CERN Finds “Significant” Cosmic Ray Cloud Effect

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Denny Crane, Aug 30, 2011.

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  1. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    I'd say you are at least as naive as he since you don't believe in the existence of honest men with courage.

    If I ever woke up with as negative and hopeless an outlook as you have, and as low an opinion of my fellow man, I'd just shoot myself.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 31, 2011
    #41
  2. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    Not too far off.

    They work for the nuclear industry.
     
    MARIS61, Aug 31, 2011
    #42
  3. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Uh, the Trilateral Commission?

    Here's an example of the process (NIH).

    barfo
     
    barfo, Aug 31, 2011
    #43
  4. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I don't even understand what you are trying to insinuate here. What is "their organization"?

    barfo
     
    barfo, Aug 31, 2011
    #44
  5. jlprk

    jlprk The ESPN mod is insane.

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    It's funny to read people who are always in favor of whatever will maximize profits for business, posting that scientists are biased in favor of their own economic good.

    Compared to businessmen, scientists are saints. To find the truth, I'll trust science over business any day.

    So where are your posts about how scentists working for the Defense Dept. are politically slanted and killing people just to earn a paycheck? I thought that you're against such things? Not consistent, are we?
     
    jlprk, Aug 31, 2011
    #45
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Denny Crane, Sep 1, 2011
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  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Dwight Eisenhower, in his famous "military industrial complex" speech also said:

    “Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers. The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present — and is gravely to be regarded.

    Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite.”
     
    Denny Crane, Sep 1, 2011
    #47
  8. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    barfo, Sep 1, 2011
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  9. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

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    Not only a giant conspiracy but one that cuts across all scientific disciplines since scientists from all fields sit on panels that award funding for climate research. Never mind that there are government sponsored studies that dispute AGW (the scientific merit of theses studies must have been so strong that they overcame the institutional bias).
     
    bluefrog, Sep 1, 2011
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  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I fully answered your strawman question, but you don't like the answer.
     
    Denny Crane, Sep 1, 2011
    #50
  11. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    My strawman question? That's amusing. I was asking what something you typed meant. That's not anywhere near the definition of a strawman.

    barfo
     
    barfo, Sep 1, 2011
    #51
  12. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

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    I think "Big Science" is the "their organization" he's referring to.

    From the links Denny provided "Big Science" includes but is not limited to:
    NASA
    NOAA
    NSF
    EPA
    IPCC
    American Meteorological Society
    National Center for Atmospheric Research
    The UK Meteorological Office
    World Wildlife Fund
    Woods Hole Research Center
    Potsdam Institute
    Climate Action Network
    America’s National Academy of Science
    German Marshall Fund
    National Environmental Trust
    United Nations Environmental Program
    World Meteorological Organization
    Pennsylvania State University
    Stanford University
    University of Chicago
    Havard University
    Yale University
    (basically all universities)
    Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research
    European Centre for Medium Range Weather Forecasting
    Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society
    Brookings Institute
    Scripps Oceanographic Institute
    ENRON
    Lehman Brothers
    The China Sustainable Energy Program
    The European Climate Foundation
    Foundation Center
    ClimateWorks
    California Environmental Associates
    Packard Foundation
    The Energy Foundation
    William and Flora Hewlett Foundation
    The Grousbeck Family Foundation
    The Kresge Foundation
    The McKnight Foundation
    The Mertz Gilmore Foundation
    The David and Lucile Packard Foundation
    The Pisces Foundation
    The Schmidt Family Foundation
    The TOSA Foundation
    Institute for the Study of the Globe at the University of Paris
     
    bluefrog, Sep 1, 2011
    #52
  13. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

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    Heh. I believe CERN would have to be near the top of any "big science" list.

    barfo
     
    barfo, Sep 1, 2011
    #53
  14. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    There you go. A list of "their organizations."

    I did answer your question by providing one example, climateworks.

    Like I've posted a few times now, follow the money. Every org on that list determine or assume AGW first, then fund the "science" to "prove" it.
     
