[quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']MJ was in his prime during the first 3 peat, but he was smarter and more skilled as an offensive player in the 2nd 3 peat (fundementals, footwork, jumpshot, manipulating defense, etc...). Through watching games online (if you haven't noticed, you can find or request just about any game you want to see online) I have seen MJ through every stage of his career. I have seen almost every Finals game he ever played, and just about every memorable game he played in. In other words, I have a great understanding of what MJ was about, and it is why I consider him the GOAT. Just because I wasn't old enough to see him play live in the '80's and early '90's doesn't mean I haven't seen those games.[/quote]If you say so.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']Like? Dr. J? Elgin Baylor? Grant Hill? Penny? T-Mac (who is my favorite player)? LeBron?[/quote]To name a few. You left off Pippen and Clyde Drexler. There's more, but I'll stop there.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']I cannot name one perimeter player more gifted offensively as Kobe. MJ was the smarter scorer, but Kobe is more talented due to FAR superior jumpshot from any range. Unfortunately Kobe is so talented as a jumpshooter that, like T-Mac, he tends to fall in love with it and his FG % has never approached MJ level. But from a pure talent standpoint, Kobe is IMO the most talented scorer we have ever seen. And while it doesn't mean a ton, we have never seen a perimeter scorer get as hot and unstoppable as Kobe is able to get...we are truly witnessing history with his amazing 60+ point games, streaks of 40, 45 and 50pt games, etc...[/quote]This is something people don't seem to understand. You say you've watched A LOT of MJ games right? Jordan rarely ever took a 3 in rhythm. He usually took it if he had to or if he was left open. He usually tried to find a better shot for himself or his teammates. I've seen Kobe (at least 6-7 times a game), pull up for long contested jumpers 8 seconds into the shot clock. Jordan was a far smarter player. He always tried to get to the rim or close to it. He mastered the mid-range jumpshot, which was deadly accurate and almost automatic. He didn't usually settle for bad shots like Kobe does and always has. Jordan had a much higher FG% for his career than Kobe does because he just plays smarter. If Jordan went off recklessly over the court and took as many shots as Kobe and got as many calls on jumpshots as Kobe, you don't think he'd EASILY duplicate anything Kobe has done? If you don't, you need to find some more tapes and watch more Jordan games.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']I have him as a top 15 player already. Who would YOU put above Kobe all time?[/quote]I haven't even seen lists from experts and analysts that have Kobe among the Top 20. But here's 15 players that I'd put in the Top 15 before Kobe (not in any particular order):Michael JordanMagic JohnsonWilt ChamberlainShaquille O'NealHakeem OlajuwonKareem Abdul-JabbarBill RussellTim DuncanIsiah ThomasJerry WestLarry BirdCharles BarkleyOscar RobertsonPete MaravichJulius ErvingThat's just a quick list with no thought put into it. Probably could come up with more.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']Kobe sacrificed his first 8 years to winning. He was the playmaker for the 3 peat Lakers and did all the dirty work for that team. He is not at fault for Shaq's departure, and even Shaq himself said that. In the past 3 years Kobe has just done what MJ did for the first 3-5 years or so of his career....lots of individual accomplishments with no playoff success to show for it. Kobe then asks to be traded as the Lakers manangement has done nothing to build a championship-caliber squad around him and he wants to be in a winning situation, yet you blast him for that?It's a no win situation with people like you.[/quote]He may not have directly said to Buss, "Get rid of Shaq". But don't be naive thinking he had nothing to do with it. Shaq was just being politically correct so he didn't have to go through the whole drama again. Any idiot can see that. You really believe everything Kobe spouts out don't you? Kobe is tired of being blamed for being selfish. So what does he do? Tell the media he wants to be on a championship team and that he just wants to win. This is the situation he wanted. He wanted to be "the man". You know during the Lakers championship run, even with all their success, Kobe complained like a spoiled little brat? And for the love of god, stop thinking Jordan = Kobe or Kobe > Jordan. Jordan improved as a team player and as an individual player as time went on. Kobe just got more selfish and more selfish. Do you think, if he didn't screw the Lakers over against the Pistons in the Finals, that the Lakers would've broken up their team? NO! They would've stayed intact because I believe they would've beat down the Pistons. Of course, if ONE person touches the ball for 40 minutes a game, it's gonna be tough. And by the way, in Jordan's 4th season, before he got any real help, he led his team to a 50-win season and PAST the first round. Has Kobe done that? No. MJ just ran into a better Pistons team. And that was Jordan's 4th season. Kobe's been in the league, what, 10 years? He has regressed from a team standpoint. Doesn't trust his teammates. Still a prima donna that stops taking shots or being at all part of the offense to prove a point. Winning meant nothing to Kobe till he started getting blasted for NOT winning. