<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Commissioner @ Mar 31 2007, 01:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Who ever picked Bosh got to be stupid. Dwight Howard is the next BIG THING. He is the next great center that will be a champion/MVP of the league. The guy is still developing and he's going to be a monster in the future. By the way, did yall see Magic/Pacers game last night? If you didnt watch the highlights...</div> It's not a complete domination by Dwight Howard. In just four years in the league Chris Bosh's offensive game has come to life. He has found his game and this is great for a player so early in his career to find. He can hone his offensive game and continue to crash the boards and work on defense. Dwight Howard will IMO better than Bosh due to his prescence on the court being much greater than Bosh's but as of right now CB4 is better. I don't think that Dwight Howard will blow Bosh away in the future, DH has to continue to improve his game on the offensive end if he really wants to be great.
if I were a gm of a team, id rather have dwight howard. he's still not yet fully comftorable or w/e yet and he reminds me of a smaller shaq. he'll be really good.
Good analysis K-Mar.It's close but IMO it's Bosh's ability to get a basket in crunch time that makes him the player to take.he's hit clutch 3's at the end of the game for crying out loud.If you need a basket to tie or go ahead, whom would you pick?Howard doesn't have a reliable move to get that basket.Defensively Howard is better, but Bosh isn't a slouch himself.Howard's skill look more impressive because of his athleticism, but Bosh is more effective and has more options.I'd put Amare in between Bosh and Howard in ranking but it's a close 3 way race IMO.If Al Jefferson continues to improve like he has this year, there will be 4 very good young PF's to compare next year.
Everybody knows Bosh is the superior offensive player and Dwight Howard is the superior defender, whoever works harder on the other portion of their game will be the better player and thats where the debate is and since Dwight is such a physical freak people give him the edge for the future.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Apr 3 2007, 11:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Everybody knows Bosh is the superior offensive player and Dwight Howard is the superior defender, whoever works harder on the other portion of their game will be the better player and thats where the debate is and since Dwight is such a physical freak people give him the edge for the future.</div>which is kinda silly given all of the 'physical freaks' that have come into the league but never really developed the skills necessary to take their game to the next level.Bosh has shown an improvement in skills to go with his speed and athleticism.Bosh is still the pick IMO and will be 5, 8 years from now to, so long as he remains healthy
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Apr 3 2007, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Everybody knows Bosh is the superior offensive player and Dwight Howard is the superior defender, whoever works harder on the other portion of their game will be the better player and thats where the debate is and since Dwight is such a physical freak people give him the edge for the future.</div>Chris Bosh is also a physical freak, but he has a very polished jumper, and overall offensive game. He is so versatile on offense, if he can get a good post game going, he may become the best offensive big man in the game. I think Chris will always be better on offense personally. Dwight gets 1-2 more rebounds per game, but 1 more rebound isn't really a big deal to me. Defensively, Dwight is farther ahead, but Bosh is getting better. He is good at getting in position, and taking charges, and he can block some shots too. I think he needs to be tougher inside though. He is definately not a presence on the other end like Dwight, Tim Duncan, Ben Wallace, etc... are...Overall, I would give Bosh the edge because his offensive game is much more developed, and he is much more of a go to guy offensively. In the future, I think it will be close but Dwight will probably be better overall.
