hamilton is better than Joe Johnson, but not by very much. The Pistons have on arguably Top 20 guy in Ben Wallace, and no other, and Ben is probably the only one that will make an All-NBA team outside of Billups. Magic had an All-Star team when he won, Jordan had Pippen, Grant etc when he won. Now I know those are extreme examples, because we can't compare Billups' impact to Jordan, but it's not the best argument.</div> In regards to Nash winning the MVP last year i agree...he did lead the team to a very successful regular season but he had a heck of a team backing him up. Joe Johnson was a year older and better, same with Amare, and they also added Qrich to the already potent offense. This year though I feel like Nash has earned it, having 2 new starting linemates at the beginning of the year, then loosing one of them AND amare forcing the team to play a former backup pg at the 5. Billups is a great player on a great team...but he's not an MVP.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting fitch4delk00:</div><div class="quote_post">I think billups deserves it but with all the team changes that phoenix went through there gonna give it to nash. Its easier 4 nash to get those numbers in a fast based game, while billups does it at a slowed downed based. I hope this comes into play when they do the voting.</div> its Kobe or Nash... i dunno wat u were thinking wen u said billups... i like billups but he's not even close.. u gotta put nash, kobe, lebron, brand and dirk deserve it more then him... look at his teammates!!! if you put nash in detroit they'll be a muchh better team... but if put billups in phonix they wont even make the playoff
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr. Taz:</div><div class="quote_post">its Kobe or Nash... i dunno wat u were thinking wen u said billups... i like billups but he's not even close.. u gotta put nash, kobe, lebron, brand and dirk deserve it more then him... look at his teammates!!! if you put nash in detroit they'll be a muchh better team... but if put billups in phonix they wont even make the playoff</div> You know, for once I'd actually like to see some one actually give a <u>decent</u> reason as to why Billups doesnt deserve the MVP award. This "he has a good team around him" argument is as weak as piss, if you look at every M.V.P winner in the history of the NBA, not one of them wasnt playing with a good team around them, so drop it already. As for the second part of your post, no one knows that until it happens, so until it does, that has no relevence to anything at all.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, for once I'd actually like to see some one actually give a <u>decent</u> reason as to why Billups doesnt deserve the MVP award. This "he has a good team around him" argument is as weak as piss, if you look at every M.V.P winner in the history of the NBA, not one of them wasnt playing with a good team around them, so drop it already. As for the second part of your post, no one knows that until it happens, so until it does, that has no relevence to anything at all.</div> offcourse you u want billups to be M.V.P and i dont blame u... ur a pistons fan. hey ima rockets fan i want yao ming to be M.V.P... every guy here would like to see he's team best player M.V.P!!!! look man... im not taking anything a way from billups... he is A GREAT PLAYER and pistons is a very good team and they might win it all... but you just cant put billups in the same level with Kobe and Nash and Lebron... its just not right.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr. Taz:</div><div class="quote_post">offcourse you u want billups to be M.V.P and i dont blame u... ur a pistons fan. hey ima rockets fan i want yao ming to be M.V.P... every guy here would like to see he's team best player M.V.P!!!! look man... im not taking anything a way from billups... he is A GREAT PLAYER and pistons is a very good team and the might wen it all... but you just cant put billups in the same level with Kobe and Nash and Lebron... its just not right. </div> lol, nice to see you elude my post completley. I dont want Billups to win the M.V.P because I'm a Pistons fan, I want him to win it because he deserves it. Last year Steve Nash deserved it, the year before that Kevin Garnett deserved it. Him being on my favourite team has nothing to do with it, and if I really wanted one of the Pistons to win the award, it would be Ben Wallace, but I dont want him to win it, because he doesnt deserve to (this season atleast). Why cant you put Billups on the same level as Nash? Especially when they average very similar numbers, Billups does the same job for his team that Nash does for his, Billups out played Nash in both their games this season, Billups is a better defender, Billups is more efficient than Nash and Billup's team has a 13 game win advantage over Nash's team. Not to mention that before last season no one would have ever put Nash in the race for an M.V.P award.
