<div class="quote_poster">Quoting bballer768484:</div><div class="quote_post">Lebron isn't going to the Knicks, why would he want to play with ball hog marbury. If lebron should go anywhere or someone that might take him, it should be Chicago. First Mj, next lebron.</div> A ballhog?! Most ballhogs dont have 8.1 APG!! So then anyone who had less is an extreme ballhog right? he only keeps the ball to himself when no one else is producing and they need him to.
Again, I ask, where the hell are these rumors coming from? Neither LeBron or his agent have said anything about wanting to sign in New York. This is about as unsubstantiated a rumor as it gets. It's all conjecture, and no proof. LeBron is a gazillionaire regardless of where he plays. You actually think he cares if he's getting 10 gazillion dollars versus 15, and he'd abandon his hometown and his image just for that difference? It's ludicrous. And how many superstar players have played for the Knicks in their history? None of them would even qualify for top 20 all time. Their top 3 players in the history of the franchise are Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, and Walt Frazier. All of whom were drafted, not signed as free agents. In fact, can anyone name a single "superstar" caliber player who was acquired either through free agency or a trade? Bernard King and Earl Monroe are the only "star" players I can think of, but neither are superstars. Apparently, New York hasn't been as big a draw as some of you think. LeBron obviously can't be happy with what happened to end this season, but the guy is still young and only in the infancy of his career. He should know as well as anyone that it can take years to become a contender. Just 2 years ago, the Cavs were pathetic. For two consecutive years, they've just barely missed the playoffs. That's not a failure. That's about where we should have expected them to be.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting JWohl:</div><div class="quote_post">A ballhog?! Most ballhogs dont have 8.1 APG!! So then anyone who had less is an extreme ballhog right? he only keeps the ball to himself when no one else is producing and they need him to.</div> Assists aren't a measure of how unselfish a player is, you know. Iverson is, by far, the biggest ball-hog in the game, and he averaged about 8 assists a game. You have to have the ball in your hands in the first place to be able to get the assist. That said, I think the criticisms against Marbury are overstated. He's more scoring guard than point guard, but THAT isn't why the Knicks were losing so much this year. Cassell was very similar last year, and he was one of the top point guards in the game.
This is from an interview with cavs owner dan gilbert <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Q: What's the long-term plan for LeBron James? There have been rumors James will leave for the New York Knicks. Are you concerned about this possibility and what is your strategy on keeping him in Cleveland. A: The plan is that LeBron stays his entire career in Cleveland and we win multiple NBA championships building a team around him that complements his style of play. But this all starts with building an entire organization that does not accept mediocrity and a that's-OK mentality. We will create the culture and environment that attracts great talent on and off the court. This process can be messy. Think of surgery. It is bloody and painful. It also takes time to recover. But once the recovery is complete then you are generally glad you did the surgery and are much better off for it. The "LeBron is disgruntled/is leaving stories" did not come from LeBron or anyone else in his camp. It came from short-term thinkers and media entertainers posing as journalists. These people want to boost ratings, sell more newspapers or believe the west and east coast cities are in some way superior to places like "Cleveland" or "Detroit" and can't figure out why anyone (with a big name) would want to stay there. They are dead wrong and we will prove them wrong.</div> All these rumors are just coming from people speculating on what they expect or want Lebron to do. None of them are based on facts about what Lebron or anyone associated with him has said he wants. Until I hear LeBron himself or someone representing him say he wants out, I wont believe it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">Again, I ask, where the hell are these rumors coming from? Neither LeBron or his agent have said anything about wanting to sign in New York. This is about as unsubstantiated a rumor as it gets. It's all conjecture, and no proof. </div> There may be no substantial proof, it's a matter of perspective and reasoning. With the contract he'd get ifor playing in NY it balances the question of money out, that's all. So he won't choose Cleveland over New York solely because Cleveland offers more money, he can decide based on where he would prefer to play. It's a matter of reasoning. And New York is very, very appealing. And of course he wouldn't suggest moving to New York or LA publicly, he still has his "boys" or whatever in his hometown - it would create uncomfortable serious friction - not worth the damage it would blow to his image. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> LeBron is a gazillionaire regardless of where he plays. You actually think he cares if he's getting 10 gazillion dollars versus 15, and he'd abandon his hometown and his image just for that difference? It's ludicrous. </div> Bingo. He makes his money no matter where he goes. Ok. Then why go anywhere but New York? Hell, here in New York he can make that tad bit more money that sometimes makes the difference all the while playing in what is labeled as the greatest city in the world. Tell me, Durvasa. How many times have you been in New York, and for how long? Have you been in all 5 boroughs? Do you even realize what it would mean for LeBron to come here? It?d be an MJ situation to say the least. He?d be worshiped and idolized by young boys and men in Brooklyn, Staten Island, Manhattan, Queens, the Bronx ? all over New York. It?d be a great situation for him. Knowing New York I?d say that the fans would never turn their backs on him, unless he made either a vicious/stupid comment or he demanded a trade from New York, and LeBron is smart enough not to do that in New York ? most people are. Much like MJ once did he?d lead a basketball revolution (but this time in New York), kids would look up to him and strive to play like him. That is a serious honor, and it?s rare to find such a situation. As it stands New York is the birthplace of many NBA stars, he?d be the King of them [the future stars] all ? New York?s aspiring ballplayers would look at him like he?s a hero. It?s such an ideal situation. Now if you have been here in New York, if you have been to all 5 boroughs and you still disagree with that, then it must be a huge difference in perspective between the two of us. New York is the mecca of basketball, be it streetball or NBA ? it?s just basketball?s hometown in general. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post"> And how many superstar players have played for the Knicks in their history? None of them would even qualify for top 20 all time. Their top 3 players in the history of the franchise are Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, and Walt Frazier. All of whom were drafted, not signed as free agents. </div> Ok, so there aren't any top 20 guys. But you just named 3 top 30-40 guys. With them on that same team of 72-73 (championship winners) were: Dave DeBusschere, Earl Monroe, Jerry Lucas, Dick Barnett, and Bill Bradley. Debusschere, Frazier, Ewing, Reed and Monroe are all Hall-of-Famers. Not all of them were from the draft, Monroe and DeBusschere were acquired via trade (Monroe may have been signed, I don't remember for sure, but he did play 5 years in Baltimore, I know that). The Knicks also had Mark Jackson, Bernard King, Charles Oakley and other notables. The Knicks have had some great players over the years. Why in the world are you even making that point? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">In fact, can anyone name a single "superstar" caliber player who was acquired either through free agency or a trade? Bernard King and Earl Monroe are the only "star" players I can think of, but neither are superstars. Apparently, New York hasn't been as big a draw as some of you think.</div> Dave DeBusschere was a superstar, as was Jerry Lucas. Dick Barnett was also pretty damn good. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">LeBron obviously can't be happy with what happened to end this season, but the guy is still young and only in the infancy of his career. He should know as well as anyone that it can take years to become a contender. Just 2 years ago, the Cavs were pathetic. For two consecutive years, they've just barely missed the playoffs. That's not a failure. That's about where we should have expected them to be.</div> No one said he failed. He didn't, he's just unhappy and that's fine, especially considering his age. No one even made a point against that. The point made was that it was reported that there is consideration of him coming to New York, no one said it was a sure-thing. It's just a rumor, I'm saying that there may be some truth to it. I rarely believe the rumors I read, this time I find the slightest bit of exception is all.
I can't say much, but KA took the words right out of my mouth. Also Durvasa, Willis Reed was the MVP in 1970, how could he have not been a superstar? Also being the King of a place labeled the greatest city in the world makes it somewhat worthwhile for LeBron. I'm not saying he will or will not, I'm saying it's an interesting rumor and I hope it comes true!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting MrJ:</div><div class="quote_post">I can't say much, but KA took the words right out of my mouth. Also Durvasa, Willis Reed was the MVP in 1970, how could he have not been a superstar? Also being the King of a place labeled the greatest city in the world makes it somewhat worthwhile for LeBron. I'm not saying he will or will not, I'm saying it's an interesting rumor and I hope it comes true! </div> I didn't say they never had a superstar. Beyond Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, and Walt Frazier (all of whom I'm consider "superstar"-caliber), there simply hasn't been much there. Bernard King was very good, but he's hasn't even been considered good enough to make the top 50 all-time or the Hall of Fame up to this point.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting durvasa:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't say they never had a superstar. Beyond Patrick Ewing, Willis Reed, and Walt Frazier (all of whom I'm consider "superstar"-caliber), there simply hasn't been much there. Bernard King was very good, but he's hasn't even been considered good enough to make the top 50 all-time or the Hall of Fame up to this point.</div> King was a superstar-caliber player. That injury is what may have stopped him from getting more awards. Similarly to Grant Hill and Penny Hardaway.