This might be the most hypocritical topic I've ever seen.People are saying Carmelo is selfish because he doesn't pass in the final 2 minutes of the game, yet when LeBron passes in the final 2 minutes of a game, he shouldn't pass. He should shoot everytime. And thats the second time someone has talked about Carmelo being a choker. You do know we are comparing him to Vince Carter here. The same guy who shot 33% in his first playoff series. The same guy who shot under 40% last year in the playoffs. The same guy who didn't have a FG in the second half last night, and shot 12/33 in the first game. The same guy who in the past 3 years, playoffs or not, only has a 25% FG percentage with 10 seconds left, game on the line, in the clutch. In my argument with Nitro, he told me I shouldn't bring up the past three years, because Carmelo's rebounding and assists have decreased to much. What did he do his next post? Talked about VC's scoring in his third season, which was five seasons agoCome on guys, don't bring up meaningless facts and arguments for the sake of saying stuff
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Since this is mostly a Nuggets site I'm not even gonna try and argue.</div>Theres only 2 active Nuggets fans here
Alright then I'll bring out the honest truth. Jason Kidd, Richard Jefferson, Vince Carter are all better than him.
You love me Tony.Soon it will be Krstic>Kenyon.Ahh back on topic, Carmelo has a sick game but he also has an attitude problem. I pretty much think there game is even except Vince is more versitle.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 27 2006, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He is inconsistent because he has 2 other 20PPG scorers in RJ and Krstic, and a 15PPG guy in Kidd. When they get hot, his points go down. And I disagree with him not being a crazy scorer.....after he was traded last year he averaged 27PPG, consistently getting 30 point games (I believe broke a franchise record) and led team to playoffs. Aren't you the same guy who says Kobe is soooooooooooooo much better than Dwyane Wade? And unlike Carmelo, Wade is the better passer and overall player than his counterpart. All melo has on VC is more efficient at scoring.And don't use last 3 years in this arguement. As Melo's PPG have went up, his overall play has declined, which includes rebounding.Once again, VC is the better overall player, and like Kobe, T-Mac and other superstar swingman, he may not be too efficient, but he is extremely dangerous and can go off for 30 points in a quarter. Melo will never have that kind of ability if he doesn't possess it yet.</div>Since when does Krstic average 20 ppg? don't lie to get your point across.He averaged 27 ppg for about 25 games while shooting a poor fg%.if his rebounding has declined in the last 3 years, and he's still averaging as many rpg as vince, what does that tell you?When was the last time Vince scored 30 in a quarter? has he even done it before?Melo has been in the league for a much shorter time, and if you say he can't take over a game, you are the dumbest person alive. He CAN take over games. you think 45 points is just a mediocre performance? get real.-You can debate without calling people names
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Universe @ Apr 28 2006, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Soon it will be Krstic>Kenyon.</div>I think Kristic is already better than KenyonAnd dogmatist, in the post I deleted by mistake (Again, very sorry for my dumbness) you called Nitro a few names. You crafty guy you
[quote name='nba dogmatist' post='48993' date='Apr 28 2006, 05:30 PM']Since when does Krstic average 20 ppg? don't lie to get your point across.[/quote]Never said he averages 20PPG, but he has the ability in which if you allow him more than 10FGA's, he will get in upper teens/lower 20's. RJ doesn't average 20PPG, and JKidd doesn't average 15PPG, but on any given night one of those 3 will have a big game and Carter will be a playmkaer rather than scorer. My point being is that VC, while being NJ's major threat, is far from their only threat, and is why he doesn't consistently get 27PPG like he did last year with RJ out and Krstic a rook. Umm, try 27PPG on 46% shooting for 57 games played. He also had 6RPG and 5APG....anotherwards, better than any Paul Pierce season, with 2005-2006 being the exception (although eh couldn't get team into East playoffs, which had no competition and he was with Celts all season, where VC led Nets to playoffs even though he wasn't there for first 1/4 of season. He's not averaging more RPG, and melo is 3-4 inches taller. Carter is .1RPG from averaging a full RPG more than Melo...What does that tell you? \Don't know, but as I said in original post, CAN score 30 points in a qaurter. I dont think any superstar swingman, with Kobe as possible excpetion, has ever scored 30 points in 1 quarter. But, I have seen him score over 30 points in a half, and over 25 in a quarter on more than 1 occasion. Point being is that Melo doesn't have the explosive scorer ability. Nope, he can take over a game....just not like a superstar swingman can. He can't go off for 50 points, can't go off for over 30 points on a consistent basis, and can't have strings of 40 point games. He can't blow up for 20 points in a quarter, and can't catch fire and hit 4 or 5 3's in 1 quarter. He can't be a playmaker for his team like VC can, and can't score in many ways like VC can. VC is still more than a hair better than melo.