I don't know why you guys are making such a big deal about Dwight defensively. He is a physical presence, but that's about it. He is NOT a great defensive player. He cannot lock you down, he does not block a lot of shots, and he likes to roam a lot. Bosh is close to Dwight in both rebounding and defense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 3 2007, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know why you guys are making such a big deal about Dwight defensively. He is a physical presence, but that's about it. He is NOT a great defensive player. He cannot lock you down, he does not block a lot of shots, and he likes to roam a lot. Bosh is close to Dwight in both rebounding and defense.</div>I have noticed you keep wanting ot use alot of stats these days, I think your slipping. He averages nearly two a game, at 1.9 blocks per game, which is always a good amount in the NBA. The thing he brings, is you can anchor a defense around him do to his shot altering. He might not block alot of shots, but his leaping ability, height and strength combined with his ability to rotate on defense have cause him to be better for anchoring a defense around than Bosh. He causes the other teams slashers to change their shots in the paint alot more than Bosh does, which has helped the Magic have such a strong team defense this year. He is a huge reason why they are one of the better defensive teams in the league, not only do they keep lots of the teams in the league at low points per game, he is the main reason why most teams have bad shooting nights against the Magic, especially compared to the Magic. They get harder scoring oppurtunities in the paint and near the goal with Howard there, combared to with Bosh there. Man to man wise, Howard is stronger, doesn't get pushed around by the bigger guys in the league as easily. If you want proof of how good his man to man is, just look at both Phoenix games. When he was in Stoudemire was having a hard time scoring in both games. When he was out of the game, Stoudemire was able to tear up the Magic rather easily. Howard is a better man to man defensive player than lots of you guys are giving credit for, and in my opinion better than Bosh is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Apr 3 2007, 07:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I have noticed you keep wanting ot use alot of stats these days, I think your slipping. He averages nearly two a game, at 1.9 blocks per game, which is always a good amount in the NBA. The thing he brings, is you can anchor a defense around him do to his shot altering. He might not block alot of shots, but his leaping ability, height and strength combined with his ability to rotate on defense have cause him to be better for anchoring a defense around than Bosh. He causes the other teams slashers to change their shots in the paint alot more than Bosh does, which has helped the Magic have such a strong team defense this year. He is a huge reason why they are one of the better defensive teams in the league, not only do they keep lots of the teams in the league at low points per game, he is the main reason why most teams have bad shooting nights against the Magic, especially compared to the Magic. They get harder scoring oppurtunities in the paint and near the goal with Howard there, combared to with Bosh there. Man to man wise, Howard is stronger, doesn't get pushed around by the bigger guys in the league as easily. If you want proof of how good his man to man is, just look at both Phoenix games. When he was in Stoudemire was having a hard time scoring in both games. When he was out of the game, Stoudemire was able to tear up the Magic rather easily. Howard is a better man to man defensive player than lots of you guys are giving credit for, and in my opinion better than Bosh is.</div>For someone of his size with the athleticism he has, 1.9BPG is not a lot at all. Most of the elite big men in the league trump him in blocks per game. As I said, he is a presence, and just because of his size he will make people think twice of coming into the paint. He will anchor your defense, and as I said in my first post, I'd take him on defense over Bosh for this reason alone. With that said, Dwight is not a great defender by any means. As I said, he does not block a ton of shots, nor will he lock down an opposing big man. At the same time, Bosh is not a bad defender. This year Bosh has really stepped up his defense, and while he is skinny as a post, he can hold his own vs. some of the top big men in the league.In the first game vs Phoenix, Amare forced him to foul out (Dwight scored 4pts and had 3reb, while at the same time Amare dropped 30/8). Howard has been outplayed badly a number of times in head to head matchups this year (especially by Bosh, who has tore the Magic up this year). Howard is not a bad defender at all, and his presence alone is a big reason why I take him defensively over Bosh, but in terms of defense and rebounding, Bosh and Dwight aren't too far apart.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 3 2007, 08:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>In the first game vs Phoenix, Amare forced him to foul out (Dwight scored 4pts and had 3reb, while at the same time Amare dropped 30/8). Howard has been outplayed badly a number of times in head to head matchups this year (especially by Bosh, who has tore the Magic up this year). Howard is not a bad defender at all, and his presence alone is a big reason why I take him defensively over Bosh, but in terms of defense and rebounding, Bosh and Dwight aren't too far apart.</div>Very few of those fouls in the first game came from Amare Stoudemire, they came from him rotating over. When he was on Stoudemire he was able to keep in front of Stoudemire and force him into bad times, without getting to many fouls from just Stoudemire.Furthermore, presence is part of defense, and his presence is much more felt than Bosh's presence is felt defensively. Him having a huge presence in the paint defensively compared to Bosh's is a huge deal. Anytime you can anchor a defense like that, it gives you another edge that the other teams guy does not have.