CJ "Hating"

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by blazerkor, Nov 29, 2020.

  1. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    I don't expect CJ to be Dame. There are about 10 players in the entire NBA as good as Lillard. If that's the standard we make CJ live up to now, then neither he nor whoever we want to replace him is likely to meet our expectations.
     
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  2. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    This has been an enlightening thread. So far I've seen posters defend being critical of CJ by saying ...

    -- He can't defend guys who score on everyone.

    -- He doesn't make guys who have one foot out of the league capable offensive players.

    -- He's not as good as a Hall of Famer.

    But nah, no one "hates" on CJ. No one has unreasonable standards.

    Maybe we need a thread about CJ hater hating.
     
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  3. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    lol...who said any of those things?
     
  4. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    I don't expect him to be as good as Dame.

    However you'd think that he'd be able to be a reasonable faximally and replicate 85%-90% of what he does given his pay grade and his cache' within the organization (ie - Olshey holding him out of any trade negotiations). Honestly, I think that is what irritates me most.... CJ is a good/productive player who has some obvious warts in his game (maybe top 50-75 type player in the league). Olshey has CJ as 'off-limits' when his play doesn't warrant that level of respect. Dame needs some significant upgrade in supporting cast to truly contend.
     
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  5. kjironman1

    kjironman1 The big dog around here.

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    So you are say Damian Lillard is a better all around player than CJ McCollum.
     
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  6. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    and yet:

    https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/mccollums-stats-when-lillard-does-not-play

    It appears we already have what you want.
     
  7. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    First, I don't know about this off-limits thing. Who do you think is available that could be had to replace CJ that's not a big downgrade? I don't have a problem with not trading a player when we can't get back equal value, especially when we also aren't going to attract free agents of replacement value. Again, to me, this is hating ... when essentially you ignore what the guy adds to the team and you want to give him away for some hypothetical player who isn't out there.

    Second, you said you don't expect him to be Dame but you used Dame as the benchmark for what you expect him to be.
     
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  8. Buffalo Custard

    Buffalo Custard Well-Known Member

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    I take it you weren't around for the so-called "jailblazer" era? Sheed and Randolph were routinely condemned for not being as good as Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett. I remember fans saying that they actually were as good as those guys, but that they were lazy underachievers, blah, blah, blah. NO player on the current team is subjected to the level of vitriol we have seen in the past.

    The threshold for calling fans "haters" has gotten absurdly low.
     
  9. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    I wasn't around the message boards during that era, but I've been a fan since the Sidney Wicks days.
     
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  10. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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  11. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    In the last few years, there has been PG13 and Buttler. Either one is a significant upgrade from CJ. In both situations, we heard from media reports that CJ was not offered in the negotiations.

    Secondly - Dame makes $31.6M and CJ makes $29.3M. The next highest paid Blazer is RoCo at $12M. So if we're going to compare players, production, and winning impact - Dame seems like the logical comparison choice.
     
  12. Wizard Mentor

    Wizard Mentor Wizard Mentor

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    Oooops, missed CONTRACT. Many don't hate the player, they hate the contract - me included.
     
  13. tester551

    tester551 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, CJ generates great numbers when Dame is out of the game completely.

    Yet, it does not seem like we get to see that same CJ very frequently when Dame is playing...

    So the questions becomes:
    1) why?
    2) would everyone (Dame, CJ, and the Team) ultimately be better off if the pairing is separated? Many of us have been contending that would be the case for years.
     
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  14. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    I pretty much hate all large contracts and CJ is only the 28th highest paid player in the league and will drop as a few more top signings are put in their respective slot. I tend not to worry too much about contracts though. I care about production on the floor.
     
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  15. Wizard Mentor

    Wizard Mentor Wizard Mentor

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    Percentage of salary cap is a much more important stat.
     
  16. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone point me to where to find stats for when players play with or without a different teammate? Not for games missed, but like for example, cj when Trent is in the game versus not, etc.? I know I have seen them and used them before, and for the life of me can't remember where from
     
  17. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    1) Why? Because Dame is the alpha dog of this team and all things run through Lillard. Lillard is number 1 option and McCollum is number 2 option. What we see is a tandem of guards that are one of the best scoring tandems in the league and a nightmare for teams to defend.


    2) Yes they could and no they may not. Nobody can say either way and nobody knows what the market could bring back. As for Paul George, it appears he likely would have bolted to LA (his home town) and we would be without McCollum and George. Would you have been okay with that?

    The reason I posted that stat is because I believe you and some others have been dogging on CJ's numbers when he plays PG. Stats suggest otherwise.
     
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  18. Big Dog

    Big Dog Active Member

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    Well the salary cap is the same for all teams so anyone making around the same as CJ will be of the same percentage for his team. This year we have the 18th and 28th highest paid player tandem. Compared to some other teams:

    Portland: 18th and 28th highest
    Houston: 2nd and 4th
    Phoenix: 2nd and 27th
    Washington: 4th and 29th
    LA Clippers: 9th and 12th

    Two of those teams didn't even make the playoffs. McCollum has made the playoffs every year of his career.

    these are just a few
     
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  19. WesleyMatthews

    WesleyMatthews Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have Dame stats for minutes played without CJ? That would be interesting. I suspect they both benefit greatly from playing with each other.

    The team has been so terrible with both of them sitting the same minutes that they should have their rest nearly 100% staggered.
     
  20. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    depending on what you're looking for there is the lineup page at bbref. You can get to it by hovering over the 'more pages' selection on team home:

    upload_2020-12-1_9-39-12.png

    https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/POR/2020/lineups/

    it will give you 5-man, 4-man, 3-man, & 2-man lineups. Unfortunately it only lists the 20 most used combos in each category, and it's mainly just raw 100-possessions stats. No advanced metrics except for eFG% which is a pretty flawed stat
     
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