<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jun 16 2007, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Exactly. We should get better results from Kobe since he's in his prime.</div>Kobe got a very young team just learning the triangle to 45 wins in 05/06, and this year he got his team in playoffs despite incredible amount of injuries. He has done a very fine job with this team thus far. Kobe is complaining about going for trades and such now because he is in his prime and doesn't have another few years to wait to see if this team eventually pans out like MJ did. That was my point, that Kobe is demanding all of these things that MJ did not because of his age. He is not trying to keep up with MJ, he is simply trying to win a ring while he is still at the top of his game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 16 2007, 03:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe got a very young team just learning the triangle to 45 wins in 05/06, and this year he got his team in playoffs despite incredible amount of injuries. He has done a very fine job with this team thus far. Kobe is complaining about going for trades and such now because he is in his prime and doesn't have another few years to wait to see if this team eventually pans out like MJ did. That was my point, that Kobe is demanding all of these things that MJ did not because of his age. He is not trying to keep up with MJ, he is simply trying to win a ring while he is still at the top of his game.</div>Wow, there's always these "despite this" things. Is it MJ's fault his teammates stayed healthy? Who's to say the Lakers wouldn't have finished with the same record? You should deal with what is, not what could have been. Right now, in my opinion, the with-Shaq Kobe = Scottie Pippen. The post-Shaq Kobe = Dominique Wilkins. People are probably gonna say: "Well, did 'Nique ever drop 81 in a game?" But there are probably things 'Nique did that Kobe hasn't. And I'm sure a lot of players could drop 80+ if that's what they set out to do.Anyway, Kobe is trying so hard to be MJ, but was MJ ever unprofessional enough to go to the media and demand to be traded? Or demand that the front office do something or he be traded? Doubt it. If I'm wrong, correct me and show evidence. Jordan didn't exactly have the best help in the world at the beginning of his career. But he did the best he could with what he had. Never worried about what the media will say. With Jordan, you could tell he played to win. Can't say the same about Kobe especially when during the three-peat run when they were still winning, he said he was tired of "holding back" and deferring.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jun 16 2007, 06:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow, there's always these "despite this" things. Is it MJ's fault his teammates stayed healthy? Who's to say the Lakers wouldn't have finished with the same record? You should deal with what is, not what could have been.</div>Well if we are talking about what is, then why did MJ never get his team to more than 40 wins in his first 2 seasons as leader (I give MJ a break for season #2 as he was hurt most of the time, although they did still make the playoffs). Even with a sh*tload of injuries this year, Kobe kept the team above .500, and in 05/06 led team to 45 wins, only 5 wins less than the Bulls' best record in the '80's.But I'm not going to argue Kobe as the better leader now as that is not my point whatsoever. My point is that Kobe has had very little time as a leader to be considered not a winner or a bad leader, or that because he doesn't have an MVP trophy he can't be compared to the greats.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Right now, in my opinion, the with-Shaq Kobe = Scottie Pippen. The post-Shaq Kobe = Dominique Wilkins. People are probably gonna say: "Well, did 'Nique ever drop 81 in a game?" But there are probably things 'Nique did that Kobe hasn't. And I'm sure a lot of players could drop 80+ if that's what they set out to do.