Vince does NOT get double teamed everytime he drives. That's a lie and you know it. And like i said, stop bringing other players into this.you're making that much of a fuss about one rpg. That's really nothing. it's one dang rebound! 5 rpg for a SF is not terrible at all. It's not incredible, but it is definitely not bad.okay, so i didn't look up the fga's. i assumed bc melo shot a better % with more ppg, that he'd have less attempts. but it's only by .5and i actually do think that Dwyane Wade is a better scorer than Paul Pierce. And again, stop bringing other players into this.What does Melo's range have to do with him being double teamed? that's completely irrelevant. He gets doubles, if you don't believe me turn it on TNT right now and see melo get doubled as soon as he touches it.how am i being immature? It's called arguing.And i have brought facts in, and how can you say i've brought nothing to the table? if i didn't, we wouldn't be arguing right now. And i never said Melo had a big edge or anything. I actually said it was close. I'm not even really arguing who's a better player all-around, bc i know vince has alot more all-around talent, i'm arguing who's the better scorer.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 2 2006, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Vince does NOT get double teamed everytime he drives. That's a lie and you know it. And like i said, stop bringing other players into this.you're making that much of a fuss about one rpg. That's really nothing. it's one dang rebound! 5 rpg for a SF is not terrible at all. It's not incredible, but it is definitely not bad.okay, so i didn't look up the fga's. i assumed bc melo shot a better % with more ppg, that he'd have less attempts. but it's only by .5and i actually do think that Dwyane Wade is a better scorer than Paul Pierce. And again, stop bringing other players into this.What does Melo's range have to do with him being double teamed? that's completely irrelevant. He gets doubles, if you don't believe me turn it on TNT right now and see melo get doubled as soon as he touches it.how am i being immature? It's called arguing.And i have brought facts in, and how can you say i've brought nothing to the table? if i didn't, we wouldn't be arguing right now. And i never said Melo had a big edge or anything. I actually said it was close. I'm not even really arguing who's a better player all-around, bc i know vince has alot more all-around talent, i'm arguing who's the better scorer.</div>He does get double teamed, everytime he gets within 20ft of basket. I watch more Nets games than you, guarenteed.Carter is shorter than Melo, doesn't weigh as much, and is a SG....yet outhustles melo for that RPG. That, along with those other hustle stats, show laziness in Melo's game (laziness has always been a big knock on Melo). I bring other players into it because I know you hate VC, and know that your bias against him has a big effect on this arguement. That is why I bring in analogies, to see your actual POV.Except for when in paint, Melo rarely gets doubles. if they are trapping, yes he'll get double teamed, but in a normal halfcourt offense and defense, he rarely gets double teamed as he isn't an outside threat. Calling me names and sh*t, that's how you're being immature.I am arguing right now only because I am bored and don't have much school work today (over next few weeks days like this will become very scarce). I also have strong feelings on this matter, as I feel too many people hate on Carter without looking at facts and actual games. Carter is a more well rounded scorer, more dyamic scorer, betterpasser and playmaker, better rebounder, more tenacious D, hustles more, less TO's per game, and I can't say he is less clutch anymore considering how badly Melo chokes every year in playoffs (this will probably be 3rd year in a row in which he gets knocked out of first round in 5 games or less). Carter is the better player.
There are some really long posts that I was too lazy to read so I don't really know what the argument is now but going back to the original topic I'd have to say I'd take Melo. He's more clutch and a lot tougher than Vince is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ May 2 2006, 02:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Nitro, he isn't arguing about who is better. He's arging about who is the better scorer.</div>I have realized that, although he also commented on rebounds and such, just kind of brushing those off. And once again, VC is far more versatile as a scorer, just as efficient as melo when on teams where he is sole option for 15-30PPG scoring, and he has the "it" factor that Kobe and T-Mac have, where he can turn it on.
