CJ "Hating"

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by blazerkor, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    Makes sense. There's very few robins that'd allow for "maximum efficiency" and I feel like the redundancy isn't much of a legitimate issue, or at least it hasn't been explained in true basketball terms to me.

    Get a coach who has a fluid offensive system that emphasizes ball movement and I feel like C.J. would play a better, less iso-heavy style of basketball and people would say that our backcourt is a perfect offensive fit together.
     
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  2. kjironman1

    kjironman1 The big dog around here.

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    I'm thinking this thread will stick around for awhile. Most likely the season?
    I think there has been a comparable thread pretty much every year since after the Memphis series that CJ played well and was expected to "Break Out" the following season 2015-16. He got "Most Improved Player" award.
    Every year since he has averaged over 20 points a game. Almost a 40% three point shooter for his career.
    I know very few players that can put up 50 in three quarters.

    Same story different year. CJ McCollum plays his game and he does it here under Damian Lillard. You want to hate on CJ so be it. This is a grass is greener situation for me.
     
  3. Buffalo Custard

    Buffalo Custard Well-Known Member

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    Part of the frustration here is that with Olshey as GM we are pinned between 2 non-negotiable points. He will not fire Stotts and he will not trade CJ. The organization has to constantly work around this inflexibility.
     
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  4. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    Not so sure I agree with that comp.
    I have never felt like Seth stopped the ball. He either took the immediate C&S or passed the ball.
     
  5. TBpup

    TBpup Writing Team

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    It's curious to me how discussing a player's pros but also bringing up the cons, constitutes 'hating'.
     
  6. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    He literally just acquired specific players to push Stotts and went as far as publically calling on him to improve. He's setting this year up to he a make or break year for Stotts.
     
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  7. BonesJones

    BonesJones https://www.youtube.com/c/blazersuprise

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    That's not hating.

    A lot of the CJ-related stuff on here is hating, though.
     
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  8. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    I'd say its often in the delivery. Its generally not a list of pros and cons, there's often far greater weight put into the discussion of the cons of his game by many. Or the pros part is an aside, yes he does this, BUT...
     
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  9. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    For me, it's always been that I see a lot more being harping continuously on the cons and forgetting the pros.

    When I see trade ideas for (insert random average starting wing who plays adequate defense) for CJ and a significant or at least vocal portion of the board even saying we couldn't get (insert random average starting wing who plays adequate defense) for CJ, it's ridiculous and I find it personally irritating because I see it so much.

    Like the post above, I think this is a grass is greener situation. Fans see us falling short and having some roster deficiency and act like almost every other team in the NBA since the salary cap was implemented didn't go through the same things and deal with it less effectively. A lot of players get more money than they're worth.

    There are any number of other things that could be blamed. One that sometimes gets thrown out there but never stays in the discussion for long is that Portland for whatever reason isn't a destination that any high-profile free agent is going to consider and you have to overpay for them. When you draft a star player -- and CJ is a star player, regardless of what some people will say -- you either need to hold onto them or you need to find someone as good or better for a similar price. Does anyone think the Blazers would get fair return on the trade market or in free agency for letting CJ go? I think the odds are pretty slim.

    Yeah, we passed on Giannis in the 2013 draft. So did 14 other teams. Look at the guys picked before CJ. How many teams do you think wish they'd selected him instead of the guy they took, being completely honest? None of those teams kept any of those guys, and, despite the fact that some people I'm sure will try to say "Otto Porter would be a better fit" ... I live in the east and know some Wizards fans that would think those people are out of their mind.

    I don't care about advanced metrics or offensive redundancy. THE single most valuable, rarest talent in basketball is finding a player who can get their own shot and make it against a good defender. It's easier to find a pick-setter/rebounder or a 3-and-D guy than it is someone who can put a team on his back and carry them offensively for stretches, and it makes things easier for everyone around them. And, no, Gary Trent is not going to be that guy, so just stop it.

    This is a case where great is the enemy of good. Or the bird in hand. Until someone can give me a really good example of an equal player the Blazers could have for equal value, I'm just going to think this is scapegoating or rationalizing why the Blazers don't do what only one team in the NBA does every year -- win it all.
     
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  10. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    Maybe because 90% of posts about CJ is negative. Reading this forum one might conclude CJ is the worst player on the team.
     
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  11. Tince

    Tince Well-Known Member

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    My point is that he is as good or better today than he was when he was offered his contract. So hating CJ because he was offered a contract above his value would be placing blame at the wrong person. It would be one thing if he was an All-NBA player who was giving his contract and then started to dog it after, but I don't see this as being one of those situations.
     
