Championship: Ohio State vs. Florida

Discussion in 'Men's College Basketball' started by tracymcgrady_01, Apr 1, 2007.

  1. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well the thing is, you need some sort of argument behind those predictions. With the "second coming of Robinson" statements, people are basing it around their similar games and his potential. It at least has some validity because of that reasoning. As a prospect, he's much more promising than Bosh or Amare were at this stage. He's more developed, has a better frame, and has produced more at this stage. So, while there's nothing wrong with predicting that he won't be as good as those players, or that there's no way he'll be a HOFer, you need to provide some sort of explanation. Otherwise that prediction is as arbitrary and pointless as that dude saying he'll be better than Ewing.</div>
    Coming out of college David Robinson was much better than Oden though. Although they might play similarly, like you said, it doesn’t mean he’ll replicate any of Robinson’s success. Robinson was an MVP, scored 71 points in a game, and even in college holds the all-time record for blocked shots with 14. I don’t think having similar games gives that reasoning any validity. Adam Morrison and Mike Dunleavy were said to have similar games to Larry Bird too.

    It’s hard to compare Amare and Oden since Amare, after dominating high school, went pro while Oden went to college. Physically speaking, Oden is a much better prospect than Bosh but lacks the skills Bosh had, namely his shooting, ball handling, passing, etc. When faced with players who are physically comparable to him, Oden has the tendency to struggle. In college, he could usually get his way being much taller and stronger than the opposition but he’s going to have a tougher time bullying his way in the post. He’s also too dependent on sheer athleticism, which doesn’t always cut it in the next level. Bosh and Amare’s skills coupled with their athleticism is why I’m rating them higher than Oden. I’m not setting it in stone or anything; it’s just my feeling that Oden won’t be as good as Bosh and Amare, who are already two of the best bigs in the NBA.

    Even if you consider him better prospects than Amare and Bosh at this stage, it’s kind of irrelevant since both prospects exceeded their expectations. Don’t get me wrong, I do see him being a great player in the NBA and a perennial all-star, especially with the dearth of quality big men, but to already call him better than Ewing, a Hall of Fame center, is ridiculous and premature to say the least. What evidence is there to support my claim? Not much since he hasn’t played a game in the NBA yet. Conversely, there is no significant evidence suggesting he’ll be good enough to garner a spot in the Hall of Fame. At least not higher than Ewing or Robinson, who are regarded as the top 4-7 best centers in the history of the game.
     
  2. Chutney

    Chutney MON-STRAWRRR!!1!

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    <div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Coming out of college David Robinson was much better than Oden though. Although they might play similarly, like you said, it doesn?t mean he?ll replicate any of Robinson?s success. Robinson was an MVP, scored 71 points in a game, and even in college holds the all-time record for blocked shots with 14. I don?t think having similar games gives that reasoning any validity. Adam Morrison and Mike Dunleavy were said to have similar games to Larry Bird too.

    It?s hard to compare Amare and Oden since Amare, after dominating high school, went pro while Oden went to college. Physically speaking, Oden is a much better prospect than Bosh but lacks the skills Bosh had, namely his shooting, ball handling, passing, etc. When faced with players who are physically comparable to him, Oden has the tendency to struggle. In college, he could usually get his way being much taller and stronger than the opposition but he?s going to have a tougher time bullying his way in the post. He?s also too dependent on sheer athleticism, which doesn?t always cut it in the next level. Bosh and Amare?s skills coupled with their athleticism is why I?m rating them higher than Oden. I?m not setting it in stone or anything; it?s just my feeling that Oden won?t be as good as Bosh and Amare, who are already two of the best bigs in the NBA.