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">There may be no substantial proof, it's a matter of perspective and reasoning. With the contract he'd get ifor playing in NY it balances the question of money out, that's all. So he won't choose Cleveland over New York solely because Cleveland offers more money, he can decide based on where he would prefer to play. It's a matter of reasoning. And New York is very, very appealing. And of course he wouldn't suggest moving to New York or LA publicly, he still has his "boys" or whatever in his hometown - it would create uncomfortable serious friction - not worth the damage it would blow to his image.</div> It's a mixed bag playing in New York. There are some great things about New York, but for athletes it can be pretty harsh. Is there a fan-base which boos it's team MORE than that in New York? And the NY Post (Peter Vescey, in particular) has been dogging LeBron all season. I'm sure he'd love to wake up to that stuff every morning. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Bingo. He makes his money no matter where he goes. Ok. Then why go anywhere but New York? Hell, here in New York he can make that tad bit more money that sometimes makes the difference all the while playing in what is labeled as the greatest city in the world. </div> This doesn't make sense. Who's calling it the "greatest city in the world" other than you? If it's so great, where are all the blockbuster free-agent signings over the years? You have to go back all the way to the early 70s to come up with any. If we agree that making a little bit more money isn't a significant factor, than that basically strikes out the biggest thing New York has going for it. And after that, this "rumor" is simply a wild guess. Nothing more. Why don't you just say that every great player who's going through hard times with his current team is probably going to sign with New York by the same logic? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Tell me, Durvasa. How many times have you been in New York, and for how long? Have you been in all 5 boroughs? Do you even realize what it would mean for LeBron to come here? It?d be an MJ situation to say the least. He?d be worshiped and idolized by young boys and men in Brooklyn, Staten Island, Manhattan, Queens, the Bronx ? all over New York. It?d be a great situation for him. Knowing New York I?d say that the fans would never turn their backs on him, unless he made either a vicious/stupid comment or he demanded a trade from New York, and LeBron is smart enough not to do that in New York ? most people are.</div> Uh-huh. The Knicks greatest player (Patrick Ewing) was regularly hounded by New York "fans". So, after money, you're saying that LeBron will sign with New York because it will help fan is ego even more? Like money, LeBron is getting plenty of praise from fans wherever he signs. Cleveland is a small market, but LeBron is by far the biggest star in the game already. These kind of things have much less to do with market size than you think. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Much like MJ once did he?d lead a basketball revolution (but this time in New York), kids would look up to him and strive to play like him. That is a serious honor, and it?s rare to find such a situation. As it stands New York is the birthplace of many NBA stars, he?d be the King of them [the future stars] all ? New York?s aspiring ballplayers would look at him like he?s a hero. It?s such an ideal situation.</div> Good grief. There is no argument here. It's just fantasizing on what might be. This is not a legitimate rumor. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Now if you have been here in New York, if you have been to all 5 boroughs and you still disagree with that, then it must be a huge difference in perspective between the two of us. New York is the mecca of basketball, be it streetball or NBA ? it?s just basketball?s hometown in general.</div> I've only been to New York once or twice visiting relatives. Firstly, I think you have a hugely exaggerated perspective on the greatness of the city relative to most people. Don't assume LeBron is as in love with your city as you are. That is, unless you have some evidence of that, in which case I'd like you to share it. Secondly, you're acting like it's obvious LeBron will sign there. I think it's merely understandable that he could sign there, but that certainly doesn't make it likely as these rumors would have one to believe. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok, so there aren't any top 20 guys. But you just named 3 top 30-40 guys. With them on that same team of 72-73 (championship winners) were: Dave DeBusschere, Earl Monroe, Jerry Lucas, Dick Barnett, and Bill Bradley. Debusschere, Frazier, Ewing, Reed and Monroe are all Hall-of-Famers. Not all of them were from the draft, Monroe and DeBusschere were acquired via trade (Monroe may have been signed, I don't remember for sure, but he did play 5 years in Baltimore, I know that).</div> Every franchise has had its share of good players. The Knicks certainly don't stand out in that regard, though one would think that's the case given your raving about the city. Since the early 70s, name all the big free agent signings. Virtually every great player they've had since then (not many of them, by the way) were acquired either through the draft or through a trade. You speak of New York as being some huge attraction for superstar players, but history (and specifically and more importantly, recent history) simply does not bare that out. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">The Knicks also had Mark Jackson, Bernard King, Charles Oakley and other notables. The Knicks have had some great players over the years. Why in the world are you even making that point?