Politics Chaos in the Democratic presidential primary

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Denny Crane, Dec 18, 2015.

  1. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    You and I wrote Planned Parenthood checks for $500M last year. And every year prior since 1970.

    Cash money.

    Obama gave a car company to the union that spent many millions and helped get him elected.

    I think the disagreement is you want some oxen gored and I want all or none.
     
  2. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Completely unscientific

    upload_2015-12-19_19-20-47.png
     
  3. Further

    Further Guy

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    NO, I simply want money out of politics. So that $500 won't be what determines who gets a car company or anything else. Either PP is able to use logic and reason to persuade policy, or perhaps the threat that they have supporters who will vote in accordance with PP's best interest. But, not because PP is able to make big donations to the campaigns of certain candidates.

    The car company can take the same, or a different route, I just don't think it should be based on favors possibly reliant on campaign assets. Hopefully with capital removed from politics, decisions will start to get made based on what's best for the electorate and not based on what's best for the donors.
     
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  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    With the amount of money the government spends comes a ridiculous amount of power. The government can buy Apple 4 times over with one year's worth of tax revenues.

    As long as you give this kind of power to politicians, they're going to sell it. To Planned Parenthood and to GE.

    The NRA has supporters who will vote in accordance with the NRA's best interests. Want that ox gored?
     
  5. Further

    Further Guy

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    So let's take that ability away. We are not doomed to repeat our past, but we must learn from it and change.
     
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    You can't have your cake and eat it too.

    You can't "take it away" and have big government. It's impossible.

    The system, with or without money, incentivizes politicians to do whatever they can to get reelected. The power they wield is so ham handed that the people (in any form: union, corporation, non-profit) have to have some ability to drive the process.

    You're complaining about $2B or $3B in money spent on elections and all the lobbying when there's $16T spent in Obama's first term? It's money well spent. Without it, the candidates wouldn't be vetted much at all.
     
  7. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Zoning commissioner walks into a bar. Tells the owner, "pay me or I'll zone the street in front of the bar as 10 minute loading zone."

    The corollary, is you and I each own a bar and I pay the commissioner to zone the street in front of your bar as 10 minute loading zone.

    Power at the local level. Multiply that by $trillions and you have the federal government.
     
  8. Further

    Further Guy

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    Don't see it as impossible at all. You are connecting two things that aren't connected. And, you are saying on one hand it's impossible to separate the money in politics from big govt, and on the other hand the money is so tiny comparatively that it's inconsequential. Those two hands don't jive.

    But, let's take a look for a moment at what would happen if national elections (to start) were not donor driven. The elected politicians would still spend the money, they would still (even more so) try and appease the electorate, they simply wouldn't need to make stupid concessions to get the required money to run the campaign. Some stupid concessions would still need to be made to sway blocks of voters, but that Sheldon Allison or George Soros vote would be weighted the same, or at least closer to that of the average voter. Perhaps Sheldon and George would still have a modicum more sway than I do, mostly because they employee many people and so a politician might see them as valuable from that perspective, but not just because they have deep pockets to fund fund fund.

    Small government politicians would find it easier to remain small government politicians, big government politicians would find it just as easy to be truer to themselves. But they could actually appropriate those funds where they felt it was most worthy, not into the pockets of those who had helped them get elected. Or at least, they could try and appropriate the funds in accordance with the wishes of the electorate and not in accordance of the pockets of the biggest donors. The sway of the NRA or the Teachers Union would still exist because they are huge organizations representing large blocks of voters, but that sway would be somewhat reduced because their power would end at the size of the voter block in not at the size of their pocketbook.

    You tend to say that the 2-3B dollars is a pittance compared to the trillions the govt spends, so it doesn't matter, but the big problem is that it's those groups that spend that 2-3B are able to get preferential treatment in earning money off the Govt spending those trillions.
     
  9. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    I can buy 40 apples for about 3 bucks
     
  10. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    What would happen is democrats and republicans would divvy up the public money in ways to keep others from challenging them. Hillary would get 99% of the money, Sanders less than 1%. The concept of government controlling who has political speech is appalling.

    You would still have other issues, like MSNBC being a 24/7 campaign ad for democrats and Fox News being one for republicans. That's a form of donation without actually writing checks. What are you going to do when all the people who donate now simply buy networks and newspapers to get their message out?

    They still would take bribes, bribes, and more bribes.
     
  11. MARIS61

    MARIS61 Real American

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    I don't favor any organizations, nor do any speak for my particular views, nor do any work to improve my particular situation in life. Pretty much all of them work against me and mine, and then bill me through the IRS for their lobbying expenses.

    Lobbying of any sort absolutely precludes Democracy.
     
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  12. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Who did you vote for in the last election for school board?

    LOL
     
  13. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    Here only one person was on the ballot
     
  14. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    Why did you vote for him (or her)?
     
  15. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    I know the person but if I didn't, I might have left it blank or done some research. Nobody tried to sway me to vote one way or the other..I guess that's my point
     
  16. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    My point is Democracy isn't all it's cracked up to be. Most people, by far, don't know the person nor do the research.
     
  17. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko Staff Member Global Moderator

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    I will be your King if you want.

    barfo
     
  18. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

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    I don't see you as the king type. Court jester perhaps. Or servant.
     
  19. MarAzul

    MarAzul LongShip

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    And there we have it, the big problem with Democracy. It allows every one qualified or not to vote the wrong way, possible wrong for several reason, apathy, lazy, wrong headed, greed and more. Only by arming one's self with information, which means work, can we hope to get it right.

    About 15 years ago, we had a measure here in Coos County to pay for a Gas Pipeline. It was to provide jobs, and natural gas for residents, although there were no industries committed to come here, it passed. It passed mostly by renters, as most of the property owners voted no, or those that could vote. A large percentage of property owners are nonresidents and can't vote, they can only pay.

    Not one industry has come to take advantage of the pipeline, so zero jobs were created, and even more egregious there was no commitment to provide natural gas to the residential areas, so this never happened either. So I find it wrong when people that ought to be able to vote, are ruled out, and at the same time people with no skin in the game, do get the vote. Those with little skin in the game are the one's most likely to be persuaded to serve and agenda. It costs them little. Mean while, the properties owners are now out around two thousand a peace for zero benefit.
     
  20. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

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    That sucks MarAzul but in my case, the school board did function and my vote wouldn't have mattered if I did research or left it blank...there was no other choice
     

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