I see no reason to change my view that there is no anguish, despair, betrayal or suffering that Brian will not dismiss from his holy mountaintop of sinless sanctimonious purity. Maris, according to both legal and medical studies, males abuse children more than women do. I surely don't say women never do, but it does seem to be more common from males. And all I actually said was that there were, to date, no publicized cases of a woman building a career on homophobia secretly shacking up with young girls or other women. I would not be astonished if some existed, just not currently known. I have no problem at all with any private consensual sex of any variety they chose between adults. But watch the video. A young man, who clearly grew up with no father or father figure, a pastor becomes his de facto father, he is told he has to do whatever his "father" says. He is clearly a troubled young man desperate for a father's approval. How anyone, except Brian, can call this consensual sex between adults, is incomprehensible. Scratch that, it is comprehensible. For those who want to comfort the comfortable and afflict the afflicted. For those who look at tragedy and see blame. The Brians of 2000 years ago, if you believe their own legends, no doubt when asked isn't it horrible to subject a human to a terrible death by crucifixion, would say this man made choices. He could have followed a respectable trade as a carpenter, but instead chose to preach seditious doctrines, even after being warned, and chose to not marry and to hang out with thieves, beggars, and prostitutes. He has only himself to blame. Incidentally, the Christian bible does not contain any quote allegedly from Jesus on gays, gay marriage, abortion. Some on divorce. A lot about feeding the hungry and loving thy neighbor. Maybe Brian could, instead of writing long screeds about how sinful everyone else is, feed the hungry?
You've been calling me out this entire thread for lack of compassion and "writing long screeds about how sinful everyone else is" when you're missing two key points. 1) I don't care a single whit how sinful you are or aren't. that's between you and God. And if you choose not to believe in Him for whatever reason, more power to you. And I can't think of a single time this thread when I've written a "long screed about how sinful everyone else is". I've written plenty about my own sin, my need for forgiveness, my trust that the punishment I've earned has been taken care of. I've pointed out the irony and the hypocrisy of non-Christian people who believe in "what goes on in my bedroom is my business" lashing out against a man who has allegedly committed only the legal acts of adultery and homosexual intercourse. Allegedly. 2) Maybe you could read some of my posts and figure out if I still feel I'm on a holy mountaintop of sinless sanctimonious purity. It seems as if you've read and comprehended them about as fully as you've read your Old King James Bible. Yet you feel qualified not only to cast aspersions on Christians for their lifestyle, but to deliberately twist comments in order to keep up with your not-carefully-crafted meme of "compassion rules! You drool! Pharisee!". Maybe those attempting to insult me could, instead of writing long screeds twisting issues and not answering rebuttal questions, read what's been written? http://sportstwo.com/threads/144904-Those-Whacky-Christians-Volume-3?p=2086871 Post 5 http://sportstwo.com/threads/147426-Any-of-you-Republicans-Good-Christians/page2?highlight=charity Post 27 (especially the end) http://sportstwo.com/threads/161586-So-what-would-they-say-to-Mary?p=2353648&viewfull=1 End of Post 39 http://sportstwo.com/threads/162069-Grain-Fed-vs.-Grass-Fed-Beef Post 22 just off the top of my head...
I haven't read the thread, but I guess I just think there are far bigger abuses to stop than sexual ones. Like torture, or killing a million Iraqis, etc. I can think of many people more monstrous than this minister, who kill people or do the planning--intelligence, police, military, think tanks, and the haters who support them. If we are to stop sexual abuses, we can start with the one that 99% of us suffer---not enough sex. Create a culture of true sexual freedom for the 99% who get too little, and THEN I'll worry about the 1% who get too much sex pushed onto them. (I worked in sales for awhile and you wouldn't believe how many middle aged widowed and divorced female homeowners there are, eager to talk to a sales guy. It seemed about a third of all homeowners, though that can't be true.) Also, when I was 17, I didn't know of anyone who could be talked into sex unless he or she wanted it (badly). Beginning about age 10, I and everyone else would have kicked the person in the shins and run away. Depending upon how religious you were, you changed from "no" to "yes" somewhere during the years aged 14 to 18. I don't know whether I'm on track with this thread, or off on a tangent, because I only read about 4 posts. Sorry if it's off.