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']So the #1 selling jersey in the league and getting MVP chants in places like Atlanta and BOSTON(!) is being one of the most hated players of all time? Right...Like Jordan didn't put himself above all the rest? Screaming at teammates to give him the ball despite when they were on fire? It took a VERY special cast of unselfish players for the Bulls to win rings. MJ never had to deal with a guy like Shaq, who is one of the most selfish players of all time. They would have blew up at each other far worse than the Kobe-Shaq feud was.[/quote]Kobe changed his number. That helps sales. When Shaq moved to Miami, he was #1. Let's get something straight here. Michael Jordan trusted his teammates even at crucial points of the game. (Kerr, Paxson?). Right Jordan always has the "special cast" or the special cases right? Special circumstances? Everything was special for Jordan. God made it so that everything worked right for him and wrong for Kobe right? And Kobe had nothing at all to do with it. Give me a break. Jordan was a great leader. He leads, they'll follow. His teammates weren't selfish? Let's give a look-see here. I seem to recall Game 3 of the 1994 Eastern Conference Semi-Finals where Pippen absolutely REFUSED to return to the game because Phil drew the final play up for Kukoc and not for Pippen. Real unselfish there Pip. So, don't freaking tell me that these players were unselfish by nature and that Jordan was lucky and had it easy. JORDAN was a true LEADER. When he leads, people follow.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='379506' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:05 PM']Kobe has been constantly praised by his teammates the past year or so for his leadership, encouragement and willingness to get them the ball and give them a chance. It worked until they got injured and he had to have a 40PPG month just to get them into the playoffs. That is not being selfish, that is doing what it takes to win, just like what MJ would have done. It is what really seperate Jordan and Kobe from most other players in NBA history.[/quote]Again, don't be naive. Do you think his current teammates will tell people they DON'T like him? Do they want their careers ended? The minute Kobe says he doesn't like them, they're out of the rotation and/or the team. Don't put Kobe on the same level as Jordan. It's just not true. You should check the box scores of the games where Kobe had 4 straight 50-pt games. His teammates weren't doing badly. Better yet, find those tapes and watch the games again. He averaged over a third of his team's shots. Closer to half really if I recall correctly.
[quote name='Let Em Hear This' post='379556' date='Jun 13 2007, 03:01 PM']To name a few. You left off Pippen and Clyde Drexler. There's more, but I'll stop there.[/quote]I strongly disagree with both, but believe what you want. I agree, and if you would read my first initial posts I used this as the main reason why MJ was the greatest scorer ever. But most talented? There is a difference. Jordan was NEVER the 3pt shooter Kobe is...NEVER. Don't mask that fact with the reasoning that MJ took less 3pt shots.Kobe is as deadly of a midrange jumpshooter as MJ was, and has mastered the fadeaway like MJ did. Kobe's footwork, use of pump fakes (which is why he gets so many fouls called on jumpshots) and overall manipulation is as good as we have seen from a swingman not named MJ.MJ had seasons of 24-28FGA's, which is considerably more than any season for Kobe with the exception of 05/06 where he took 27FGA. And fun fact: While Kobe has never shot the kind of % Jordan usually shot, this year he took 22.8FGA per game to score 31.6PPG, which is .4FGA more than it took MJ to score 31.5PPG in '90-'91... so I guess that 3pt shooting does help out, eh (note that both took almost identical amount of FTA too)? Basically when both players had crap teams around them, they both needed to take over the scoring load and shoot an incredible amount of shots each game. Neither do it because they are/were selfish, but because it is simply what the team needs of them. I disagree with Thomas, Barkley, Maravich and Erving. From scoring, to defense, to rebounding, to clutch play, to accomplishments, Kobe trumps Thomas. Outside of rebounding there is not one area Kobe doesn't trump Barkley in. Maravich never won sh*t in his career and outside of playmaking and ballhandling was never better than Kobe in any single area. As for Erving, you can make the case, but simple fact is that he never succeeded in the NBA nearly as much as in the ABA. He was a 22PPG scorer in the NBA, not the playmaker, defender or clutch player Kobe is, and Kobe is more accomplished.You could make a case for either Karl or Moses Malone, Stockton, and maybe another player I am forgetting....but as you can see it isn't hard to see why people would say Kobe is already a top 15 player all time.Who else would you add? The ONLY time Kobe complained was when Shaq started talking sh*t about Kobe, and then they went back and forth in the media like little children. I have defended and defended MJ on this site for the past year and have consistently said he is the greatest player of all time. I keep defending Kobe because I feel people really do underrate what he is doing. From a talent standpoint, I feel he is MORE talented than MJ offensively, and the fact that some people are appalled by such a statement that anyone can be even remotely close to MJ is hilarious to me.Yeah, he really tried to screw the Lakers over in the Finals....yep he really gave it to his own team when he hit the game tying 3 in game 2 which led to the ONLY win for the Lakers in the series. He really screwed them with his 2 buzzer beaters vs Portland to win the division on the last