</div>That is your opinion and I completely respect it (although strongly disagree with both). But people give Kobe so much praise as a scorer not because he can drop 81, 65, 62 in 3 quarters, etc... It is because of the talent which allows him to do those things. He has a deadly jumpshot from any range, can take it inside, amazing footwork, amazingly knowledgable as a scorer, knows all the little tricks and really uses them to perfection (a lot like MJ did after his first retirement), etc... As I said before, he is so ubelievably well rounded as a scorer and mixes so many elements that IMO no other scorer has quite done like him. He will likely never be the scorer MJ was due to Kobe's willingness to settle at times for bad shots, but from a pure talent standpoint I feel he is the best we have seen.And Kobe didn't set out to score 81pts...it was in the flow of the game. He scored 26 in first half, but team was down by quite a bit (somewhere between 15-20pts if I remember correctly). He needed that HUGE second half (55pts!) for his team to win. Even with that amazing second half, they didn't really blow out the Raptors.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Anyway, Kobe is trying so hard to be MJ, but was MJ ever unprofessional enough to go to the media and demand to be traded? Or demand that the front office do something or he be traded? Doubt it. If I'm wrong, correct me and show evidence. Jordan didn't exactly have the best help in the world at the beginning of his career. But he did the best he could with what he had. Never worried about what the media will say. With Jordan, you could tell he played to win. Can't say the same about Kobe especially when during the three-peat run when they were still winning, he said he was tired of "holding back" and deferring.</div>BINGO!!!! MJ was YOUNG and had the BEST years ahead of him, so he could afford to wait 7 years before the Bulls were championship ready. Kobe has already played 11 years and is in the middle of his prime...he doesn't have 7 years to wait for the Lakers to hopefully develop into championship quality. Especially since he sees guys like KG, and it makes his decision even easier. He brought it to the media to put additional pressure on the Lakers to make a move. They have passed on big names before when Kobe has requested them behind closed doors. So he demands a trade so they hopefully bring in more talent or he can be traded with a team primed for playoff runs right away.I disagree with your last part as I DO feel Kobe is about winning, but I can see where throughout his career you can pinpoint places where Kobe was all for himself. But I will say this: MJ was all about winning when he was the centerpiece (a good example is him barking at I believe Kerr for not passing him the ball, despite Keer being on fire). If he had to deal with Shaq demanding the ball almost every time down the floor and being forced to be a lesser scoring option, there would have been extreme conflict between the 2. That is just the nature of Kobe and MJ...they are in it for winning, they train and play their a$$es off, but they do have that selfishness and ego to where they need to be the main guy on their teams.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='382006' date='Jun 16 2007, 07:42 PM']Well if we are talking about what is, then why did MJ never get his team to more than 40 wins in his first 2 seasons as leader (I give MJ a break for season #2 as he was hurt most of the time, although they did still make the playoffs). Even with a sh*tload of injuries this year, Kobe kept the team above .500, and in 05/06 led team to 45 wins, only 5 wins less than the Bulls' best record in the '80's.[/quote]Because Jordan was young and NOT in his prime. That's why. That's the point I'm trying to make. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. Here, I'll simplify it: Kobe should be having more success in his prime with bad teammates than Jordan did when he WASN'T in his prime yet. Plain and simple and not arguable. The only explanation would be that even when Jordan wasn't in his prime, he was STILL better than Kobe, which I believe.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='382006' date='Jun 16 2007, 07:42 PM']But I'm not going to argue Kobe as the better leader now as that is not my point whatsoever. My point is that Kobe has had very little time as a leader to be considered not a winner or a bad leader, or that because he doesn't have an MVP trophy he can't be compared to the greats.[/quote]Because it's just not true. Nowhere near true. He's not even one of the 5 best leaders in the league in my opinion.