  12. Wizard Mentor

    Wizard Mentor Wizard Mentor

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    I definitely have these concerns, too. However, overall I would say that I am both a

    CJ Fan
    and a
    CJ Contract Hater


    Dunno, if that makes me a hater in whoever's eyes, but that's how I feel. He's ALMOST a bad contract, and the reason his trade value isn't much higher.
     
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  13. James lamphear

    James lamphear Well-Known Member

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    Your right he very good offense player and below average defender. My opinion if your not 2 way player your not worth over 30 million dollars a year.
     
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  14. Hoopguru

    Hoopguru Know where you are going or end up somewhere else!

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    With so many wings now at 6'6" and a couple that play tough D, I think you could see CJ playing ,more with the second unit, if indeed we have a lock down defender that can guard a larger dominate 2.
    Can CJ match up against D Mitchell, yes, can he match up against J Butler or D Booker, not really. This is where Id like to see DJJ, Hood or Trent match up and I think this year we will.
     
  15. James lamphear

    James lamphear Well-Known Member

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    I don't hate CJ I believe he is over paid for being one deminisonal with his game. Yes most 2 guard are scorers on defense but also should be one your best defenders too. When CJ plays when Dame is out he probably plays his best offense game with points and assist due he has to relie on the other players to help on offense. The same with Dame when CJ and Nurk went down at the end of the season couple years was the best I seen him play due to he had rely on other players to help him. It was more team basketball on the offense end in those 2 situation. But this offense that Stotts has is guard oriented offense with the guards read what the defense does against them and at times it prevents other players to get involved in the offense through out the game.
     
  16. Scalma

    Scalma Well-Known Member

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    In all seriousness, this season will be a good test for stotts, health permitting (LOL)

    What I mean is if CJ is having an off night, there really is no need to keep him out on the court, not with Hood and Trent around. Let’s see if Stotts actually has the balls to bench CJ when he’s struggling. I’ve yet to see him do it, so I have my doubts.
     
  17. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    Well, if Dame is having an off night would you want him to be benched as well? Can't have double standards can we? CJ has proven to be able to run the point guard position adequately. Problem with that methodology is prolific scorers like McCollum and Lillard can go o-7 and then run off 20 points in a flash. Benching them would eliminate that opportunity wouldn't it?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  18. kjironman1

    kjironman1 The big dog around here.

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    I sure hope so. Stotts has had enough time to get this team going. Now on the other side of that. I happen to believe with these pieces in place he can and will do very well.
    It's what we all want. We want the Blazers to succeed but if Stotts fails to get this group to mesh and playing well by the playoffs he probably will feel the heat. Rightfully so.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
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  19. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    CJ isn't as good on offense as some of his fans claim. He's a clever ball-handler who pounds the ball too much but only generates average overall efficiency. His TS% is right about at the NBA median. He was only in the 56th percentile in isolation possessions (Dame is 87th percentile; Simons & Hezonja were 80th percentile). That was 13.3% of his offense. 36% of his offense was as PnR ball-handler and he was only in the 71st percentile (Dame is 95th percentile). For comparison on the team, Trent was 67th percentile and Ariza was 74th percentile.

    those two types of possessions account for 50% of CJ's offense and he's only around the 66th percentile combined. That's above average but 1/3 of the league is better. Then you have to add 14.5% of CJ's possessions resulting in transition, and he's below average in the 45th percentile. That's now close to 2/3rds of his possessions and he's somewhere around 60th-62nd percentile

    On the other hand, CJ is in the 83rd percentile in spot-up possessions. And of players who averaged 25 minutes or more, CJ was 7th in the league in catch-and-shoot eFG%.

    essentially, that all means that when CJ's offense comes off his own dribble, it's mediocre. He only generates average efficiency, at best, in one-on-one. But when the team ball and player movement generates CJ's offense, he's bordering on elite. He dribbles the ball too damn much. By a lot. And perhaps his biggest issue, personally, on offense is that he's pathetic at getting to the FT line. Last year's .136 FT rate was terrible, and the worst of his career. CJ's assisted FG rate was 36% when it should have been in the 60-70% range. His usage and touch level are ok, but his dribble-frequency and touch-time should be cut by more than half

    this isn't really CJ's fault as much as it is Stotts and Olshey. Stotts should have long ago made CJ accountable for his efficiency/usage imbalance. There should be a lot more plays maximizing CJ's spot-up and catch-and-shoot abilities, and a lot fewer plays where CJ pounds the ball to death. But Stotts is also limited in what he can do because of Olshey's stubborn refusal to add players to the roster that can initiate offense. That's created the void that allows CJ to be a ball-hog.
     
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  20. Scalma

    Scalma Well-Known Member

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    not while dame has been available he hasn’t. Only time he’s played point guard like a point guard should has been when Dames been out.

    And off nights for Dame are rare, so not really worth thinking about.
     
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