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 30 2006, 11:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Never said he averages 20PPG, but he has the ability in which if you allow him more than 10FGA's, he will get in upper teens/lower 20's. RJ doesn't average 20PPG, and JKidd doesn't average 15PPG, but on any given night one of those 3 will have a big game and Carter will be a playmkaer rather than scorer. My point being is that VC, while being NJ's major threat, is far from their only threat, and is why he doesn't consistently get 27PPG like he did last year with RJ out and Krstic a rook.Umm, try 27PPG on 46% shooting for 57 games played. He also had 6RPG and 5APG....anotherwards, better than any Paul Pierce season, with 2005-2006 being the exception (although eh couldn't get team into East playoffs, which had no competition and he was with Celts all season, where VC led Nets to playoffs even though he wasn't there for first 1/4 of season.He's not averaging more RPG, and melo is 3-4 inches taller. Carter is .1RPG from averaging a full RPG more than Melo...What does that tell you?\Don't know, but as I said in original post, CAN score 30 points in a qaurter. I dont think any superstar swingman, with Kobe as possible excpetion, has ever scored 30 points in 1 quarter. But, I have seen him score over 30 points in a half, and over 25 in a quarter on more than 1 occasion. Point being is that Melo doesn't have the explosive scorer ability.Nope, he can take over a game....just not like a superstar swingman can. He can't go off for 50 points, can't go off for over 30 points on a consistent basis, and can't have strings of 40 point games. He can't blow up for 20 points in a quarter, and can't catch fire and hit 4 or 5 3's in 1 quarter. He can't be a playmaker for his team like VC can, and can't score in many ways like VC can. VC is still more than a hair better than melo.</div>Vince still averages a TON of fga's. By far the most on his team. No matter who is playing well, he is still going to get his shots.Was it really 57 games? my bad on that. But why are we bringing paul pierce into this? regardless of his STATS, he is NOT a better player than Pierce.You can't justify that they can score 30 points in a qtr. if they've never done it. If you've seen ONE game where he went on an outburst, that means nothing. If he had 25 in a quarter, that further proves his inconsistency. He must've had one or two horrible quarters, or else he would've had a game in the high 60's.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 1 2006, 08:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Vince still averages a TON of fga's. By far the most on his team. No matter who is playing well, he is still going to get his shots.Was it really 57 games? my bad on that. But why are we bringing paul pierce into this? regardless of his STATS, he is NOT a better player than Pierce.You can't justify that they can score 30 points in a qtr. if they've never done it. If you've seen ONE game where he went on an outburst, that means nothing. If he had 25 in a quarter, that further proves his inconsistency. He must've had one or two horrible quarters, or else he would've had a game in the high 60's.</div>Yes, he is going to get shots, but there are occasions where the offense is directed at other players. Point being is that he would be averaging more PPG, and probably a better FG % if he was on a team where he was the only real scoring threat, as he would have more of a chance at being consistent. Sort of like why I blame Kobe's inconsistencies for Odom's so-so season. Melo is the only real scoring threat on Nuggets, outside of fastbreak points. I brought Pierce in to show just how good VC is in a system that Paul Pierce has been in 3 of the past 4 seasons (bad team with no other scoring options). And don't say Kidd was a huge factor last year, because defenses zero'd in on Carter as there were no other scoring threats.I have seen many games where he goes on huge outbursts, it is the point that he can go on 20 point quarters and have those outbursts. Melo can't. As for his inconsistency, what if he dropped 25 in first quarter, 10 in 2nd, 15 in third, then sat out fourth as team was way ahead (example: Kobe against Mavs)? In that game he would have been consistent, but since team was up so much, he didn't play much anymore.