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='382006' date='Jun 16 2007, 07:42 PM']That is your opinion and I completely respect it (although strongly disagree with both). But people give Kobe so much praise as a scorer not because he can drop 81, 65, 62 in 3 quarters, etc... It is because of the talent which allows him to do those things. He has a deadly jumpshot from any range, can take it inside, amazing footwork, amazingly knowledgable as a scorer, knows all the little tricks and really uses them to perfection (a lot like MJ did after his first retirement), etc... As I said before, he is so ubelievably well rounded as a scorer and mixes so many elements that IMO no other scorer has quite done like him. He will likely never be the scorer MJ was due to Kobe's willingness to settle at times for bad shots, but from a pure talent standpoint I feel he is the best we have seen.[/quote]Disagree there. Kobe's a volume shooter. Jordan was an efficient shooter. Decision-making was part of Jordan's "talent" per se. Jordan knew how much more effective he was shooting the mid-range shot or finishing strong in the paint. He also knew the risks he'd be taking by constantly coming down and pulling up for ill-advised long-range shots. If he misses the shot, there will most likely be a long rebound that can incite the opposing team's fast break, which Kobe does TOO often. I believe Jordan was still a more talented scorer and the most talented ever. It's not just about Kobe's willingness. I just don't believe he understands the game as well as Jordan did. Jordan had every aspect down to a science.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='382006' date='Jun 16 2007, 07:42 PM']And Kobe didn't set out to score 81pts...it was in the flow of the game. He scored 26 in first half, but team was down by quite a bit (somewhere between 15-20pts if I remember correctly). He needed that HUGE second half (55pts!) for his team to win. Even with that amazing second half, they didn't really blow out the Raptors.[/quote]Kobe DID set out to score that many. I believe the game was decided in the 4th when he was going for 80. Should have been in the low 70s really. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='382006' date='Jun 16 2007, 07:42 PM']BINGO!!!! MJ was YOUNG and had the BEST years ahead of him, so he could afford to wait 7 years before the Bulls were championship ready. Kobe has already played 11 years and is in the middle of his prime...he doesn't have 7 years to wait for the Lakers to hopefully develop into championship quality. Especially since he sees guys like KG, and it makes his decision even easier. He brought it to the media to put additional pressure on the Lakers to make a move. They have passed on big names before when Kobe has requested them behind closed doors. So he demands a trade so they hopefully bring in more talent or he can be traded with a team primed for playoff runs right away.[/quote]Wait, you think Jordan was "waiting"? He was trying to win. If Kobe valued winning so much, and I hate to always go back to this, he would've worked it out with Shaq. Let's face it, even if he didn't run him out of town (which more likely than not he did), he should've tried to convince him to settle for what the Lakers offered him or talked with management or something. If Shaq stayed so would most of the Laker players. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='382006' date='Jun 16 2007, 07:42 PM']I disagree with your last part as I DO feel Kobe is about winning, but I can see where throughout his career you can pinpoint places where Kobe was all for himself. But I will say this: MJ was all about winning when he was the centerpiece (a good example is him barking at I believe Kerr for not passing him the ball, despite Keer being on fire). If he had to deal with Shaq demanding the ball almost every time down the floor and being forced to be a lesser scoring option, there would have been extreme conflict between the 2. That is just the nature of Kobe and MJ...they are in it for winning, they train and play their a$$es off, but they do have that selfishness and ego to where they need to be the main guy on their teams.[/quote]As for the MJ thing on Kerr*, you'd have to know what was fully going on in the play to determine whether or not that was a selfish move. Was Kerr about to fire those heat-check type shots? Did Jordan have a better look? A lot of things to consider. How do you know there would be a conflict between Jordan and Shaq? A lot of experts and analysts and former players have criticized Kobe's relationship with Shaq on the court. They also said that if Jordan had Shaq, he'd throw the ball to Shaq every time down the court. He knew it's all about winning. And the came should be played from the inside-out. He would understand that having a big man in the middle would make the game easier for himself and everyone around him. I don't think Kobe ever appreciated Shaq. I don't think Kobe fans do either.