Why is it so important that Vince can score in spurts? That means he also goes on droughts. Why would you take a streaky scorer over a consistent one.and you keep saying he is a more versatile scorer. That doesn't matter, bc Carmelo is getting the job done, and scoring more then Vince.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 2 2006, 10:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Why is it so important that Vince can score in spurts? That means he also goes on droughts. Why would you take a streaky scorer over a consistent one.and you keep saying he is a more versatile scorer. That doesn't matter, bc Carmelo is getting the job done, and scoring more then Vince.</div>You can say that about Kobe, T-Mac, AI, Pierce, etc... A consistent 25PPG scorer will only get you so far, a streakier scorer who can get same amount of PPG in same system, who can take over games and single handedly beat teams with scoring is a better scorer and a much more dangerous player. VC has proven time and time again that in a system where he is only real scoring threat he can get job done, efficiently and dynamically, so I'm not even arguing this anymore.Oh, it does matter. Melo has no outside jump shot, and good low post defenses will shut Melo down. Just look at what the Clips did to Melo. A more versatile scorer who is streakier will be cold all day from midrange and going to basket, then hit 6 or 7 3 pointers and still score 30 points. Being a versatile scorer makes you invincable to any defense, and makes you unstoppable. of course, if defense is amazing in low post, and your 3 point shot is cold, then you're gonna have a bad game (like how bad VC was in Game 1 of playoffs, and LeBron in Game 2). But at least they have that option of shooting 3's and going on huge streaks, melo doesn't have that option.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Clutch_Melo_061 @ May 3 2006, 04:51 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Please do not mention Vince carter with tmac and kobe bryant [interms of scoring].</div>And why not? I love T-Mac but his FG % has been very low the past 3 seasons, and has only had 2 seasons with more than 27PPG, just like VC. As for Kobe, he's also an up and down scorer from year to year, but explosively, theya re very similar. VC's game is a slightly toned down version of T-Mac's and Kobe's.VC has proven he can score at least 27PPG, break franchise records with scoring, take over games with scoring, and have many 40-50 point games. He is one of the top 5 pure scorers in league, along with T-Mac, Kobe, Pierce, and Bron.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CB4AllStar @ Apr 26 2006, 06:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Carmelo is selfish. I watched him play in both games this playoffs and he refused to pass when there was under 2 minutes left even though he had been cold that whole quarter.Also I think his clutch ability is magnified when he made a few shots under clutch. It's not being clutch when you throw up bricks and when you are no where come playoff time.</div>How can you call Carmelo selfish. VC is the selfish one, calling the Raptors organization out ad all and not playing because he was in a bad situation up in Toronto.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 2 2006, 10:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can say that about Kobe, T-Mac, AI, Pierce, etc... A consistent 25PPG scorer will only get you so far, a streakier scorer who can get same amount of PPG in same system, who can take over games and single handedly beat teams with scoring is a better scorer and a much more dangerous player. VC has proven time and time again that in a system where he is only real scoring threat he can get job done, efficiently and dynamically, so I'm not even arguing this anymore.Oh, it does matter. Melo has no outside jump shot, and good low post defenses will shut Melo down. Just look at what the Clips did to Melo. A more versatile scorer who is streakier will be cold all day from midrange and going to basket, then hit 6 or 7 3 pointers and still score 30 points. Being a versatile scorer makes you invincable to any defense, and makes you unstoppable. of course, if defense is amazing in low post, and your 3 point shot is cold, then you're gonna have a bad game (like how bad VC was in Game 1 of playoffs, and LeBron in Game 2). But at least they have that option of shooting 3's and going on huge streaks, melo doesn't have that option.</div>There's the thing. Kobe, Pierce, T-Mac are all CONSISTENT scorers.How can you say that Melo has no outside jumpshot. the 15-18 foot jumper is one of his strongpoints. good low post defenses? no. Melo played bad bc he has no shooters at all to open up the floor for him, and he got doubles every time he touched the ball. Your definition of a streaky scorer is obviously way different than mine, bc when your shot is off, it's off. you're not going to hit 6 or 7 freaking 3's if you can't hit anything else.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 3 2006, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There's the thing. Kobe, Pierce, T-Mac are all CONSISTENT scorers.How can you say that Melo has no outside jumpshot. the 15-18 foot jumper is one of his strongpoints. good low post defenses? no. Melo played bad bc he has no shooters at all to open up the floor for him, and he got doubles every time he touched the ball. Your definition of a streaky scorer is obviously way different than mine, bc when your shot is off, it's off. you're not going to hit 6 or 7 freaking 3's if you can't hit anything else.