Why the hell would vince's fg% go up if he's the only scoring threat. defenses would zero in on him.The Celtics have more scoring options than just Paul, but that's a whole new argument. I won't get into it, no matter how tempted i am. And Kidd's penetration still helped Vince. He may not have been scoring alot, but he was setting up everybody. And when RJ went out, Nenad Krstic started to emerge. Vince was not the only scoring option.Who cares if Vince can score in outbursts? At the end of the day (game), Carmelo is still averaging more points per game. I would take a consistent and efficient scoring threat any day over a streaky scorer with a low fg%. ANY DAY.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 1 2006, 07:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why the hell would vince's fg% go up if he's the only scoring threat. defenses would zero in on him.The Celtics have more scoring options than just Paul, but that's a whole new argument. I won't get into it, no matter how tempted i am. And Kidd's penetration still helped Vince. He may not have been scoring alot, but he was setting up everybody. And when RJ went out, Nenad Krstic started to emerge. Vince was not the only scoring option.Who cares if Vince can score in outbursts? At the end of the day (game), Carmelo is still averaging more points per game. I would take a consistent and efficient scoring threat any day over a streaky scorer with a low fg%. ANY DAY.</div>They would zero in on him, but the offense would be more consistent game after game, and there would be a routine. Right now, nets rely on who gets hot from game to game.Never said they don't. But there is no question Pierce is the only real scorer on the team, the only scorer who can get himself easy buckets and get over 20PPG. And once again, your ignorance shows as most of VC's shots come off isolations. Very rarely will Kidd setup Carter for an open shot, unless it's on the fastbreak. As for Nenad, he didn't emerge until the Nets played the Heat. He was a consistent 10PPG scorer. Outside of him, VC and Kidd, no one could score on the Nets. And he is also main scorer who the team depends on to score 25PPG. VC has proven throughout career when on a team where he is sole scorer he can score 25PPG and do it efficiently and very dynamically (each of his 3 seasons with over 25PPG he shot over 46%). He is a way more versatile scorer than Carmelo, and while not quite as efficient FG % wise (if you were to go by that, then AI would be one of the worst scorers in NBA and Kobe wouldn't be too high) he can go for those huge games and lead team single handedly. Melo can't. VC is the far better rebounder, especially considering he is 3-4 inches shorter. VC is the FAR better passer. Defensively, they are about even, although VC averaged more SPG and BPG. I keep bringing up Pierce because I know that you get annoyed that many people think VC is better than Pierce. I know that you think Pierce is such a fantastic player, and probably think better than Anthony. But, VC is a very comparable player to Pierce, and while I give nod to Pierce, I feel both are definately better than melo.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 1 2006, 06:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They would zero in on him, but the offense would be more consistent game after game, and there would be a routine. Right now, nets rely on who gets hot from game to game.Never said they don't. But there is no question Pierce is the only real scorer on the team, the only scorer who can get himself easy buckets and get over 20PPG. And once again, your ignorance shows as most of VC's shots come off isolations. Very rarely will Kidd setup Carter for an open shot, unless it's on the fastbreak. As for Nenad, he didn't emerge until the Nets played the Heat. He was a consistent 10PPG scorer. Outside of him, VC and Kidd, no one could score on the Nets. And he is also main scorer who the team depends on to score 25PPG. VC has proven throughout career when on a team where he is sole scorer he can score 25PPG and do it efficiently and very dynamically (each of his 3 seasons with over 25PPG he shot over 46%). He is a way more versatile scorer than Carmelo, and while not quite as efficient FG % wise (if you were to go by that, then AI would be one of the worst scorers in NBA and Kobe wouldn't be too high) he can go for those huge games and lead team single handedly. Melo can't. VC is the far better rebounder, especially considering he is 3-4 inches shorter. VC is the FAR better passer. Defensively, they are about even, although VC averaged more SPG and BPG. I keep bringing up Pierce because I know that you get annoyed that many people think VC is better than Pierce. I know that you think Pierce is such a fantastic player, and probably think better than Anthony. But, VC is a very comparable player to Pierce, and while I give nod to Pierce, I feel both are definately better than melo.