</div> Bernard King was acquired through a trade. Mark Jackson was drafted. Oakley was acquired through a trade (he didn't ask to be traded to the Knicks). With all the money and fame and glory New York apparently has to offer players, again I ask where are the blockbuster free agent signings? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Dave DeBusschere was a superstar, as was Jerry Lucas. Dick Barnett was also pretty damn good.</div> They were all very good players, sure. Barnett wasn't exactly a great player who's situation is in any way comparable to LeBron's though. DeBusschere was acquired via trade. Lucas was a legitimate superstar who DID sign with New York in the twilight of his career. Again, not exactly comparable. Regardless, these are the best examples you could come up with, and they are from 35-40 years ago at a time when players weren't automatic millionaires and celebrities regardless of where they played. Really, that's not very convincing. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">No one said he failed. He didn't, he's just unhappy and that's fine, especially considering his age. No one even made a point against that. The point made was that it was reported that there is consideration of him coming to New York, no one said it was a sure-thing. It's just a rumor, I'm saying that there may be some truth to it. I rarely believe the rumors I read, this time I find the slightest bit of exception is all.</div> Ok. I thought you actually believed it will happen. To me, it seems like it's based on nothing but what you've said. If that's the case, it's a bogus rumor that doesn't really mean anything. It's as legitimate as me putting out a rumor that Garnett wants to be traded to Chicago, simply because it's a better market. Actually, that would make even more sense since its his hometown and Garnett has repeatedly fallen short of his goal in Minnesota and the Wolves don't look to be getting any better in the short term.
Honestly, all of this stuff is just fans of different teams overstating the importance their team and their city has on the NBA. As of right now, he only plays for one team, and that's the cavs. What do we really have here? A shoe contract? That's what we're going off of, a shoe contract? Everyone wants him to force a trade, but there is absolutely nothing that implies this would happen. I geuss this is what can be expected when a once in a lifetime talent comes around, but it's just overkill. I would bet my life that IF lebron leaves cleveland, it's after his contract is up, and if there's any city that has been known to attract superstars (real bonafied superstars, not just all-stars), it's LA, not new york.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bernard King was acquired through a trade. Mark Jackson was drafted. Oakley was acquired through a trade (he didn't ask to be traded to the Knicks). With all the money and fame and glory New York apparently has to offer players, again I ask where are the blockbuster free agent signings?</div> Ha. but you had originally questioned whom was acquired via trade or free agents. Make up your mind, will you please? I've only been to New York once or twice visiting relatives. Firstly, I think you have a hugely exaggerated perspective on the greatness of the city relative to most people. Don't assume LeBron is as in love with your city as you are. That is, unless you have some evidence of that, in which case I'd like you to share it. Secondly, you're acting like it's obvious LeBron will sign there. I think it's merely understandable that he could sign there, but that certainly doesn't make it likely as these rumors would have one to believe.[/quote <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">They were all very good players, sure. Barnett wasn't exactly a great player who's situation is in any way comparable to LeBron's though. DeBusschere was acquired via trade. Lucas was a legitimate superstar who DID sign with New York in the twilight of his career. Again, not exactly comparable. Regardless, these are the best examples you could come up with, and they are from 35-40 years ago at a time when players weren't automatic millionaires and celebrities regardless of where they played. Really, that's not very convincing.</div> Nonetheless don't trash the Knicks and their lack of blockbuster signings. Really, there haven't been too many free agent blockbuster signings if you put it in that way. I mean, every team has its years, right? In some years Phoenix had nobody then they get Nash - it's a matter of timing, it could have happened in New York over scattered time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Every franchise has had its share of good players. The Knicks certainly don't stand out in that regard, though one would think that's the case given your raving about the city. Since the early 70s, name all the big free agent signings. Virtually every great player they've had since then (not many of them, by the way) were acquired either through the draft or through a trade. You speak of New York as being some huge attraction for superstar players, but history (and specifically and more importantly, recent history) simply does not bare that out.</div> If the Knicks don't stand out then please name at least 4 other teams who had better player<u>s</u> over time. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Uh-huh. The Knicks greatest player (Patrick Ewing) was regularly hounded by New York "fans". So, after money, you're saying that LeBron will sign with New York because it will help fan is ego even more? Like money, LeBron is getting plenty of praise from fans wherever he signs. Cleveland is a small market, but LeBron is by far the biggest star in the game already. These kind of things have much less to do with market size than you think.