</div>No they aren't. T-Mac is shooting 40% this year. Last year, 43%. Year before, 41%. Kobe is shooting 45%, and last year and 2 years ago only 43%. Pierce had 2 seasons of under 41%, then last year he shot 45%, then this year 47%. VC is having a bad shooting year, but he takes 8 less shots than Kobe, 2 shots less than T-Mac, and about .5 a shot more than Pierce. And ALL of those 3 players are streak scorers and very dyamic, meaning they do EVERYTHING. Melo is only a good postup player, and doesn't have consistent 15ft+ game. Outside jumpshot meaning 3. He has a decent midrange game, 15-18ft out, but his strong point is his posting up. He didn't get doubled everytime he touched the ball, only in paint and at times when they thought he would drive. He had Boykins and Miller, among another shoote ror 2 that I am forgetting. He had Camby in post. Anotherwards, he had help. He didn't do well because Brand/Kaman wouldn't allow points in paint, and he was forced to shoot jumpshots, which he can't do consistently or very effectively. Streaky scorer doesn't mean hit 6 or 7 3's and nothing else, it means that they, for the most part, have fairly low FG %'s, but usually turn it up at certain points of games for their PPG average. Sometimes they will have unusually hot seasons (Pierce this year, T-Mac in 02-03, Kobe this year), but for the most part they usually don't keep it up the whole game. And when they do, they score over 40 points.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 3 2006, 07:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No they aren't. T-Mac is shooting 40% this year. Last year, 43%. Year before, 41%. Kobe is shooting 45%, and last year and 2 years ago only 43%. Pierce had 2 seasons of under 41%, then last year he shot 45%, then this year 47%. VC is having a bad shooting year, but he takes 8 less shots than Kobe, 2 shots less than T-Mac, and about .5 a shot more than Pierce. And ALL of those 3 players are streak scorers and very dyamic, meaning they do EVERYTHING. Melo is only a good postup player, and doesn't have consistent 15ft+ game. Outside jumpshot meaning 3. He has a decent midrange game, 15-18ft out, but his strong point is his posting up. He didn't get doubled everytime he touched the ball, only in paint and at times when they thought he would drive. He had Boykins and Miller, among another shoote ror 2 that I am forgetting. He had Camby in post. Anotherwards, he had help. He didn't do well because Brand/Kaman wouldn't allow points in paint, and he was forced to shoot jumpshots, which he can't do consistently or very effectively. Streaky scorer doesn't mean hit 6 or 7 3's and nothing else, it means that they, for the most part, have fairly low FG %'s, but usually turn it up at certain points of games for their PPG average. Sometimes they will have unusually hot seasons (Pierce this year, T-Mac in 02-03, Kobe this year), but for the most part they usually don't keep it up the whole game. And when they do, they score over 40 points.</div>Are you seriously calling Paul Pierce and Kobe streaky scorers? You're way off on that one buddy. Paul Pierce is arguably the most consistent scorer in the league. consistency doesn't show much correlation with shooting %, if at all. There's a difference between being streaky and getting hot at the end of games (like Pierce and Kobe do). Being streaky means that they are cold during other parts of the game.Did you watch the Clips-Nugs series. Melo got doubled once every other posession. Boykins was nearly ineffective, Miller can't shoot at all, Camby is not much at all on the offensive end, Buckner had his worst shooting performances of the year. He didn't have help that series.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 3 2006, 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Are you seriously calling Paul Pierce and Kobe streaky scorers? You're way off on that one buddy. Paul Pierce is arguably the most consistent scorer in the league. consistency doesn't show much correlation with shooting %, if at all. There's a difference between being streaky and getting hot at the end of games (like Pierce and Kobe do). Being streaky means that they are cold during other parts of the game.Did you watch the Clips-Nugs series. Melo got doubled once every other posession. Boykins was nearly ineffective, Miller can't shoot at all, Camby is not much at all on the offensive end, Buckner had his worst shooting performances of the year. He didn't have help that series.</div>Exactly, FG % doesn't show much. You probably don't watch too many Nets games, so I wouldn't talk. But, Kobe is a VERY streaky scorer. No doubt about that. He will go 9-33 one day, then go on a string of 40 point games next 3-4 games. Pierce isn't nearly as streaky as the other scorers, but when he gets hot he is fire too. As for most consistent scorer, definately LeBron. Most 30-39 point games, 48% shooting percentage, etc...Melo didn't show up. He was doubled in his comfort zones, and was allow to do wahtever he wanted outside of 15ft, but once he entered there, he was doubled. He is not a great shooter like VC, T-Mac, Kobe, and Pierce, and can't beat double teams like them. All of those players deal with double teams WAY more often than Melo, and all still do their job. If he was good that series, it would have opened up for teammates, but he sucked. He choked. He is not a great scorer. He isn't a better scorer than T-Mac, Kobe, VC, Pierce, Wade, Bron, AI, or Arenas. His comfort zone only stretches out to about 18ft, and unlike Wade, isn't the type of player that can force the issue and get his points.