day of the season. Bottom line is the Pistons matched up with the Lakers perfectly, and outside of Shaq and Rick Fox (who scored only 2PPG), the Pistons held everyone on the Lakers to under 38% shooting. Kobe has only had his own team for 3 years, and his team's record is better than what MJ's Bulls had his first 3 seasons. MJ also had a much better supporting cast than Kobe has the year they won 50 games. Kobe had won 3 rings and had 4 finals appearences in his first 8 years in the league. While Shaq was the leader of that team, Kobe still had his hand in almost every category which made him as big of a part to their success as Shaq....he was the perimeter scorer, guy who defended opposing team's best player, the playmaker of the Lakers, and with Shaq out due to foul trouble or on bench because he is a liability at end of games, Kobe would take over and hit the big shots down the stretch. Kobe, to me, is a proven winner and leader. And Kobe doesn't trust his teammates? How about giving Horry the game winning shot in the playoffs ( http://youtube.com/watch?v=kUo8F_5yztk&...ted&search= ). How about letting Odom take the buzzer beater this year vs the Knicks? And there are many more times that you could probably dig up and find yourself.MJ is a superstar, and like every superstar, he needed a special cast of players built around him for things to work. Pippen was more than willing to take a backseat to MJ, and there were no other scorers who interfered with MJ's shot attempts or role. They gave him a fantastic role players who complimented his abilities perfectly. It took quite a few years for it all to click, and it wasn't easy for Michael. But my point being is that he DID need those players to win and he couldn't get it done with average role players. When he had average role players, like Kobe does now, he put up huge stats but didn't win, just like Kobe now. In the early part of his career, Kobe was drafted to a team who was built primarily around another superstar, and Kobe was forced to adapt. He had to adapt rather than role players adapting to him, which is what happenned with MJ. It worked, and he won 3 rings. Kobe is a leader and has been so since his first Finals appearence when, at 20 years old, led a Shaq-less team in OT to a victory over the Pacers. That is exactly how MJ led...by example. Kobe wills his teams to victory moreso than any other player in the league right now, encourages them, and is not the quiet and shy guy off the court like he once was. They weren't saying those things last year, so yes I do believe what theya re saying is sincere. Kobe is always taking them out to dinner, encouraging them both on and off the court, and moreso than previous years you can tell they have a genuine like for the guy. And hell, what the fu*k do you think Jordan's teammates thought about saying ANYTHING negative about the GOAT to the public? Of course they kept quiet no matter what happenned (like Jordan calling Kwame Brown a pussy). Kobe's teammates played well only because Kobe's scoring allowed so much freedom. They just came off a 7 game losing streak and Kobe knew he had to do everything in his power toi get them back on the right track. Even with them playing well, it took 33pts from Kobe in the 4th quarter/OT for the Lakers to come away with the win. Same can be said about the other games, each one being unervingly close. You can say that about ANY player who scores 50 or more points. Hell, I am looking at a box score right now and MJ scored 41pts off of 32 shot attempts. Compare that to the 87 attempts for the team as a whole and you have between half-one third of the total team's shot attempts, let alone it was only 41pts.I am done talking about Kobe's attitude as no matter what I, his teammates, or anyone else says, you just come back with crap that can be also said about MJ throughout his career so I'm not gonna bother. If you want to continue debating their abilities and such, then I'll be happy to. Just please read this post, my 1st in this topic, so we don't have any more misunderstandings: http://www.bballworld.us/forum/index.php?s...st&p=335640
I'm tired of arguing with you about this. I can make another ridiculously long post and you can make another ridiculously long post. But we'll just keep going back in forth. So, I'll end it with this. You love Kobe. I don't. And my opinion is: Jordan was better than Kobe in every aspect of the game. I'm gonna end it with that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Before I post, PLEASE read one of my first posts in which I said MJ is clearly the best player of all time and I'd take him over Kobe.</div>Then why are you even trying to put Kobe close to MJ?? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe is the second greatest SG of all time, and already a top 15 player all time. He isn't MJ, but he is only 29 and has just reached his prime.</div>Are you f*cking kidding me? I know I just got around to reading this thread but son, you just slapped Jordan, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West (JERRY WEST, you know, the guy on the logo), Clyde the f*cking Glide, and REGGIE to name a few, in the face, with the back of your hand. You need to step back and take a long look and learn your NBA history and not just understand what these players did but WHY and why they're so celebrated today, and why so many people model their games after them and revere them. Kobe is an excellent player don't get me wrong, and I'll admit that he is the closest thing we have in the league right now to Michael Jordan as far as a shooting guard is concerned, but he can't hold a freaking candlestick to this guy. He never will.