[quote name='Let Em Hear This' post='382195' date='Jun 16 2007, 11:13 PM']Because Jordan was young and NOT in his prime. That's why. That's the point I'm trying to make. I don't know how much clearer I can make it. Here, I'll simplify it: Kobe should be having more success in his prime with bad teammates than Jordan did when he WASN'T in his prime yet. Plain and simple and not arguable. The only explanation would be that even when Jordan wasn't in his prime, he was STILL better than Kobe, which I believe.[/quote]But Kobe IS having more success than Jordan did early in his career. Like MJ, he was hurt in one of the first 3 seasons of his career as leader (although unlike Jordan's Bulls, Laker's couldn't stay in playoff hunt without Kobe). The other 2 seasons Kobe's team has been above .500, one of those years 8 games above .500....MJ's Bulls never were above .500 in his first 3 seasons.As I said, my point being is that using Kobe's first 2 real season's as leader to determine how much of a winner or how great of a leader he is is ridiculous. He has done an incredible job so far, but he can't showcase just how good of a leader or winner he is until he gets more support around him (although his performances during the 3 peat, with and without Shaq in the game, speak for themselves). For the simple fact that he is able to carry his team with streaks like 4 straight 50pt games and a 40PPG month is enough for me to call him a top 5 leader in a league filled with questionable attitudes and very few of the top teams have what I would call great leaders. Unlike earlier in his career he is now outgoing with his teammates, takes charge in huddles and on court, and really has become a much more mature leader in the past few seasons. He is not the same quiet, shy and to himself kid that he was early in his career. Jordan wasn't an efficient shooter until later in his career...he was average at best early in his career. What made him so dangerous was his AMAZING driving ability, which made defenders play him loose so he always had very open 15ft jumpshots. There is no question MJ was the much smarter scorer, and IMO the greatest scorer to ever play the game because just how adaptable he was due to his knowledge. He basically played 3 different styles in his career, and succeeded in scoring 30PPG with each one. That is something very, very special.But as I said before, while MJ was more consistent and more efficient as a scorer, Kobe's 3pt shot makes up for the FG % differential. From a PURE skill standpoint, as in driving ability, jumpshot, footwork, and all of that, I feel Kobe is more talented and well rounded than MJ. MJ was much smarter in using his freakish abilities, thus he is the better scorer. See what I am getting at here? He didn't set out for 80, it just happenned. It was within 10pts in the 4th, and since he had the hot hand, he should have been the one taking the shots. Hell, even if it was just 70pts that he truly had in the flow of the game without stat stuffing....that's absolutely incredible. If more players in this league's history could drop 70pts on such good shooting % in the flow of the game...they would. What Kobe did was very special, and while it by no means makes him one of the greatest scorers ever, it is still an incredible achievement. And Kobe is trying to win too, but his situation is much more urgent than MJ's was. The Lakers need to start doing something big NOW for the team to have a chance at a ring with Kobe still in his prime, or else Kobe will need to be traded to get a ring in his prime. Kobe has done almost as much as human possibly for the Lakers to win, but for them to get anywhere they need more help. And if the past few years are any indication, the Lakers will take their good ole' time in getting anything done.Shaq wanted a massive contract that the Lakers as an organization were simply not going to pay for with his age. As it turned out it was a great move as Shaq has declined quite a bit each and every year, and it gave the Lakers more time to rebuild with Kobe still being a young player. With teams like SA/Dallas/Phoenix/Detroit getting better and better, the Lakers weren't going to be winning any more rings with the Kobe/Shaq duo and a brittle old lineup of role players. Kobe fed Shaq the ball all the time in the 3 peat. Shaq had his greatest offensive years with Kobe in the role of playmaker, and they worked very well together, even near the end. But with Shaq's injury in 02-03, and of course his aging, Kobe simply needed to take a bigger role as scorer. Kobe did what was necassary to win. He would have huge games when Shaq was out or needed the help, and he would feed Shaq so Shaq would have those 33PPG+ series. Most of Kobe and Shaq's feud was off the court, as on the court, for the most part, they got along well together.At no point in MJ's career did he EVER have to defer as scorer. At NO point did he ever have to deal with a player who DEMANDED the ball in his hands every damn possession like Shaq did, and if he didn't get the ball he'd refuse to play defense. I think MJ and Shaq would have won rings like Kobe/Shaq did, but they'd have many, many heated arguements about on the court issues. At least that is how I think it would have went down knowing how big each of their ego's are.