I watch some nets games, enough to get the general idea. Kobe is FAR more consistent than Vince. It's no comparison. Pierce and Allen Iverson are the only players that scored atleast 15 points in every game they played all year.I agree, Melo didn't show up this year at all, but you're wrong about the double team thing. I watched every first half of the series, and sometimes more, and he got doubled the majority of the time.
No, he isn't far more consistent. Kobe has the 9-30 nights just like VC does. VC has broken Nets records for most 30 point games in a season (did it last year, despite playing only 57 games, don't know if he did this year). VC is a consistent scoring threat, and he ALWAYS get his points. And AI's FG % is always in low 40's, sometimes even in 30's, so while he always gets his points, he hurts his team by doing it. He always got doubled within 15ft, but never outside of that. I watched a lot of the series, and he couldn't get it going in his comfort zone. Great scorers can get it going even if there biggest weapon is not working.
i wouldn't say vince ALWAYS gets his points. He's an inconsistent player. And kobe may get a few 9-30 games, but they are not nearly as frequent as Vince's. With Vince, that happens about once every 3-4 games, it's not like that with Kobe. And i realize that Allen Iverson isn't as consistent bc he just shoots more in order to get those points. That's why i said paul was arguably the most consistent, not AI.And you apparently didn't watch the series very much, bc he got doubled outside of 15 ft PLENTY of times. i saw it with my own two eyes.
Right now, I would take Vince. He's a top scorer in this league, he's super athletic, he's passionate, and he's clutch. He's just a fierce competitor and a guy that can really put up 40+ on any given night and he's give it to you in every way. No telling what Melo will become, but he just simply can not get it done come playoff time. But he's obviously a top young star in this league. All three years he has "choked" in the playoffs and he seems too frustrated. I mean he can score in all ways, he is very big, and he isn't afraid to dunk on the big boys. He is one of the best SF's in the game in the post and he has hit his share of game winners last year. But he gets frustrated too easily and will try to take a game over instead of letting the game come to him.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (nba dogmatist @ May 3 2006, 11:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>i wouldn't say vince ALWAYS gets his points. He's an inconsistent player. And kobe may get a few 9-30 games, but they are not nearly as frequent as Vince's. With Vince, that happens about once every 3-4 games, it's not like that with Kobe. And i realize that Allen Iverson isn't as consistent bc he just shoots more in order to get those points. That's why i said paul was arguably the most consistent, not AI.And you apparently didn't watch the series very much, bc he got doubled outside of 15 ft PLENTY of times. i saw it with my own two eyes.</div>You don't watch too many Nets games, and probably don't look at box scores too much. If I really have to prove to you he doesn't shoot that poorly every 304 games, I will. Bottom line is the ebst scorers in NBA are all somewhat inconsistent, and will be on fire one night, and sometimes cold the next. But, they will always be most dangerous scorers and most feared, and double teamed everywhere on court. Melo can't get his points when he faces good low post defense, and if he is getting doubled at 15ft, forget it.I watched 75% of each game. He only got doubled outside of 15ft when the Clips were trying to trap or were putting on pressure, but normally in the half court offense he wasn't getting doubled much outside 15ft.I am done with this arguement. It is getting really tiring, and nothing more to say. Bottom line, IMO, is that VC is the more dangerous scorer, far better passer and playmaker, better rebounder, and more agressive on court. Therefor, I feel VC wins by quite a bit. I respect your opinion, Mr. MVP (congrats), but I see your VC bashing so often that it is hard not to argue with you for pages and pages about these debates.