</div> Yes, he was. Ewing was not the most loved when he did play. But Ewing had serious issues. He repeatedly spoke about money, demanded contracts, and said that all players play fro the money not for the game him included. You'll notice I said that we [Knicks fans] will treat LeBron fine so long as he doen't make stupid comments (much like Ewings). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It's a mixed bag playing in New York. There are some great things about New York, but for athletes it can be pretty harsh. Is there a fan-base which boos it's team MORE than that in New York? And the NY Post (Peter Vescey, in particular) has been dogging LeBron all season. I'm sure he'd love to wake up to that stuff every morning.</div> You're 100% right about Vescey and the mixed bag. But Vescey would really have to back off of LeBron if he arrives, I mean the paper wouldn't sell nicely and no one would go to his page online. Knicks fans may be rough, but we are loyal to our players and we do love most of them despite our....hate (TT not included ) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This doesn't make sense. Who's calling it the "greatest city in the world" other than you?</div> It's a common belief, I mean really. I do overrate New York, very much. But it is a common belief that New York is the premier city in the world. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If it's so great, where are all the blockbuster free-agent signings over the years? </div> I have gone over this about 5,000 times. Sports agents aren't dumb people, my friend. The common act is to threaten the player's original team with the enormous market of New York (or LA, whichever one). This way the team (usually being a small market in contrast to LA or NY) has to throw in tons of money. It's obviously quite effective, it's worked pretty damn often. It may not be working right now because no one is excited about the prospects of playing for the Dolan's, but a top-flite ballplayer would probably be happy to deal with him. I'm not saying the trade/signing is probable or even likely - just possible.[/quote] <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You have to go back all the way to the early 70s to come up with any. If we agree that making a little bit more money isn't a significant factor, than that basically strikes out the biggest thing New York has going for it. And after that, this "rumor" is simply a wild guess. Nothing more. Why don't you just say that every great player who's going through hard times with his current team is probably going to sign with New York by the same logic?</div> New York maintains the biggest thing it has going for it, the market and the people that it is composed of. ___ It all boils down to one's perspective of New York as a market, I have a different feeling from you Durvasa. It's not worth this anymore. I don't surrender, I'm calling a stalemate. I don't find the rumor to be probable, just possible.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Knicks Analyst:</div><div class="quote_post">Ha. but you had originally questioned whom was acquired via trade or free agents. Make up your mind, will you please?</div> In some instances, trades make sense to consider if the player was asked to be traded to a particular city. Like when Drexler said he wanted to be traded to Houston. I don't believe that happened with the examples you gave (Oakley, King). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nonetheless don't trash the Knicks and their lack of blockbuster signings. Really, there haven't been too many free agent blockbuster signings if you put it in that way. I mean, every team has its years, right? In some years Phoenix had nobody then they get Nash - it's a matter of timing, it could have happened in New York over scattered time. </div> True, perhaps it was unfair. All I was trying to say is that there's no proof that New York is this big attraction for players like LeBron. So, for someone to come up with this rumor just based on that idea, it doesn't make sense. As you say, I agree it's possible that it could happen. But there's no good reason to think it's likely. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If the Knicks don't stand out then please name at least 4 other teams who had better player<u>s</u> over time.</div> Houston - E. Hayes, M. Malone, Hakeem, Drexler, Barkley, McGrady LA - Baylor, West, Chamberlain, Magic, Kareem, Shaq, Kobe Boston - Cousy, Russell, Jones, Havlicek, Bird, McHale Philedelphia - Chamberlain, Cunningham, Dr. J, Barkley, Iverson All the players above are legitimate superstars. The Knicks have had only 3 players in their history which could fall in the same class (by that, I mean top 50 all time): Ewing, Reed, and Frazier. I simply haven't noticed in my time basketball players being in any special way attracted to New York. Players typically care much more about the quality of the organization itself and the personnel on the team, versus the actual city. San Antonio may not be as glamorous a city as New York, but it will have more attraction for free agents because of the quality of its organization and personnel. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> It all boils down to one's perspective of New York as a market, I have a different feeling from you Durvasa. It's not worth this anymore. I don't surrender, I'm calling a stalemate. I don't find the rumor to be probable, just possible.</div> I agree with your last sentence. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thought you actually considered it probable.