If i remember this correctly if nash just keep it up for the final run of the week he will be like the 4th player or something to ever have 50%FG, 40% 3pt%, 90% FT in a season in NBA history not to mention nash will win assist leader this year with a less superior supporting cast this year chauncy is good and underrated but media hype will give it to nash my take is that they are neck to neck billups got better players around him, but at the same time he lead his team with NBA leading records also hitting huge shots for detroit nash? well...his supporting cast this year is inferior to last year's and he made all of them better, especially diaw and barbosa at the same time they proved people wrong that without amare they can still win loads of games...his only disadvantage is that he won before who will win? both deserve it (but billups deserve it more) but nash will win
I don't think Billups should win it, and its because of the "weak as piss" arguement. Nash had a good cast but nowhere near as good as Billups currently. Billups has so many people to spread the floor and like Barkley said Billups isn't as important to that chemistry as most think. Nash should win it especially by keeping his team afloat by losing so many players and having to adjust as much as he has. Kobe is another who I think should win it. He has carried his team offensively through this season its crazy. Without Kobe that team would be drastically different. Without Nash that team would be drastically different. Without Billups however they still would be contenders.
<u>since</u> aquiring Billups we have had 5 back to back 50+ win seasons. You cant base an arguement off "would" or "could". No one can prove that the Lakers would be worse off without Kobe, no one can prove the suns would be worse off without Nash, no one can prove Detroit would be the same without Billups, until either one of 2 things happens, they're either injured for a prolonged amount of time, or they get traded. Until that happens, dont bring "would" up. How anyone can say "Billups isnt that important to Detroit's chemistry" is just plain retarded. Our offense runs through Billups, he is our leading scorer, he's our leading 'assister', he is a key part in our defensive prowess, how that doesnt make him that important to the team is beyond me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post"><u>since</u> aquiring Billups we have had 5 back to back 50+ win seasons. You cant base an arguement off "would" or "could". No one can prove that the Lakers would be worse off without Kobe, no one can prove the suns would be worse off without Nash, no one can prove Detroit would be the same without Billups, until either one of 2 things happens, they're either injured for a prolonged amount of time, or they get traded. Until that happens, dont bring "would" up. How anyone can say "Billups isnt that important to Detroit's chemistry" is just plain retarded. Our offense runs through Billups, he is our leading scorer, he's our leading 'assister', he is a key part in our defensive prowess, how that doesnt make him that important to the team is beyond me.</div> Look at it like this. Look at the rosters, lineups, and rotations as is. Without Kobe the lakers would be doing vastly worse. When Kobe's out they lose their games I don't know the statistics but I do know its true. Look at the Suns as is. Without Nash they would lose a lot. He is the guy that has picked up the slack and done everything with the injuries and main guys out. Without him it is probably a 99% truth that they would not be where they were without Amare, and Thomas. He gives them their open looks and everything. Ask either fans and they will agree, without Kobe and Nash those two teams would be drastically different. Look at Billups. The Orlando game they were missing Ben since he didn't want to come back in, lost Rasheed due to back spasms, and Rip was at a funeral. Nash adjusted to his change and made due with what little he had. Billups on the other hand wasn't a difference maker without his supporting cast. Detroit lost to a team under .500 without their "supporting cast". Now if Billups makes his teamates better than Nash as the MVP arguement goes why couldn't he win? Nash had lost his cast and still made/makes his team better. This is why Nash and not Billups should get it. I still however want Kobe to win it
I'll say it again, you cant prove that, it hasnt happened, so until it does, "would" is not a word that should be used in an argument to determine who the M.V.P is. I could easily say "The Spurs would'nt be as good as they are without Tim Duncan", but it hasnt happened yet, so no one knows whether that is true or not. You're basing your whole MVP argument off hear say and possibilty. LMAO, so one loss means Billups doesnt deserve to be considered an MVP? He was still our best player that game, with 25 Points, 2 Rebounds, 8 Assists, 2 Steals, it isnt his fault if the rest of the team couldnt get their act together that game. Should we criticize Steve Nash's whole season over this one game?: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=...?gid=2006032717