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Apr 3 2007, 08:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Very few of those fouls in the first game came from Amare Stoudemire, they came from him rotating over. When he was on Stoudemire he was able to keep in front of Stoudemire and force him into bad times, without getting to many fouls from just Stoudemire.Furthermore, presence is part of defense, and his presence is much more felt than Bosh's presence is felt defensively. Him having a huge presence in the paint defensively compared to Bosh's is a huge deal. Anytime you can anchor a defense like that, it gives you another edge that the other teams guy does not have.</div>I only watched parts of this game (due to very, very crappy internet connection) so I cannot go into full detail as much as you can. But 4pts and 3reb to Amare's 30/8 speaks for itself. Badly outplayed head to head.Despite Dwight's presence, both teams give up same amount of % of close range shots. Interestingly enough, when Dwight is on the floor, teams score more points than when he is off the court. Teams also shoot higher FG % when he is on court (both of these are untrue for the Raptors and Bosh). Presence is huge, but in terms of defensive skills, Dwight is far from great. He is not a great help defender (ala Ben Wallace or Greg Oden), nor can he lock another great post player down. I agree dwight is the better defender and rebounder, but the gap is smaller than most feel it is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 3 2007, 08:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I only watched parts of this game (due to very, very crappy internet connection) so I cannot go into full detail as much as you can. But 4pts and 3reb to Amare's 30/8 speaks for itself. Badly outplayed head to head.Despite Dwight's presence, both teams give up same amount of % of close range shots. Interestingly enough, when Dwight is on the floor, teams score more points than when he is off the court. Teams also shoot higher FG % when he is on court (both of these are untrue for the Raptors and Bosh). Presence is huge, but in terms of defensive skills, Dwight is far from great. He is not a great help defender (ala Ben Wallace or Greg Oden), nor can he lock another great post player down. I agree dwight is the better defender and rebounder, but the gap is smaller than most feel it is.</div>You can say badly outplayed, but Stoudemire barely even scored when Howard was on the court. When Howard was not on the court he got by Milicic and Battie fairly easily. The next game they played, Stoudemire was kept to 12 points, Howard stayed by him and kept Stoudemire from being able to take alot of shots. I don't know where you get your statistics from, but they are wrong. Teams shoot 46 percent against the Raptors compared the the Magic where teams shoot 44 percent. Now lots of people will say 2 percent is not much, but over the course of the game that is up four points more per game. At an NBA level four points can mean alot. And since they both hold teams to 35 percent from long range, that has to be made up somewhere, and inside the paint near the arc is that area. As for the teams shooting a higher percentage, I have never seen a stat that says that at all. That seems like a baseless claim, so where have you seen that? Everytime I have watched teams always have a harder time scoring when Howard is in.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Apr 4 2007, 09:14 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You can say badly outplayed, but Stoudemire barely even scored when Howard was on the court. When Howard was not on the court he got by Milicic and Battie fairly easily. The next game they played, Stoudemire was kept to 12 points, Howard stayed by him and kept Stoudemire from being able to take alot of shots.</div>I just checked the play by play, and Amare was scoring a lot when Dwight was on and off the court. And yes, he did badly outplay Dwight. Dwight scored 4pts and 3reb in less than 20min of play due to fouling out. Amare had 30/8/3. You will never see a statline as lobsided as that one between 2 superstars.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't know where you get your statistics from, but they are wrong. Teams shoot 46 percent against the Raptors compared the the Magic where teams shoot 44 percent. Now lots of people will say 2 percent is not much, but over the course of the game that is up four points more per game. At an NBA level four points can mean alot. And since they both hold teams to 35 percent from long range, that has to be made up somewhere, and inside the paint near the arc is that area.</div>No, no, no, you misread it. Both teams give about the same amount of close range shots compared to perimeter shots (82games.com). I gave this stat to show the Raptors don't get killed in close range shots. The majority of points both teams give up is on jumpshots.Remember, Raptors are a much faster paced team, and IMO the Magic have better perimeter defenders to help prevent slashing to the basket. It isn't only Bosh/Howard that control the defense.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As for the teams shooting a higher percentage, I have never seen a stat that says that at all. That seems like a baseless claim, so where have you seen that? Everytime I have watched teams always have a harder time scoring when Howard is in.</div>82 games, check the Magic's stats with him on and off the court. I'm not giving it much ground, it was just something related that I thought was interesting. It isn't something I'd use to spruce up my arguement, just thought I'd throw it in there since I found it while doing some searching around.I'm done arguing about this, especially since I agree with you that Dwight is the better defender. But I do not feel that he is a much better defender than Bosh, nor do I think he is a great defender. He isn't great at blocking shots, nor will he shut down an opposing big. He is a presence down low, but it is not because of his defensive skills (like how Ben Wallace at 6'9'' is).