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shake N Bake NR? @ Jun 17 2007, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGyupOk1sp0watch that.. it says it ALL</div>#5- Definately agree, although I don't think Kobe winning a DPOY would change much. MJ was simply the better, more smothering defender, and didn't gamble as much as Kobe did.#4- Kobe had to play behind Shaq, who notoriously would coast through regular season then turn it up during the playoffs. And these past 2 years against the Suns it has been a better gameplan for the Lakers with Kobe passing it much more since Lakers have a lot of mismatches at the other positions. So it doesn't make a difference, to me, that Kobe's scoring is a bit lower than in regular season.#3- Again, this is kind of a stupid point as Kobe played with Shaq for his first 8 years and was the 2nd scoring option in about 6 of those. Topping 30PPG x amount of time or having x amount of scoring titles doesn't sway my opinion much.#2- Agree, Kobe needs to win at least 1-2 MVP awards before considered a top 10 player all time, or higher.#1- Agree, although I don't think the number necassarily has to be 3. But he does have to prove, at some point, that he can lead a team to a ring, preferably multiple rings.Even if he does do those things, I wouldn't call him the better player than MJ. I know Kobe played with Shaq his first 8 seasons and simply hasn't had support to lead his team any place the past 3 seasons, so accomplishments aren't a huge button issue for me. What matters to me is their ability and overall play on the court, and Kobe still has quite a ways to go to match MJ in that area. But it was a pretty nice video piece, anyway.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 17 2007, 12:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>#5- Definately agree, although I don't think Kobe winning a DPOY would change much. MJ was simply the better, more smothering defender, and didn't gamble as much as Kobe did.#4- Kobe had to play behind Shaq, who notoriously would coast through regular season then turn it up during the playoffs. And these past 2 years against the Suns it has been a better gameplan for the Lakers with Kobe passing it much more since Lakers have a lot of mismatches at the other positions. So it doesn't make a difference, to me, that Kobe's scoring is a bit lower than in regular season.#3- Again, this is kind of a stupid point as Kobe played with Shaq for his first 8 years and was the 2nd scoring option in about 6 of those. Topping 30PPG x amount of time or having x amount of scoring titles doesn't sway my opinion much.#2- Agree, Kobe needs to win at least 1-2 MVP awards before considered a top 10 player all time, or higher.#1- Agree, although I don't think the number necassarily has to be 3. But he does have to prove, at some point, that he can lead a team to a ring, preferably multiple rings.Even if he does do those things, I wouldn't call him the better player than MJ. I know Kobe played with Shaq his first 8 seasons and simply hasn't had support to lead his team any place the past 3 seasons, so accomplishments aren't a huge button issue for me. What matters to me is their ability and overall play on the court, and Kobe still has quite a ways to go to match MJ in that area. But it was a pretty nice video piece, anyway.</div>I completely agree with Nitro. The first 8 years with Shaq hurt him statistically and as an individual, but Jordan will always be better.
BTW, my friend just sent me an interesting link. Let Em Hear This, you keep saying MJ would never say the kind of sh*t Kobe does about his organization, or MJ was never sometimes cruel to his teammates, or that he wasn't a very selfish or egotistical person (both of which also made him a great winner), but look at some quotes of his from the book "The Jordan Rules" (scroll down a bit):http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.p...asc&start=0
ididn't and dont intend on reading this entire thread but Jordan gets my vote- he was a classier human being(yes he gambled n sh*t) in basketball related things he always carried himself with pride!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clangus @ Jun 18 2007, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>ididn't and dont intend on reading this entire thread but Jordan gets my vote- he was a classier human being(yes he gambled n sh*t) in basketball related things he always carried himself with pride!</div>Classy? You read that thing? You heard what his teamates have said about him?Mj was the goat but he wasn't classy. Well he was to the media. Same thing with bryant.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Amare320 @ Jun 18 2007, 05:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I still haven't finished reading that Jordan Rules book, I never will! it's all wrong, iv'e heard.</div>It's all wrong because Mj said so. But go ask his teamates if it's a lie. Jordan publicly made statements like he was tired carrying Horace and pippen. The source was PJ and he doesn't make up stuff.