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting NTC187:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll say it again, you cant prove that, it hasnt happened, so until it does, "would" is not a word that should be used in an argument to determine who the M.V.P is. I could easily say "The Spurs would'nt be as good as they are without Tim Duncan", but it hasnt happened yet, so no one knows whether that is true or not. You're basing your whole MVP argument off hear say and possibilty. LMAO, so one loss means Billups doesnt deserve to be considered an MVP? He was still our best player that game, with 25 Points, 2 Rebounds, 8 Assists, 2 Steals, it isnt his fault if the rest of the team couldnt get their act together that game. Should we criticize Steve Nash's whole season over this one game?: http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/boxscore;_ylt=...?gid=2006032717</div> your missing the point with the one game thing. I'm saying without the supporting cast he didn't pull through. A true MVP like Nash would have made his teamates better and like you said <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> it isnt his fault if the rest of the team couldnt get their act together that game.</div> further fueling my arguement. If he can't get his teamates together like Nash does then why does he deserve it? Nash makes people around him better but to me Billups doesn't and you even proved to me that he doesn't. Should we criticize him over that one game? No but it does show that without the supporting cast he isn't MVP material. Nash on the other hand lost his guys and is still keeping his people in the playoff race and has a respectable record in the west. Nonetheless I still hope Kobe wins the MVP . Also my what if has plenty to back it up. Look at Phoenix w/o Nash and then look at Phoenix with Nash. Big difference. Look at games with Kobe and look at games without Kobe. Once again Big difference
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Franchise4Ever:</div><div class="quote_post">your missing the point with the one game thing. I'm saying without the supporting cast he didn't pull through. A true MVP like Nash would have made his teamates better and like you said further fueling my arguement. If he can't get his teamates together like Nash does then why does he deserve it? Nash makes people around him better but to me Billups doesn't and you even proved to me that he doesn't. Should we criticize him over that one game? No but it does show that without the supporting cast he isn't MVP material. Nash on the other hand lost his guys and is still keeping his people in the playoff race and has a respectable record in the west. Nonetheless I still hope Kobe wins the MVP . Also my what if has plenty to back it up. Look at Phoenix w/o Nash and then look at Phoenix with Nash. Big difference. Look at games with Kobe and look at games without Kobe. Once again Big difference</div> No you're missing the point, it was ONE game, you cant seriously sit there and base the M.V.P just off one game out of 82 on the season. But since you brought it up, Lets have a closer look at that game: - Chauncey Billups put up what any coach would consider great numbers for a PG, 25 Points, 3 Rebounds, 8 Assists, 2 Steals. I think its fair to say he did his part for the team that game. - At half time, Detroit were down by <u>15</u> points. They lost the game by <u>2</u> points after Billups helped bring Detroit back. - Tony Delk was at the line with somthing like 0.7 seconds left, but he missed both of the free throws that would've tied us the game, then we had a second chance to tie when Antonio McDyess missed a tip in. Now please point out to me how this is Billup's fault? Billups isnt a babysitter. If the rest of the team isnt willing to perform to their full potenial, or if they make stupid mistakes such as the 2 listed above, then thats on them, not Billups. Lets not even mention that its been well documented that Detroit has one of the worst bench's in the league. You keep saying Billups had no usual supporting cast around him that game, well I dont know which game you watched that day, but it wasnt the Detroit/Orlando one, thats for sure. Tayshaun Prince played <u>36 Minutes</u>, Rasheed Wallace played <u>26 Minutes</u>, Ben Wallace played <u>30 Minutes</u> and Chauncey Billups played <u>37 Minutes</u>. The only guy we missed that game was Rip, but Delk filled his shoes nicely with 18 Points, 3 Rebounds, 2 Assists in <u>34 Minutes</u>. Yeah you're right, big difference for Phoenix without Nash, I mean the one game they lost this season without Nash playing, was to the Spurs, the defending NBA champions, it's likely that game would've been lost with or without Nash anyway. You can also say how Phoenix become much better once Nash arrived, which is true, but I'll just point out the fact that Stephon Marbury was running the point before Nash, now I'll just point out N.Y's current record, and you can work the rest out for yourself.