You probably shouldn't give opinions until you improve your reading comprehension. It's never a debate with BrianfromWA. I've been asking him the same question forever it seems, and he refuses to answer every time. I'd say he's in Checkmate.
Sorry, I thought we were past that point. I'll reiterate. The Supreme Court has decided that if you are operating in accordance with lawful orders and international laws of war, it doesn't matter what YOU think, it's not murder. Good thing your comprehension of legal proceedings is overruled by US Code and international law. I'm pretty sure that, as a member of a uniformed, state-sponsored force operating under international law and legal orders, I have both qualified as a "lawful combatant" and "possess a combatant's privilege to kill". And since I'm NOT a hypocrite, I won't take the government's money and training and then decline to serve when sent somewhere (see 1Lt. Watada and LT Weiner, among others) unpleasant, unpopular or dangerous. Are we clear now, or do you still have fallacies you'd like corrected? And I'm reasonably certain that I've spent more time, thought and prayer ensuring that my choices reconciled with my faith than you have in tossing around ill-conceived, incorrect and inappropriate "checkmate" allegations.
Ah, so you are now putting the Supreme Court above your god's directives! Pretty sure that's a major sin. And odd, since the court protects what you call fornicators, abortion, smut... But as a christain, any port (excuse) in a storm. eh? And again, you have ducked my simple question. Claim to be a christain, but ready to commit the ultimate sin for money you have already accepted and spent. How do you look in the mirror?
Food for thought: http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance69.html http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance87.html http://www.lewrockwell.com/vance/vance113.html
you are so reaching right now. At what point do you recognize that you are not going to piss me off, and you're not going to get your convoluted logic to work? Assuming you are correct, and I am committing both a "major sin" (you're not...God specifically says we're supposed to follow the directives and laws of governments He's appointed over us) and putting the Supreme Court over God's directive (again, I'm not, but you don't seem to want to get that), the great thing about Christianity is that we're told that we're all sinners and deserve death and eternal separation...but the forgiveness that comes from repentance and acceptance of Jesus as your Savior who's already taken the punishment. So I'm set, and don't have to worry about any logic puzzles you attempt to come up with. BTW, with your vast understanding of the Christian faith and doctrine, can you explain since when is ANYTHING the "ultimate sin"? Where do you get your logic from? Normally when you troll you're a little more lucid than this... In the mirror I look like a forgiven and justified child of God, on my way to sanctification and glorification. I invite you to join me. It's quite freeing.
It's sad that you go to that grocery store for your thought food. The same Francis Wayland that held to the veracity of every word of the Bible, but in Vance's quote of him: He doesn't talk about it from a spiritual aspect, he talks about it from an economic one. And Vance twists that into a strawman that he convincingly (to you it seems) beats up on Christians who are in the military about. He doesn't talk about the spiritual aspect, other than to say it's "contrary to the will of God" with no proof texts. I can at least show you God in multiple places, in multiple forms, using warriors and "mighty men" as instruments of His justice. One of the more prominent conversions in the Acts was the Roman Centurion (what would today be an Army Company Commander or Navy Department Head or so) Cornelius. Unlike the rich young ruler, who Jesus told to give all of his money away before he could follow Jesus (a trial of if he loved money more than trusting in Jesus), the Gentile Soldier Cornelius wasn't told to repent of his military ways...wasn't told to stop being a hypocritical murderer...wasn't told to become a strict pacifist and give up his rank and job in order to follow Christ. He just had to follow Christ. There's one biblical example. Where's yours?
I'm not trying to anger you at all. I'm attempting to understand how someone who I feel is sincere in their belief that they are following the christian faith can be willing to kill complete strangers simply on some other mortal's order. In that instance, what would Jesus do? I think we both know the answer to that one. While you claim no need for personal responsibility for your actions (since Jesus has your back), that's a heavily edited and drastically liberal interpretation of "god's word". I think for starters you should look up the definition of repentance. It doesn't mean to continue sinning. You're not as set as you think you are.
to answer your first question, God has appointed the rulers over me. He then tells me that I'm supposed to obey them, even if it comes at personal cost. Including being a slave in roman times, being a slaveowner in roman times, being a centurion, etc. Read again the stories of the Centurion in Matthew 8 and Cornelius in Acts 10 and 11. Those aren't the only examples. Edit: Your last two lines bring up Romans 6. I am as set as I think I am, or it doesn't matter. I believe Door #1, because that's what my God has promised me.