</div>okay, it doesn't matter who is hot that game, Vince will still lead the team in fga's MOST of the time. If anything, that takes pressure off of him to score, thus he would shoot a better %.Don't give that bullsh**. I know that some of VC's points come off of iso's but not most. I don't consider jacking up a 3 and "isolation"."he can go for those huge games and lead team single handedly. Melo can't" What a stupid thing to say. you said earlier that Carmelo is the ONLY scorer on his team. So how is he not carrying them offensively?"VC is the far better rebounder, especially considering he is 3-4 inches shorter". Okay, now you're just making sh*t up. In the last three years, like KMart pointed out. They are equal in rebounding, while Vince isn't even averaging 1 more rpg now. And Vince is 6'6", Melo is 6'8". That's a 2 inch difference, not 3-4. And i know you didn't think Melo was 6'9".And you said something about being a more versatile scorer. What does that matter? Melo is still scoring more at a better %, it doesn't matter how they do it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 1 2006, 07:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>okay, it doesn't matter who is hot that game, Vince will still lead the team in fga's MOST of the time. If anything, that takes pressure off of him to score, thus he would shoot a better %.Don't give that bullsh**. I know that some of VC's points come off of iso's but not most. I don't consider jacking up a 3 and "isolation"."he can go for those huge games and lead team single handedly. Melo can't" What a stupid thing to say. you said earlier that Carmelo is the ONLY scorer on his team. So how is he not carrying them offensively?"VC is the far better rebounder, especially considering he is 3-4 inches shorter". Okay, now you're just making sh*t up. In the last three years, like KMart pointed out. They are equal in rebounding, while Vince isn't even averaging 1 more rpg now. And Vince is 6'6", Melo is 6'8". That's a 2 inch difference, not 3-4. And i know you didn't think Melo was 6'9".And you said something about being a more versatile scorer. What does that matter? Melo is still scoring more at a better %, it doesn't matter how they do it.</div>No, it won't take pressure off him, as he stillg ets double teamed. The only time pressure is taken off him is when RJ has a huge game. Otherwise, they leave RJ open jumpshots and double VC, as RJ isn't a great jumpshooter. Yes, most of his points do come off isolations. Ask any Nets fan. And jacking up 3's? Lifetime he is 38% 3 point shooter. This year 34%, last year 43%. Both are better than Melo's dismal 25% shooting from 3. Both better than Kobe's 3pt FG % this year and last year, both better than T-Mac's 3pt FG % this year and last year, and last year was better than Pierce's, worse than Pierce's this year by 3%........anotherwards, it's hard to jack up 3's when you're hitting them so often.Carter, over past 2 seasons with nets, is averaging .3 more RPG than Melo past 2 seasons. Melo is taller than 6'8''. Bron once said Melo is taller than Bron, and Bron is 6'8''. Many people....RJ, Iggy, etc say VC is more like 6'5'' than 6'6''. Players lie all the time about height and weight, perfect example is KG, who is the most notorious for lying about his height. So you're saying Wade is a better scorer than Kobe Bryant and LeBron because his FG % is better? You're saying that T-Mac is on the lower end of scorers in league, same with AI? VC is far more versatile. When you need a 3, VC can hit it 38% of the time (career stat, this year is one of his lower years for 3pt FG %), and Melo can hit it under 30% of the time. When you need a player who can hit a fadeaway 18ftr or hit a tough driving layup, VC is your man (most of Melo's points come off of postups or midrange game against single coverage). VC is the better scorer, stats show it (all superstar's numbers decline when another all star comes on team), history shows it, and right now in playoffs, you can see it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 1 2006, 07:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No, it won't take pressure off him, as he stillg ets double teamed. The only time pressure is taken off him is when RJ has a huge game. Otherwise, they leave RJ open jumpshots and double VC, as RJ isn't a great jumpshooter. Yes, most of his points do come off isolations. Ask any Nets fan. And jacking up 3's? Lifetime he is 38% 3 point shooter. This year 34%, last year 43%. Both are better than Melo's dismal 25% shooting from 3. Both better than Kobe's 3pt FG % this year and last year, both better than T-Mac's 3pt FG % this year and last year, and last year was better than Pierce's, worse than Pierce's this year by 3%........anotherwards, it's hard to jack up 3's when you're hitting them so often.Carter, over past 2 seasons with nets, is averaging .3 more RPG than Melo past 2 seasons. Melo is taller than 6'8''. Bron once said Melo is taller than Bron, and Bron is 6'8''. Many people....RJ, Iggy, etc say VC is more like 6'5'' than 6'6''. Players lie all the time about height and weight, perfect example is KG, who is the most notorious for lying about his height. So you're saying Wade is a better scorer than Kobe Bryant and LeBron because his FG % is better? You're saying that T-Mac is on the lower end of scorers in league, same with AI? VC is far more versatile. When you need a 3, VC can hit it 38% of the time (career stat, this year is one of his lower years for 3pt FG %), and Melo can hit it under 30% of the time. When you need a player who can hit a fadeaway 18ftr or hit a tough driving layup, VC is your man (most of Melo's points come off of postups or midrange game against single coverage). VC is the better scorer, stats show it (all superstar's numbers decline when another all star comes on team), history shows it, and right now in playoffs, you can see it.