    Even if you consider him better prospects than Amare and Bosh at this stage, it?s kind of irrelevant since both prospects exceeded their expectations. Don?t get me wrong, I do see him being a great player in the NBA and a perennial all-star, especially with the dearth of quality big men, but to already call him better than Ewing, a Hall of Fame center, is ridiculous and premature to say the least. What evidence is there to support my claim? Not much since he hasn?t played a game in the NBA yet. Conversely, there is no significant evidence suggesting he?ll be good enough to garner a spot in the Hall of Fame. At least not higher than Ewing or Robinson, who are regarded as the top 4-7 best centers in the history of the game.</div>
    Well Oden averaged 15.7 ppg and 9.6 rpg, but you have to keep in mind that its still his freshman year. David Robinson only averaged 7.6 and 3.9 (although in considerably fewer minutes). A better comparison would be Shaq, who played basically the same amount of minutes and averaged 13.9 and 12. Both players had much more dominant numbers in their 2nd year. I don't think its much of a stretch to say that if Oden returned next season he could dominate like they did (keep in mind that he's playing on a better team and he doesn't get all the touches either). So not only does he have a similar game/body, but he's put up similar production and (unlike Morrison or Dunleavy) he has the athleticism, work ethic, and mental toughness to make those skills translate in the next level.

    I think you're making the mistake of not distinguishing the different positions that Bosh, Amare, and Oden play. While Bosh was definitely a very skilled and versatile prospect coming out of college, that was because he's a forward. Things like Bosh's extended shooting range and his ability to put the ball on the floor don't apply as much to the center position. In contrast, Oden's not all athleticism at the 5 spot. He's a fundamentally sound big man, who gets great position (both in posting up and in rebounding) and has excellent timing. He's a pretty good passer for a center as well, so I'd argue that he's a prospect that isn't simply raw athleticism (like Dwight or Amare were).

    Don't worry man, I never agreed with predicting that he'll be better than Ewing either. Its way too arbitrary and random to justify. But what I was asking for was an argument, not evidence, to back up those predictions. Its one thing to say that you don't think he'll exceed expectations or be as good as everyone thinks, but you need to back it up with something. Otherwise its as pointless as that dude saying he'll be better than Ewing. Those HOF predictions may be optimistic and a bit premature, but they can be justified a little, when you look at what Oden's shown and how much potential he still has.
     
  3. elevate

    elevate JBB JustBBall Member

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    thank you all for posting 5 paragraph essays in each of your posts. thats really gonna grab a readers interest lmfao
     
  4. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Well Oden averaged 15.7 ppg and 9.6 rpg, but you have to keep in mind that its still his freshman year. David Robinson only averaged 7.6 and 3.9 (although in considerably fewer minutes). A better comparison would be Shaq, who played basically the same amount of minutes and averaged 13.9 and 12. Both players had much more dominant numbers in their 2nd year. I don't think its much of a stretch to say that if Oden returned next season he could dominate like they did (keep in mind that he's playing on a better team and he doesn't get all the touches either). So not only does he have a similar game/body, but he's put up similar production and (unlike Morrison or Dunleavy) he has the athleticism, work ethic, and mental toughness to make those skills translate in the next level.

    I think you're making the mistake of not distinguishing the different positions that Bosh, Amare, and Oden play. While Bosh was definitely a very skilled and versatile prospect coming out of college, that was because he's a forward. Things like Bosh's extended shooting range and his ability to put the ball on the floor don't apply as much to the center position. In contrast, Oden's not all athleticism at the 5 spot. He's a fundamentally sound big man, who gets great position (both in posting up and in rebounding) and has excellent timing. He's a pretty good passer for a center as well, so I'd argue that he's a prospect that isn't simply raw athleticism (like Dwight or Amare were).

    Don't worry man, I never agreed with predicting that he'll be better than Ewing either. Its way too arbitrary and random to justify. But what I was asking for was an argument, not evidence, to back up those predictions. Its one thing to say that you don't think he'll exceed expectations or be as good as everyone thinks, but you need to back it up with something. Otherwise its as pointless as that dude saying he'll be better than Ewing. Those HOF predictions may be optimistic and a bit premature, but they can be justified a little, when you look at what Oden's shown and how much potential he still has.</div>
    I'm very impressed with Oden's rookie season too. I can't say much about Amare and Dwight since since none went to college, but in terms of athleticism I would rank them over Oden. I guess it's more of an opinion thing especially at this stage. I don't think they'll be that much better though.
     