I think something people are forgetting is the number of points Dwight gives up. I think today Dwight gave up like 4 or 6 points on goaltending. He does that every single damn time I see him. Hes a cherry picker, and will wait for you under the bucket until you rush at him. People say gaurds are scared of him, who wants to run at a 6-11 265 lb beast? Ive never seen Dwight lockdown anyone 1 on 1, and cant play on any side of the court more than 8 ft away from the basket. Sure the magic dont get the ball to him, he stands under the damn net! Theres like 3 or 4 defenders there. Dwight howard was no offensive repetoire, and his defensive game revolves around his 'shot altering' presence. Dont come up and tell me that Dwight Howard blows away Chris Bosh at defense, if Dwight Howard never leaves the paint. I also want to state that Dwight Howard is even terrible at scoring near the net, I believe he leads the NBA in turnovers and you would expect that if your going to stand around waiting for the rebound all day. Bosh IMO is more athletic, Dwight Howard can jump 12'6", but hes a turtle on the open court, and has no real endurance. You all make it look like Dwight Howard is the next Kareem Abdul Jabbar in the future. Bosh was at the same place if not better than Howard at his age, aside from rebounding and shotblocking. Bosh was a better leader, he still is, a team was ACTUALLY BUILT AROUND HIM, for all those of you who would say they would build a team around Howard more. I also want to add Howard's rebounding numbers didnt change at all, (he had 12 last year) while Bosh's have increased every year. Since Bosh's rookie year, he went from a speculated rookie, to a franchise player and all star. Bosh has shown the capacity to improve, yet you still say Howard will improve more. Now tell me boys, how much has Howard improved from his rookie year? +2 rebounds and +5 points, yeah hes turning out to be a monster.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (The Commissioner @ Mar 31 2007, 12:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Who ever picked Bosh got to be stupid. Dwight Howard is the next BIG THING. He is the next great center that will be a champion/MVP of the league. The guy is still developing and he's going to be a monster in the future. By the way, did yall see Magic/Pacers game last night? If you didnt watch the highlights...</div>Well, it is a lot closer match up than you make it seem like it is. Both of the players are really good. Chris Bosh is helping his team out and being a great tem in the East. Dwight is helping his team out and they have a playoff spot right now and are likely going to make it. So I'm going to still have to choose Chris Bosh if I was able to choose one of those two players.
Bosh...he can do it all..he has so much range for a big man and very good low post movesHe may not be the defensive presence that Howard is but just look at who the better is...with Bosh as the leader the Raptors are now a 45-win teamOrlando is struggling to make the playoffs right now barely with the 8th seedHoward is way too passive on offense and doesn't seem to have that killer instinct to take over at the end of games
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Go Warriors @ Apr 8 2007, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'></div>Errr... What?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart? @ Apr 8 2007, 11:41 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Errr... What?</div>I was just posting a picture of both players.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Bosh is 10 months older. Even in the future, I doubt Dwight can carry a team. You need to work on both sides of the floor, and for you to say that he shoots a higher percentage is because he takes much less shots, and they are all around the basket. Bosh creates shots for himself, He drives to the bucket, he can play both high and low post as well. Dont count out Bosh because he is not as big, or is averaging 1 or 2 less rebounds per game. Bosh is a more well rounded player and will get even better in the future. Its not crazy to say Bosh can be a 25 and 13/14 player in 1 or 2 years, he is already hovering around 23/11.</div>Bosh is a year and ten months older, not ten months.