seriously.. I think everyone should read this article. it sooo applies to this threadhttp://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story...mp;sportCat=nbatruer words were never spoken..
Actually I don't love Kobe. I like him, but up until 2 years ago I was a Kobe hater who questioned his attitude, ability, etc... I believe Jordan is the greatest scorer of all time, better defender, better rebounder, better in clutch, and better leader. All I'm saying is that the gap isn't too wide.[quote name='noballer07' post='379910' date='Jun 13 2007, 10:34 PM']Then why are you even trying to put Kobe close to MJ??[/quote]Frankly because I hate when people say Kobe isn't even in the same ball club, how he doesn't tocuh MJ in any area, etc... MJ is not untoucable, and I am making this an arguement because quite frankly Kobe is playing the SG position better than any other player not named MJ. Right now, Kobe is playing basketball at a level not far off of MJ level. I'll give you Jerry West (he was more of a combo than Kobe, though), although I feel you can make the case for Kobe. Oscar was not a SG, he was a PG. Clyde Drexler was more of a SF and also not as overall talented as a scorer, defender or clutch player. He also was not as accomplished as a team player and indidivual talent. REGGIE MILLER?!? Oh boy....Kobe will never top MJ, and I highly doubt if I'll ever consider Kobe a top 5 all time player...but just being (IMO) the 2nd greatest SG all time and easily the most comparable player we have ever seen to MJ in terms of style and skill is enough for me to call this a discussion and not just blow off. His career accomplishments, team accomplishments, and his ability as an indidivudal player will never match MJ's, but right now he is playing basketball at an MJ-esque level. If this is directed at me, how is this true? Unlike most other people, I have actual reasoning behind calling MJ the greatest player of all time instead of just saying, "OMGZ, MJ is teh gre4test plyr of alLtime, nev3r will be toucHeD." I am arguing this because I feel it can be argued and because I feel people are really underrating what Kobe is doing right now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 14 2007, 02:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Frankly because I hate when people say Kobe isn't even in the same ball club, how he doesn't tocuh MJ in any area, etc... MJ is not untoucable, and I am making this an arguement because quite frankly Kobe is playing the SG position better than any other player not named MJ. Right this second, Kobe is playing basketball at a level not far off of MJ level.</div>I agree 100%. Whenever anyone tries to compare a player to MJ, there are always some people who have a heart attack and stick a gun to their head saying that you can't compare him to MJ. Why not? A comparison is nothing more than similarites and differences. Jordan is not God, you can compare other players to him. Yes, Jordan always comes out better, and I won't argue THAT, but you can still compare players to him, especially a player like Kobe Bryant. No, he hasn't won as much as Jordan, but he still has 3 rings, and is not that far statistically for people to say Kobe is not even on the same ballclub as Jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 14 2007, 03:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If this is directed at me, how is this true? Unlike most other people, I have actual reasoning behind calling MJ the greatest player of all time instead of just saying, "OMGZ, MJ is teh gre4test plyr of alLtime, nev3r will be toucHeD." I am arguing this because I feel it can be argued and because I feel people are really underrating what Kobe is doing right now.</div>no it was not directed at JUST you, but you should be included.I think you missed the point.you'll see in 10 years when younger people are deconstructing the era you followed as a teen, saying KG was overated, Duncan wouldn't be athletic enough to play with today's players etc etc..just like you see posts on here all the time, diminishing the accomplishments of the legends of the game when compairing them to today's players.that fact that you are using reasoning doesn't make the reasoning correct.It just makes you ignorant of the a past you weren't around for.oh and before you say it, watching games on tape/internet, isn't the same as living in the moment.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 14 2007, 04:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>oh and before you say it, watching games on tape/internet, isn't the same as living in the moment.</div>I agree with this to a point. It is different and can be a detriment to a person's arguement, but it also gives more oppertunity to really take in the player and his abilities rather than the hype of the moment. And with all due respect, there are people on this board who are older and believe that many players from the era in which they grew up cannot be touched by the players us teens idolize today. It's a never ending rotation, but I feel I have a better grasp on the legends of this league's past than most my age and I also believe I have a fairly unbiased view on most subjects. This being one of them.