Dame on Brandon Roy

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by DDolla, Jul 30, 2022.

  1. UncleCliffy'sDaddy

    UncleCliffy'sDaddy Circling the bowl.....

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    I know that as an old timer I'll get some eye rolls for trotting out what is ancient history for most on this site but.......Lloyd Neal is without a doubt one of the most (if not THE most) under appreciated Blazers of all time. You would have had to watch him over the course of his career to "get" it. He was 6'7" at most, but if you tracked his advanced stats (that didn't exist when he played) he would have been at the top (or over) on most charts. His rebounding alone for his size was truly impressive. And no matter what, the guy kept his head down, his mouth shut and his butt in high gear. The year following the championship the Blazers were the hottest team in the league and almost a lock for another championship. When Walton went down, Portland (literally) hardly missed a beat because Neal stepped in and over the course of the next 4-5 games averaged twenty plus points AND rebounds per game. And we kept winning. Then HIS knees went and THAT is when their wheels actually fell off of that team. I still believe we would have won a ring that year if Neal had stayed healthy, Walton be damned. Which also underlines how much Twardzik, Steele, Hollins, et al meant to team. It's only if we win another championship that people will truly understand how important the role players are compared to the "stars".......and then they'll understand the reverence with which we hold them.....and why.
     
  2. tykendo

    tykendo Don't Tread On PDX

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    Neal was awesome in his role. Johnny Davis was amazing as well. Twardzik was good. He wasn't Johnny D.
     
  3. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    Walton's last game was 2/28 that season. Neal played one more game after Walton went down, where he scored 3 points got 1 rebound and they lost by 11 to the Knicks. Then he too was done for the season. Seems the reverence in which we hold role players sometimes makes us forget what they actually achieved on the court?

    Advanced stats exist for old guys. It's the beauty of stats. They might not have been tracked at the time, but you can always go back and figure them out. Lloyd Neals PER for his career was 15.4. 15 is essentially league average. His TRB% for his career was 15.5. His WS/48 was under .1 for his career. He had negative OBPM. DBPM, and BPM for his career. His advanced stats weren't at the top of any chart. He was basically league average. There is no way in hell he should have his number retired. It's essentially like if we won a title in 08-09, and decided we should retire Joel Przybilla's number.
     
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  4. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus They don't do much, you know Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Are you suggesting that Przybilla doesn't deserve to have his name in the rafters?! HOW DARE YOU SIR!
     
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  5. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus They don't do much, you know Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    Looking at our franchise history, it seems Roy belongs on the same level as Sidney Wicks. 5 years with the franchise, ROY, a few all-star games, and the team didn't accomplish anything during his tenure. Absent the awards/honors, the same could be said about Kiki's tenure, which like Roy's was marked by a lot of scoring, no playoff series wins, and was surpassed by a longer-tenured, future HOF teammate when his time in Portland ended prematurely due to significant injury.

    Wicks, Kiki, Roy--all important to the franchise history, but none belong in the rafters.
     
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  6. UncleCliffy'sDaddy

    UncleCliffy'sDaddy Circling the bowl.....

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    And you've just underlined how I have always felt about advanced stats. They're just numbers (and way overblown IMHO). They don't come anywhere near telling the complete story. And they don't account in any way, shape or form for the intangibles that can separate players with identical stats. Nor do they factor in quality of/chemistry with their teammates. And I remember Neal playing at least 4 games after Walton was injured just as I detailed (before Neal himself became injured). Details get fuzzy after 44 years....and a brief internet search produced nothing definitive. The loss of Walton hurt us, but losing Neal was the coffin lid being nailed down (we had to bring ancient Dale Schlueter out of retirement just to get a back up center). But I haven't forgotten what Neal achieved on the court, both stat and heart wise. Time does not change that. I hope I'm still alive if/when Portland wins another championship, just so I can the observe the massive change in perspective the majority of (younger) SC2 members will have when they look at the players who helped make it happen. Trust me, you will never again look at them the same way.
     
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  7. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not trying to take anything away from role players. I understand their value. They just aren't guys that should have their numbers retired.
    It's funny that YOU mentioned advanced stats, and how they would surely reflect him being at the top, but when shown that there are advanced stats for him, they're basically rubbish? Ok. You may remember him playing games after Walton went down, but they absolutely did not happen that way, as I stated. He played 1 game and he sucked. I don't know what you mean by nothing definitive. There are game logs for the season. That's as definitive as it gets.
     
  8. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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  9. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    Fact is, no matter his heart, no matter his hustle and whatever, he was a bench player on the title team and the season following. He was 10th! in minutes per game. Our 10th man! for the title team. The following year was under 20 mpg as well. Those aren't players who you retire their number. Our most recent WCF team, that was basically Jake Layman. Hang it up in the rafters!!
    Like I said, it's basically retiring Joel Przybilla's number if we won a title that year. He had tons of heart and hustle and chemistry and yadda yadda. I'm not going to downplay what he brought to our team. It's not the sort of player who you honor with that sort of distinction, however.
    His number was retired almost entirely because we won our only title while he was on the team. He played less than 11 mpg in the playoffs that year. Pivotal! I wonder if the Milwaukee Bucks will retire Pat Connaughton's jersey when his career is over.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2022
  10. tykendo

    tykendo Don't Tread On PDX

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    Sometimes we let our heart do the talking. And sometimes stats don't tell the whole story. But bottom line is, there are way to many numbers retired to guys , who didn't deserve that honor. I see Walton, Drexler, and i'm cool with 77 for Ramsay. A Ring Of Honor, suggested earlier would be a great way to solve this. Because , to me, Porter, Williams, Kersey & Jim Paxson should be in a Blazers Ring Of Fame. Roy & LaMarcus (when he retires).
     
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  11. tykendo

    tykendo Don't Tread On PDX

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    Petrie as well. Wicks had some amazing years, but that was before my Blazers fandom started.
     
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  12. Ed O

    Ed O Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    No, he doesn't deserve to have his number retired.

    And MAYBE he'd be the best all-time Blazer if (a) he'd stayed healthy, and (b) he would have played his whole career as a Blazer. But that's two big "buts".

    Who's the top five of guys who started (or darn-near did so, so no Pippen-type allowed, but I'd let Rasheed slip in there) his career as a Blazer, would have stayed entirely healthy, and would have stayed a Blazer?

    Off the top of my head:
    1. Bill Walton
    2. Greg Oden
    3. Damian Lillard
    4. Clyde Drexler (although if he had been a Blazer his whole career and not kinda mailed it in, maybe he would have been higher)
    5. Brandon Roy...?
    Maybe Sam Bowie lands up there somewhere. Or Rasheed Wallace.

    Who else?
     
  13. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    They played well enough to help deliver our only championship. And they did it against one of the first super teams.
     
  14. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Jack Ramsay said Twardzik (correction GROSS, not Twardzik) outplayed Dr J in that series. I'm on board with retiring those guys.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2022
  15. RR7

    RR7 Well-Known Member

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    Player A 30.3 ppg /6.8 rpg /5 apg / 2.7 spg / 1.1 BPG / 54% FG / 42/49, 86% FT / 2.8 PFs / 41.3 MPG

    Player B 6.7 ppg / 1.3 rpg / 1.5 apg / 1 spg / .2 bpg / 46% FG / 14/22, 64% FT / 2.5 PFs / 16.2 MPG

    Which one played better?!

    Gimme a break. It takes a Mike Barrett level of homerism to say or believe that shit.
     
  16. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Actually, you know what, Dr Jack said Gross (not Twardzik) outplayed Dr J. That was my bad.
     
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