I definately disagree with this: "Without Billups however they still would be contenders" How in the world would they be contenders without a good PG? Without Billups they're at best a playoff team that get's knocked out in the first round. They don't have the guard depth to just not have him, Lindsey Hunter is the PG off the bench.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hustler:</div><div class="quote_post">I'd quit the game of basketball if Kobe wins it, that's how far i go.</div> Thats a bit too much hate dont you think?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I definately disagree with this: "Without Billups however they still would be contenders" How in the world would they be contenders without a good PG? Without Billups they're at best a playoff team that get's knocked out in the first round. They don't have the guard depth to just not have him, Lindsey Hunter is the PG off the bench.</div> Finally some one with some sense, lol.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I definately disagree with this: "Without Billups however they still would be contenders" How in the world would they be contenders without a good PG? Without Billups they're at best a playoff team that get's knocked out in the first round. They don't have the guard depth to just not have him, Lindsey Hunter is the PG off the bench.</div> Believe it or not Billups could be replaced with a different point guard. He is a great assest to the team but he isn't as giant a factor as most think. So what if he is averaging X stats Marbury gets X statsas well but he isn't winning games. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No you're missing the point, it was ONE game, you cant seriously sit there and base the M.V.P just off one game out of 82 on the season. But since you brought it up, Lets have a closer look at that game:</div> Its more or less a look into the what if's of Detroit. He didn't have the 100% of his guys because Rasheed left because of back spasms, when Ben Wallace got benched he didn't want to go back in, and Rip was at a funeral. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">- Chauncey Billups put up what any coach would consider great numbers for a PG, 25 Points, 3 Rebounds, 8 Assists, 2 Steals. I think its fair to say he did his part for the team that game.</div> Stephon Marbury averages these numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Billups isnt a babysitter. If the rest of the team isnt willing to perform to their full potenial, or if they make stupid mistakes such as the 2 listed above, then thats on them, not Billups</div> Once again Stephon Marbury comes to mind. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can also say how Phoenix become much better once Nash arrived, which is true, but I'll just point out the fact that Stephon Marbury was running the point before Nash, now I'll just point out N.Y's current record, and you can work the rest out for yourself.</div> I can use the same defense that you used for Billups, but but but Marbury does his job its not his fault his teamates don't come through......puh pleaase. Btw FYI I don't like Marbury just using him as a key example. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now please point out to me how this is Billup's fault?</div> He will get the blame for his teamates doing bad because he is the floor general. He is the leader he is the one that has to be there day in and day out making his teamates better by giving them excellent looks, "easy points", etc. just like Nash does. This is Billups fault for the same reason it would be LeBron, Kobe, and Nash's fault if their teamate missed the game winner. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A good reason? 19 and 8 arent MVP numbers. It could happen if, like Nash last year, that player lead his team to to a place they otherwise couldnt of gone. Its tough to say that he's taking his team to the playoffs/finals/championship because with the quality of team they have they could possibly do it without him. Put Billups on the Cavs, Mavs or Lakers instead of Dirk, Lebron and Kobe....could you see those teams being anywhere near as good? Would a team of Mihm Kwame Odem Smush Parker and Billups make the 7th seed in the west? No. If you were the GM of a new expansion team and you wanted to win THAT season, striaght out of the box, would you take Billups over Kobe, Lebron, Dirk, Nash? No. Billups is a very good player on a very good team, but he's not an MVP.</div> Exactly