  5. XSV

    XSV JBB The Virve Dynasty

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    <div class="quote_poster">MrJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm very impressed with Oden's rookie season too. I can't say much about Amare and Dwight since since none went to college, but in terms of athleticism I would rank them over Oden. I guess it's more of an opinion thing especially at this stage. I don't think they'll be that much better though.</div>

    I'm not sure how many times you have watched Oden play, but you obviously just tuned into some of the tourny games where he got into foul trouble. The man is a beast who can shoot free-throws and like playing back-to the-basket. He is the best shot-blocker in the college ball and maybe in the world right now. Will he be the nest D-Rob? He definitely has the potential to be. He's already better than most big men were at this age, and with his athelticism, size, strength, skills and work ethic, I could definitely see him putting up Shaq-like numbers in the NBA.
     
  6. Voodoo Child

    Voodoo Child Can I Kick It?

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    <div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure how many times you have watched Oden play, but you obviously just tuned into some of the tourny games where he got into foul trouble. The man is a beast who can shoot free-throws and like playing back-to the-basket. He is the best shot-blocker in the college ball and maybe in the world right now. Will he be the nest D-Rob? He definitely has the potential to be. He's already better than most big men were at this age, and with his athelticism, size, strength, skills and work ethic, I could definitely see him putting up Shaq-like numbers in the NBA.</div>

    Agreed. Oden has more than proven himself this season. I love how everyone's forming their opinions of him based on two or three over-officiated games.

    I think the David Robinson comparison is off though, but it's not because he doesn't have the ability to make that impact. I just think his game more resembles a Dekembe Mutumbo with a better post-up game. Maybe if you take a poor man's David Robinson on offense and Deke in his prime on defense, then you've got what Oden could develop into.
     
  7. Mr. J

    Mr. J Triple Up

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    <div class="quote_poster">XSV Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure how many times you have watched Oden play, but you obviously just tuned into some of the tourny games where he got into foul trouble. The man is a beast who can shoot free-throws and like playing back-to the-basket. He is the best shot-blocker in the college ball and maybe in the world right now. Will he be the nest D-Rob? He definitely has the potential to be. He's already better than most big men were at this age, and with his athelticism, size, strength, skills and work ethic, I could definitely see him putting up Shaq-like numbers in the NBA.</div>
    I guess I haven't watched enough Oden if I can conclude Dwight Howard, who is comparable in size, strength, and athleticism, and Amare Stoudemire, who I think is more athletic and more skilled, will have slightly better careers than Oden.

    If you read my posts, I already acknowledged him transitioning well into the NBA. I just don't feel he has shown enough for everyone to conclude him having a Hall of Fame career before he even gets drafted. Shaq-like numbers? Shaq has averaged roughly 26/12/3 with 2.5 blocks throughout his career, which I think Oden is incapable of doing, being 75 pounds less with poor footwork in comparison to Shaq.

    Best shotblocker in the world right now? I don't think so. For one, I remember Okafor being a better shotblocker in college than Oden. He has the potential to be though.

    Like I said, Oden will be good, but it's way too early to start calling him a lcok for Hall of Fame like many are doing.
     
  8. XSV

    XSV JBB The Virve Dynasty

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    You're talking about this guy as if he's a senior, but he's only a freshman. Not many freshman big-men have dominated the game like Oden did this year, and against a pretty talented stock of bigmen on top of that. Oden may not have recorded as many blocks as some guys, but its because he is such an intimidating presence down low, guards are afraid to take it strong to the hoop against him. I'd say he's already a better shot-blocker than Okafor.
     

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