</div>yes, other scorers take pressure off of vince. People sagging when he drives is different than a double team.You're pretty naive if you don't think Carter jacks up 3's. Will you stop bringing up the god damned past with everything? we're talking about vince <u>NOW</u>. And why do you keep on brining other players into this? it's completely irrelevant. this is <u>Vince vs. Melo</u>!I don't believe you one bit with the heights. You'll have to prove it to me. Why would vince say he was 6'6" if he was 6'5"? I can understand KG's reasoning, but there would be no reason for vince doing this. i think you're just lying about it. and if he's f*cking averaging .3 more rpg, then how the hell is he a way better rebounder?? you're just being biased.What are you doing talking about Wade being a better scorer than LeBron and all that? I never said shooting a better percentage makes you a better scorer, you idiot. Melo is shooting a better %, while scoring more. The % is only brought up to tell you it's not bc of Vince having touches being taken away from him. Vince shoots more and scores less. So how is he a better scorer?And Vince doesn't even have another all-star on his team. Stop making up stuff you don't even know about. Melo gets double teamed just as much as vince, if not MORE. And these playoffs don't really show it. Melo is getting atleast doubled every time he touches, even tripled on occasion.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 1 2006, 10:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>yes, other scorers take pressure off of vince. People sagging when he drives is different than a double team.You're pretty naive if you don't think Carter jacks up 3's. Will you stop bringing up the god damned past with everything? we're talking about vince <u>NOW</u>. And why do you keep on brining other players into this? it's completely irrelevant. this is <u>Vince vs. Melo</u>!I don't believe you one bit with the heights. You'll have to prove it to me. Why would vince say he was 6'6" if he was 6'5"? I can understand KG's reasoning, but there would be no reason for vince doing this. i think you're just lying about it. and if he's f*cking averaging .3 more rpg, then how the hell is he a way better rebounder?? you're just being biased.What are you doing talking about Wade being a better scorer than LeBron and all that? I never said shooting a better percentage makes you a better scorer, you idiot. Melo is shooting a better %, while scoring more. The % is only brought up to tell you it's not bc of Vince having touches being taken away from him. Vince shoots more and scores less. So how is he a better scorer?And Vince doesn't even have another all-star on his team. Stop making up stuff you don't even know about. Melo gets double teamed just as much as vince, if not MORE. And these playoffs don't really show it. Melo is getting atleast doubled every time he touches, even tripled on occasion.</div>VC gets double teamed every time he gets within the 3 point mark.I bring up past because it is completely relevant to this. Not so much for Melo, as he is still young, but VC peaked in 2000-2001ish. Like EVERY superstar, stats go up and down due to different situations and injuries. Pierce was going downhill for 3 seasons before this blowout year. Kobe always goes up and down with his stats every year. T-Mac was having a horrid year, yet I still consider him a top 5 swingman. I bring up the past not to show "how much better he was" or anything like that, I bring them up to show that when VC is the only real scoring threat on a team, his stats are better than Melo's. For 3 seasons he did it in Toronto, and last year with Nets. This year RJ, Krstic, and Kidd have picked up slack on scoring load, so his production has gone down.I am just saying what other players have said. Look in the Inside Stuff magazine from a few months back, when iggy was on the 24 seconds thing, and commented about VC's height. Same with NBA Dunks! volume 1, you can hear commentary from RJ. As for Melo, I will search around. Nontheless, Melo is a foward, and VC averaged a WHOLE RPG more. Why do you keep telling me to not look at the past, yet you combine Melo and VC's last 2 seasons and give me the RPG thing? THIS season, which you seem to be stressing so much, Melo is averaging a full rebound less than VC. While you may downplay that, 5RPG for such a good SF is terrible, and he is getting outrebounded by a SG who is far more agressive than him, and also shorter. Actually you are wrong. VC shoots 1 less shot per game than Melo. And ok another analogy, you say Wade is a better scorer than your Paul Pierce, as he has more PPG and has better FG %? Kidd has been an all star 7 times in his career, and still a top 2-3 PG in the league. RJ is averaging 20/7/4 on 49% shooting.....both of them are damn well all star caliber players. You take things way too literally, as you knew damn well what I was referring to. Melo doesn't get double teamed, as he has no outside range. Yes if he gets into paint the defense will collapse, but for the most part no double team. VC gets double teamed whenever he gets inside 20ft or so. Heh, I love how immature you are. You post NO facts, your opinions are overshadowed by your constant bi*ching, and you have brought nothing to the table. Overall stats, past seasons from VC, and their performances in the playoffs all show VC is the better player. Far better playmaker, better passer, better rebounder, and IMO better scorer, although even if you say melo is better it is a slim lead if ANYTHING. Defensively, VC's more SPG and BPG show he is more agressive, and his less TO per game is astonishing considering when Kidd is not in (11MPG, usually Carter and Kidd rotate as Nets main playmaker when the other is on bench) as Carter is one of the Nets playmakers, while Melo doesn't playmake much at all. Carter's assists-TO ratio is much better than Melo's (Melo actually averaged more TO's per game than APG).