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 14 2007, 05:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>no it was not directed at JUST you, but you should be included.I think you missed the point.you'll see in 10 years when younger people are deconstructing the era you followed as a teen, saying KG was overated, Duncan wouldn't be athletic enough to play with today's players etc etc..just like you see posts on here all the time, diminishing the accomplishments of the legends of the game when compairing them to today's players.that fact that you are using reasoning doesn't make the reasoning correct.It just makes you ignorant of the a past you weren't around for.oh and before you say it, watching games on tape/internet, isn't the same as living in the moment.</div>Exactly.
No one is diminishing anyone's accomplishments, so I don't see the point. You have some younger kids who underrate the past, and older people who underrate the present. But for the most part respect has been due, and I don't see anyone having Kobe in any top 10, Duncan in top 5, etc... A good deal of people here, both young and old, have a good grasp of the past and the present. BTW, I see you wrote in another topic about stupid Kobe homers...who the fu*k has given Kobe any respect whatsoever in this topic outside of a few? All I hear in this topic is how Kobe isn't even close and no one will ever touch MJ. The only reason I argue this is because Kobe is playing the game right now at a level that is the closest in both style and effectiveness that we have seen in a real long time, and his accomplishments back up his arguement. Anyone who says Kobe is better than MJ is absolutely crazy...but from a pure talent standpoint and what Kobe has done these past 2 years, the arguement is starting to get intriguing.
MVP has to do with team success as much as individual talent. MJ didn't win MVP until his team was above the 50 win mark, and that is when he had a nice supporting cast around him. When Kobe gets more talent around him and they stay healthy, then you can start knocking him for not winning an MVP. And talent has little to do with the titles or accomplishments....I'm talking from a raw talent standpoint, comapring their offensive talents, defensive, etc... You don't need an MVP award to tell Kobe is the better shooter or MJ is the better slasher.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No one is diminishing anyone's accomplishments, so I don't see the point. You have some younger kids who underrate the past, and older people who underrate the present. But for the most part respect has been due, and I don't see anyone having Kobe in any top 10, Duncan in top 5, etc... A good deal of people here, both young and old, have a good grasp of the past and the present. BTW, I see you wrote in another topic about stupid Kobe homers...who the fu*k has given Kobe any respect whatsoever in this topic outside of a few? All I hear in this topic is how Kobe isn't even close and no one will ever touch MJ. The only reason I argue this is because Kobe is playing the game right now at a level that is the closest in both style and effectiveness that we have seen in a real long time, and his accomplishments back up his arguement. Anyone who says Kobe is better than MJ is absolutely crazy...but from a pure talent standpoint and what Kobe has done these past 2 years, the arguement is starting to get intriguing.</div>Here, I'll give him respect. Kobe is the best individual talent in TODAY's game. And that's the simple and only truth. Kobe homers want to put him in league with the best in history. But simply, he's just the best in today's game. We'll see how his career ends. If he doesn't have any team success by the end. I'll call him the next Dominique. That's enough respect for him.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MVP has to do with team success as much as individual talent. MJ didn't win MVP until his team was above the 50 win mark, and that is when he had a nice supporting cast around him. When Kobe gets more talent around him and they stay healthy, then you can start knocking him for not winning an MVP. And talent has little to do with the titles or accomplishments....I'm talking from a raw talent standpoint, comapring their offensive talents, defensive, etc... You don't need an MVP award to tell Kobe is the better shooter or MJ is the better slasher.</div>You mean Jordan had a rookie Pippen, a rookie Grant and Oakley? Trust me, the next couple of names are not recognizable for most of you. He did not have help. Jordan would have prayed for an Odom, or a Luke Walton.