IMO kobe has nothing on jordan for many reasons. One being that kobe needs shaq where as jordan needs jordan. Jordan has the ability to make his team better. No doubt kobe is a great ball player.. just no comparison to jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 18 2007, 02:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>BTW, my friend just sent me an interesting link. Let Em Hear This, you keep saying MJ would never say the kind of sh*t Kobe does about his organization, or MJ was never sometimes cruel to his teammates, or that he wasn't a very selfish or egotistical person (both of which also made him a great winner), but look at some quotes of his from the book "The Jordan Rules" (scroll down a bit):http://forums.lakersground.net/viewtopic.p...asc&start=0</div>First, I never said Jordan was NEVER cruel to his teammates or do things that might be considered selfish. And I'd rather some firsthand information. Sources and whatnot. Or video clips. News articles. Something credible. If you're gonna use the Jordan Rules book as evidence, then we can use Phil's book as evidence (which I haven't used anywhere in this thread). I know how much you wanna crucify MJ and put Kobe on a pedestal, but the fact of the matter is: MJ > Kobe in not just basketball but everything. Seriously though, you're a member of LG? That's the HQ for Kobe homers. If I could I'd nuke their server.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Let Em Hear This @ Jun 18 2007, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First, I never said Jordan was NEVER cruel to his teammates or do things that might be considered selfish. And I'd rather some firsthand information. Sources and whatnot. Or video clips. News articles. Something credible. If you're gonna use the Jordan Rules book as evidence, then we can use Phil's book as evidence (which I haven't used anywhere in this thread). I know how much you wanna crucify MJ and put Kobe on a pedestal, but the fact of the matter is: MJ > Kobe in not just basketball but everything. Seriously though, you're a member of LG? That's the HQ for Kobe homers. If I could I'd nuke their server.</div>HAHA....I don't join ANY fansites, not even Rockets or Nets fansites. My friend who is a member from there (Melo061) sent me the link as he thought the quotes were funny.BTW, if you didn't know, the Jordan Rules' main source is Phil Jackson himself. I bring the quotes up to show that MJ had a very similar attitude as Kobe in his ego, selfishness and being critical of manangement. Phil Jackson has backed this up in many interviews and it is clear that from just watching the two they are very similar in how they go about business (although Kobe tends to be more of a drama queen than MJ, who was a bit more straight-forward).I am not trying to put Kobe on a pedistal, I am not trying to say he is a better leader, scorer, rebounder, clutch player...none of that. I am just trying to bring some of the hype of MJ being some kind of god a bit down (like all your ridiculous notions and accusations of Kobe, then going back and looking past any of MJ's similar characteristics or flaws), and trying to show that right now, Kobe is playing basketball at a level not far off of MJ level. Being that their styles are extremely similar, attitudes and egos are extremely similar, and that Kobe is one of the most accomplished SG's to play the game, it is a fun debate to be had. You can read my first post to see how I'd really break them down as players, but all I'm doing now is to show MJ was never lightyears ahead of what Kobe is doing NOW. You keep implying that I think Kobe is the better player, whether it be on offense or defense, and that is far from the truth.
The problem with taking Phil Jackson for his word, is that he's a self serving S.O.B. who threw both Jordan and Kobe under the bus once he had won titles with them and thought he was done with both of them to sell his books. His ego is almost as big as either of them too.It's not so blatantly obvious because he's an excellent manipulator.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 18 2007, 08:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The problem with taking Phil Jackson for his word, is that he's a self serving S.O.B. who threw both Jordan and Kobe under the bus once he had won titles with them and thought he was done with both of them to sell his books. His ego is almost as big as either of them too.It's not so blatantly obvious because he's an excellent manipulator.</div>It wasn't JUST Phil Jackson giving the quotes, it was also the author getting locker room access and the whole 9. I agree that you have to look at Phil Jackson's take on things with a bit of a skewed perspective, but he rarely lies. I am positive that over 90% of what he said about both Kobe and MJ are true as it is right in line with what teammates and other onlookers have observed about both.
Still it's a bit weasely to say those things as a coach in a tell all book.without a doubt Jordan was driven and hard on his teamates. Yet he must have done it in such a way that he got the best out of them too. He relied on them more than Kobe does.and yes Jordan did have better teamates and therefore better success but there's no doubt they played better than they would have on an average NBA because of Jordan.