Now you're being silly. It's not spelled out that he had to give those heinous acts up because it's a given, taken for granted, in order to "follow christ". To "follow christ" is to follow his teachings. It doesn't mean to literally tail him all over the place.
Hitler's a better example. According to you, god appointed Hitler to rule over Germans. So the Nazis were all good christians while they tortured children and made lampshades from human skin. And they're all happily in heaven right now. And this is what you get from reading the bible.
It's a given, taken for granted, that you can't protect people? That you can't be used as an instrument of God's justice? That you can't take up arms to do the will of God? His main teachings are "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbor as yourself". He then stresses the need for everyone to understand their need for Him, because one single sin means you can no longer spend eternity in the presence of the Holy and Just God. Except--those who believe that the death and punishment that a perfect Jesus bore on the cross of Calvary was sufficient to atone for the sins of those who believe it did. I frequently say (in real life and on here) that I'm the worst sinner I know, because I know my heart. I know when I've violated those things in the Sermon on the Mount that seem impossible to live up to. They are, that's the point. It's not even a matter of "if I try hard", because sin nature is part of us and our strivings should be to pick up the cross and follow Jesus' example...to die to ourselves and live for others. I feel that that's one of the main reasons I do what I do...to protect people like you, like my grandmother, my little girl. To live for others, and not live selfishly for personal gain. My reward comes later.
I didn't say that Nazis were good Christians. That's another pretty fallacious logic leap. I said that God appointed Hitler to rule, just as he appointed Xerxes to rule, just as he appointed Pharoah and Caesar and all the kings from then til now and evermore. God's sovereignty is one of the foundational parts of my faith. I don't know WHY He chose to do certain things. It's not my place to know until He reveals it. And that's one of the things I will be inflexible on...that He's sovereign and that He doesn't tell me everything.
Like all serial killers, you now claim to hear voices from god telling you to kill? To be his instrument of death and judgement? He said "BrianfromWA, I want you to kill people for me."? Supposedly, he can kill anyone he wants without your help, so why involve you? Don't use ME as a copout for your thirst to kill. Don't claim for a moment that you're protecting me or mine, because you're not. The US military magnifies and multiplies and most of all creates dangers for me and mine, not the reverse. Without your organization butting into other countries' business and religions and domestic spats I would be loved as an American, not reviled as is the case currently. If you want to serve god and protect me and mine, join the Peace Corps and spread goodwill in America's name. It doesn't pay as well as murder, and it's harder work for sure, but it's what Jesus would do.
And you said he said to obey the leaders he appointed, so he wanted the Germans to kill 6 million Jews, and 20 million Russians, 5 million Poles... Nice guy, that god of yours. Created you in his image did he?
were those lawful orders, Maris? According to international law and the rules of warfare? Yes, I'm created in His image. And corrupted by sin. I'll be back in glorified form someday. But not yet.
I've worked with Peace Corps operatives. It's a tough job. My jobs have been tougher. Oh, but I do protect you, Maris. And your antagonistic, never-left-the-70s take on baby killers, etc. All of that protected because I and many like me stand to defend your right to mock my service, my faith, my job and your fellow man. Not only that, but both you and I pay my salary. Not only that, but I am required to do your bidding, in the form of lawful orders given by the Commander-in-Chief that you and your fellow citizens elected. I and those like me are fighting two wars right now because you and your fellow citizens keep voting into office people who wish to continue it. I also (and others like me) are doing humanitarian missions every day, all over the globe. We're also responding to natural disasters. And search-and-rescue missions. It's not a thirst to kill. It's a drive to protect, to look out for the weaker brother, to serve something bigger than myself, and to sacrifice if it comes to that because my beliefs are so strong. I'm 15 years past being afraid of death. I've looked it in the eyes a couple of times and don't worry about it anymore. I think you've shown in this thread (and others) that you have little comprehension of what Jesus would do. And little standing with which to attempt to sway me. I invite you once again to actually read the stuff you're disparaging. If you want to PM or email me with questions you have I'd be happy to answer as best I can, or refer you to a pastor if I can't help you out.