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jun 15 2007, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Here, I'll give him respect. Kobe is the best individual talent in TODAY's game. And that's the simple and only truth. Kobe homers want to put him in league with the best in history. But simply, he's just the best in today's game. We'll see how his career ends. If he doesn't have any team success by the end. I'll call him the next Dominique. That's enough respect for him.</div>I totally respect your opinion, and I agree he needs to have more team success to boost him to definite top 15, possibly even higher.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You mean Jordan had a rookie Pippen, a rookie Grant and Oakley? Trust me, the next couple of names are not recognizable for most of you. He did not have help. Jordan would have prayed for an Odom, or a Luke Walton.</div>In the Lakers first stint with healthy Kobe in 05/06, they won 45 games with a bunch of young players just getting used to triangle, pushed #2 seed to 7 games, started looking like a 50 win team for the following year. This past year Odom was hurt for about 30 games, Luke was hurt, Kwame was hurt, Mihm was hurt, and the rest are NBDL level talent. It took a 40PPG month from Kobe, including the 50pt game streak, just to get them into the playoffs.In other words, I'm giving Kobe a bit more time before I look at his team success as a serious issue. It took MJ awhile to get out of the first round with his own team of mostly average players, even while playing at a level no perimeter player has ever matched. For Kobe it all depends on what happens this offseason, but I feel he has matured as both a player and leader, and his heart and soul has always been into the game. I feel he will be back to his winning form soon enough.
Jordan got out of the 1st rd in his 4th season. The upcoming year is Kobe's 4th season without Shaq. Coincidentally, Kobe wants to be traded and/or better players so he can win. Trying to keep up with Mike? Hmmmmm.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 15 2007, 08:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think Kobe should win at least 1 MVP before we dicuss his talents approaching Jordan's...</div>Why should a bunch of what a bunch of analysts think determine how great a player's talent is?
because they are paid to follow the game?I know you'd like to assume you know more than someone who has followed the game for 20 plus years, but that's arrogance on your part.do analysts know everything?no, they have a bias too and it affects their judgement at times too. Hence a vote by many experienced journalists to decide the MVP.Sure some greats haven't won an MVP, but they played in era's where 1 or 2 players dominated the award. Like Wilt and Bill Russell did in the 60's. Magic, Larry, Moses did in the 80'sRight now there are a ton of very good players, kobe included. There isn't a dominate player who is head an shoulders above everyone else, otherwise they'd be winning the title frequently.since 2000, in 7 years, there have been 5 winners. Kobe ain't one of them.so yeah he's one of the top players right now, but I don't get how people can say he's an all time great player...He's an all time great scorer, like Dominique or George Gervin, Alex English.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jun 16 2007, 01:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan got out of the 1st rd in his 4th season. The upcoming year is Kobe's 4th season without Shaq. Coincidentally, Kobe wants to be traded and/or better players so he can win. Trying to keep up with Mike? Hmmmmm.</div>Unlike MJ, Kobe is now 29 in his 4th season as "the man". MJ had the best years ahead of him when his team started to come together...Kobe is already in his 11th season.CelticFan-Kobe played with Shaq his first 8 seasons, and his first 3 seasons the team hasn't had enough success to warrant a Kobe MVP. IMO he will have to win at least 1 to be in consideration for top 10 all time, but I do not think it is a big deal right now since he still is in his prime and no matter what, he will be in a better team situation next year (whether it be Lakers making a big move or Kobe getting traded).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 16 2007, 02:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Unlike MJ, Kobe is now 29 in his 4th season as "the man". MJ had the best years ahead of him when his team started to come together...Kobe is already in his 11th season.CelticFan-Kobe played with Shaq his first 8 seasons, and his first 3 seasons the team hasn't had enough success to warrant a Kobe MVP. IMO he will have to win at least 1 to be in consideration for top 10 all time, but I do not think it is a big deal right now since he still is in his prime and no matter what, he will be in a better team situation next year (whether it be Lakers making a big move or Kobe getting traded).</div>Exactly. We should get better results from Kobe since he's in his prime.