    Denny Crane, Sep 1, 2011
    #54
  15. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

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    There are a few points you need to consider.

    - Climate research doesn't exist in it's own little bubble. It is subject to the same scrutiny and rigor as any other scientific discipline.

    - AGW is the dominant paradigm for climate research. Similar to plate tectonics with geology, string theory with theoretical physics or evolution with biology it has become the dominant paradigm because of empirical evidence, confirmed by numerous studies. There are competing theories, each supported by various studies, but they are disjointed and don't form cohesive picture of climate like AGW.

    - The "follow the money" argument you repeat implies that scientists conduct studies to support AGW simply because it will get them funding. The reality is that it is difficult to get funding for any research that goes against a dominant theory. If you submitted a proposal to disprove the theory of relativity you better have some damn good evidence and a bullet proof experiment to convince a panel of scientists to fund that study.

    - You fail to see (or admit) the "follow the money" applies to all climate research. There is a lot of funding (and less competition) from numerous organizations willing to pay for research that disproves AGW. Is this research not invalidated by the conflicts of interest? These scientists too claim more study (and money) are needed to see the big picture.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2011
    bluefrog, Sep 1, 2011
    #55
  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't fail to see conflicts of interest among industry funded researchers at all. I just don't see any distinction between the scientific brilliance of one over another. I've specifically asked whether some chemist at Dow Chemical is any less worth listening to about chemistry than some academic.

    In fact, I have fewer doubts about the industry guys because their work has to translate into real world results or the company goes under. Where the academic is highly tied to politics of the govt. kind.

    That said, I find it ridiculous to think the private sector scientists everywhere would bury their own observations of impending doom of the species. Quite the opposite if you consider GM pre govt. takeover being the world leader in ethanol and alternate fuel vehicles, BP doing a lot of alternative energy initiatives, and so on.
     
    Denny Crane, Sep 1, 2011
    #56
  17. bluefrog

    bluefrog Go Blazers, GO!

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    Is this just climate research or do you trust industry over academia in all research?

    Is Marlboro sponsored research on the hazards of smoking trustworthy because it has to translate into real world results?

    Also, your ignoring the fact that there is government sponsored research that does not support AGW and there's industry sponsored research which supports AGW. Which do we trust?

    Why does AGW have to equal " impending doom of the species"? You're buying into and perpetuating the sensationalism that hurts climate science.
     
    bluefrog, Sep 1, 2011
    #57
  18. Masbee

    Masbee -- Rookie of the Year

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    Masbee, Sep 1, 2011
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  19. Masbee

    Masbee -- Rookie of the Year

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    Money corrupts. That is universal. It is a neverending battle that all organization and instituions must wage.

    Money corruption is relative. Paycheck to paycheck working Joe's can be "bought" for far, far less than a captian of business who won't blink an eye unless there is $1 Billion in it for them.

    We are not talking about capitalists in this thread. That is another conversation. We are talking about BLIND trust of the institiutions of science.
     
    Masbee, Sep 1, 2011
    #59
  20. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't blindly trust either type of scientist more than the other, particularly.

    I don't exactly consider medicine to be science. It has a major statistical component to it vs the absolutes of science. Like you inject nicotine in 100 rats and 60% get cancer - it doesn't at all mean that the nicotine causes cancer. It means there's a 60% chance it may help induce it.

    Science is e=mc^2.

    I see the objective of the AGW crowd to make radical changes to society. It's almost entirely politically or philosophically motivated. Almost, because they're abusing science as the selling point for it.

    Take the IPCC, for example. The papers are written by scientists, then reviewed and EDITED by politicians. Even if this weren't true, the dire forecasts in it (like Gore's PowerPoint presentation) just aren't happening.

    The reliance upon data models to predict even short term reality flies in the face of reason. They don't work for simple things like a budget, the economy, vehicle safety, the weather... The climate is so ridiculously complex that it can't be modeled in any way that should be taken seriously.
     
    Denny Crane, Sep 1, 2011
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